Oct 11-17 Discussion - led by Connor Holtz

[Buffy Summers]

Connor Holtz you can post your topic here 🙂

 

[Connor Holtz]

Topic: Daniel Holtz. Now, my question to you is this --
I know most you see it as the name of the show is Angel so you identify with him as the hero through his best and his worst but is Daniel Holtz really the villain? Let's look at this objectively. Back in the 1760's/70's, Holtz was a mortal man who believed in righteous things and protecting the innocent. He risked his life eradicating the world of those who feed off the souls lost in the darkness and in the process, he helped the helpless. Sounds familiar, right? This is of course was before a vicious vampire and his lover, who got sick of this righteous man constantly getting in his way, murdered the man's wife, killed his infant son, and turned his only daughter, forcing him to throw his OWN daughter out into the sunlight. You can hardly blame a man, fueled with grief and vengeance, for wanting to exact some "justice" against the fiend who took his family from him.
So, after a winded introduction into the topic, the question again is: Daniel Holtz, do you really see him as the villain?
And I'll leave you with this --

...every time you look upon his face - every time he calls you 'father' - you will be reminded of that which you took and can never give back.

Episodes to Review: Offspring, Quickening, Lullaby, Dad, Loyalty, Sleep Tight, A New World, Benediction, Tomorrow.

 

[xfivebyfive]

Okay, I don't think Holtz was a villain from the beginning. He was seeking revenge on the vampires that murdered his family. He saw what he was doing as good, ridding the world of these demons. But as he gets more wrapped up in his hatred and revenge against Angelus, who isn't around anymore, he becomes the villain. And taking Connor made him the villain. Connor was an innocent child whose life he destroyed by taking him to a hell dimension.

 

[Tome]

Well, I don't particularily like Holtz. I got why he was seeking revenge, and he had the right to want it, but when he started being blind to the innocents he harmed along the way, I just couldn't root for him at anymore. He wouldn't have said things like 'all I want is Angel, kill the others', if he was sincerely a good man. He didn't care about what happened to anyone as long as he got his revenge.

When he came back from Quor'Toth, I actually freaking believed he had realized he had went too far with his revenge... But then he actually just manipulated Connor even more for him to sink his father to the bottom of the ocean. So yea, not a big fan of that guy.

 

[zobothehobo]

What happened to Hotlz was awful. Angelus and Darla took his family from him and destroyed his life. But that does not give him the right to do what he did to Angel... and to Connor. He took that boy out of a loving caring environment and put him in a hell dimension to grow up in. There's no excuse for that. And then what he did when he came back... when he died... He had to lie to make Angel look like a bad guy. He had to lie to make Connor hate Angel. He took the father/son relationship they could have had and destroyed it.

Again, what happened to Hotlz was awful, but an eye for an eye is never ok. Neither is destroying an innocent boy's childhood. Thank God Angel paired with WR&H to give Connor back that childhood Hotlz stole from him.

 

[Zeppo]

I think Holtz was totally justified. I liked how simple a foil he was: pure and simple revenge. He got revenge in the worst way, taking his family to replace the one Angel(us) took from him.

By the time he came back and manipulated Justine into making it look like Angel killed him, that was going really far. Jealousy by that time, maybe? Angel could give Connor what he no longer could anymore.

I liked how he needed "warriors who were willing to die for his cause." Totally mission driven. Holtz as a villian was a bit generic in motive which is why he might be boring to some but fascinating to me. They weren't innocent either, they all lost someone in the same vien as Holtz. Were they willing to die? I think a part of them were, it was dangerous work.

I don't think he is a hero, he's only trying to give himself solice. Is Angel a hero in this case? Well, considering it was Angelus who caused it and Angel has to deal with it and protect those around him over it ... I'm not sure. Haha. If anything, he is more so than Holtz as he's not protecting anything while Angel is.

 

[caitaintdead]

You can hardly blame a man for seeking revenge, but it doesn't make it okay.

I can hardly blame Willow for avenging Tara's death, but it doesn't make it okay, and it DOES make DarkWillow a Villain rather than a Hero. It is the same deal with Holtz. (Although Angel may not be human, he has a soul, which is similar enough for this comparison).

If someone took away someone that I love, there is every possibility that I would do everything I could to take their life... It's not okay though.

 

[Wishing Oceans]

I think that it depends on how you define "villain".

He was certainly an antagonist, but does offering opposition to the protagonist (as antagonist is defined) really equal being a villain?

I doubt it. Villains are characterized as being wicked and deliberately evil. Holtz did not commit harsh deeds in the name of sadism, but in honest vengeance. He had been wronged; in a way, it was poetic justice.

So yeah, he did some bad things. But he certainly wasn't evil, he just didn't share our (general) perspective on Angel.

In Angel's words... He was a righteous man.

 

[Tome]

I think that it depends on how you define "villain".

He was certainly an antagonist, but does offering opposition to the protagonist (as antagonist is defined) really equal being a villain?

I doubt it. Villains are characterized as being wicked and deliberately evil. Holtz did not commit harsh deeds in the name of sadism, but in honest vengeance. He had been wronged; in a way, it was poetic justice.

So yeah, he did some bad things. But he certainly wasn't evil, he just didn't share our (general) perspective on Angel.

In Angel's words... He was a righteous man.

Righteous man... yea ok! 😛 More like a crazy and vengeful old dude from the past. If he was really a good man, he wouldn't have risked bunch of people lives... Nor screwed up an innocent life(Connor). I get his point of view, but in no way does that makes him a 'righteous' man.

 

[Wishing Oceans]

Righteous man... yea ok! 😛 More like a crazy and vengeful old dude from the past. If he was really a good man, he wouldn't have risked bunch of people lives... Nor screwed up an innocent life(Connor). I get his point of view, but in no way does that makes him a 'righteous' man.

Was he crazy, really? It seemed to me that he was just a man who had nothing to live for. The only thing that kept him going was a need for revenge. I mean c'mon, Angel murdered his whole family. 😉

Everyone believes in their own causes. He had lost too much to really care about possible destruction to others.

Did he really screw Connor up? He loved Connor and trained him to be agile, strong, persistent, and a good fighter.

Hey, just quoting Angel.

 

[StarSlayer]

At the beginning, I really didn't see Holtz as the villain. He thought Angel was Angelus, the vampire who killed his family. However, I saw him more as the villain as the season progressed. When he found out Angel had a soul and Darla was pregnant, he still wanted to seek revenge. It didn't matter that Angel was now good and felt bad about what he did to Holtz. Holtz then didn't want to kill Angel. He wanted to make him suffer and the way to do that was to take his son. An eye for an eye almost. For me, when Holtz made that decision, he really became a villain.

 

[zobothehobo]

Was he crazy, really? It seemed to me that he was just a man who had nothing to live for. The only thing that kept him going was a need for revenge. I mean c'mon, Angel murdered his whole family. 😉

Everyone believes in their own causes. He had lost too much to really care about possible destruction to others.

Did he really screw Connor up? He loved Connor and trained him to be agile, strong, persistent, and a good fighter.

Hey, just quoting Angel.

If he had just kidnapped and raised Connor, your argument would be valid... But he took him to a hell dimension. I don't care how much he "loved" Connor... he hated Angel more. And he knowingly and willingly decided to raise Connor in hell. He took a human baby to hell.

 

[BuffyElevated]

Even though I never liked Holtz as a character, I felt for him. I could understand his need for vengeance in the beginning (and by "beginning", I mean in the flashback scenes that showed his actions right after Angelus and Darla killed his family), but for that vengeance to span for so many years I think it drove him to insanity and that's when he became the villain.

 

[StarSlayer]

And he knowingly and willingly decided to raise Connor in hell. He took a human baby to hell.

When you say it like that, it really does make Holtz a villain. I'm feeling more sympathetic toward Connor now, even though he still annoys me, lol!

 

[zobothehobo]

When you say it like that, it really does make Holtz a villain. I'm feeling more sympathetic toward Connor now, even though he still annoys me, lol!

He annoys me too... but I didn't hate him until he came back from hell. I know he was only a baby when he went to hell... but I have NEVER connected with a TV character as quickly and strongly as I connected with that little baby boy. I fell completely in love with him when Darla was in labor. I think he would have been a great kid if Hotlz hadn't stolen his childhood and used him as a weapon against Angel.

 

[Joan the Vampire Slayer]

Daniel Holtz, do you really see him as the villain?

Absolutely. I do not choose to view his character sympathetically. Holtz had a choice, and he choose to do evil, manipulate those around him, and be an all-around bastard.

That said, Holtz's personal vendetta towards Darla and Angelus was, in my opinion, justified. Was, key word. Darla and Angel slaughtered his family viciously and without remorse. Yeah, that's bad, but it's what vampires do. They didn't just kill them, Angelus raped his wife and turned his daughter. When Holtz returned and realized Angel had changed - that he had a soul now - he should have backed off, and he certainly should have never brought Conner into it, or any other people for that matter. Holtz was not interested in justice, as he claimed, he was interested in revenge - a very different thing. Stealing Conner to hurt Angel was selfish and put Conner in danger, not to mention damaging him beyond repair. Conner was an innocent in this. He had nothing to do with what his father did all those years ago. I also dislike how Holtz manipulated Justine for his own devices, and clearly used her feelings for him as leverage.

On the flipside, I pity Holtz, because he was a broken man, clearly obsessed with revenge so much so that he lost himself, and probobly did things he never thought he would because he wanted a child so badly.

The look on Angel's face when he sees Holtz take Conner is about one of the saddest things in the whole show.

Was Holtz a villian? Definitely. But he was human, which makes him all the more interesting.