October 16th-22nd Episode Discussion Led by Willow My Love

[Willow My Love]

We all saw how Giles treated Willow after she killed Warren. He treated her with compassion, respect, and love. He helped her gain control of her power. He "went all Dumbledore" on her.

But the fact is, Willow killed a human. Shouldn't she have been governed by human laws, like Faith? Like Buffy said Warren should have been? Shouldn't Willow have been taken into custody by the proper authorities, not given a vacation in England?

What if it were Amy that had done this? Would she have been locked away, or would Giles have tried to help her too?

 

[Valjavertjinn]

You're right, and I never really thought of this. I guess he was kind of scared that she'd go all Crazy-Evil-Willow again if handled roughly, but she still should have had to do something to compensate.

 

[brinkster130]

Yes, she should have been governed by human law. But the fact is Willow was like family to the other Scoobies so they looked the other way and showed her leniency that wasn't shown to others. I don't think their reaction would have been the same if it was another person (outside their group) who killed Warren.

 

[Selfless705]

I think, that the situation is obviously different from a normal murder. As locking her up wouldn't stop her if she wanted to get out. However, I do think that it wasn't her that killed him, it was her power. And the fact that Willow is capable of doing it again, letting her emotions take control of her power and ultimately become evil again would be quite scary.

But, I dont think that we can use the same rules for the supernatural and for humans.

I dont think Giles would have been there to help Amy, and I think the reason he did with Willow is because he knew her, and knew that what happened wasnt who she is. With Amy, it would be different, as Amy wouldnt have anyone like Giles and the scooby gang to help her out. And would probably, like Amys mother was, end up having to be stopped by another supernatural force, or another witch.

All in all, I think legal custody wouldnt have worked, and it was either try to help her, or defeat her which would end up in either death or some sort of encapturement. And the amount that she had been through with the gang would have made it hard to do that, especially the prior.

 

[NY State of Mind]

Who is Giles to judge...he killed a human too *cough* Ben *cough*

 

[Valjavertjinn]

Giles also killed Randal (It's mentioned in The Dark Age). I wonder if there were any complications with that? There probably were, becuase I believe that he was in school at the time.

 

[Icarium]

But the fact is, Willow killed a human.

She also killed Rack, so make that two humans.

Shouldn't she have been governed by human laws, like Faith?

It would have been impossible to prove anything against her and in any case she could escaped from jail whenever she wanted, so ordinary judicial system would have been completely useless. Maybe the Initiative or the Watcher's council could have held Willow securely though.

And of course, there was the whole uncertainty about the extent of which the "dark magicks" controlled Willow's actions. But still, as much as I love Willow, her getting scot-free after trying to freaking destroy the world was just another reason to think late seasons was one of the most amoral shows BtVS on TV. I like grey characters but that doesn't mean the writers should turn everybody into a murderer just so they can proclaim how "darker and edgier" the show had become. Darker and edgier requires at last some realistic repercussions for bad actions, not retcons and sweeping under the carpet.

 

[Willow My Love]

And of course, there was the whole uncertainty about the extent of which the "dark magicks" controlled Willow's actions. But still, as much as I love Willow, her getting scot-free after trying to freaking destroy the world was just another reason to think late seasons was one of the most amoral shows BtVS on TV. I like grey characters but that doesn't mean the writers should turn everybody into a murderer just so they can proclaim how "darker and edgier" the show had become. Darker and edgier requires at last some realistic repercussions for bad actions, not retcons and sweeping under the carpet.

That's exactly my point. We all know I adore Willow, but she got off so easily. And no repercussions from her friends either. They just didn't care.

 

[zobothehobo]

Willow suffered from an addiction to her power. What Giles did was what she needed. I do think that yes, she should have been punished under human law for the crime she had committed... but she would have probably just broken herself out if she didn't have the emotional support she needed. She needed to learn how to manage the power she had... which is what the coven did. Without that, she would have been going in cycles of lashing out with her power and extreme amounts of guilt.

 

[Gum Gnome33]

I basically agree with what's been said.
Should she have been punished under human law? Yes. Could she have been? No.
Did Giles do the right thing? Absolutely. The best way to manage the situation was to help heal Willow, not to try to punish her further or to continue ignoring her addiction which had a lot to do with the reason she got to such a dark place so quickly. I mean quite frankly, it was the best thing for all of them. Had Giles not helped her out, who's to say she wouldn't have gotten worse?
Was it bizarre that none of her friends had anything much to say to her about trying to end the world in season 7? Yes. Sure they loved her and were glad that she was "back to normal" ie not killing people, but I think trying to end the world and trying to kill your friends does warrant some sort of reaction by said friends in the future.

Oh but then again, Anya put everyone in a Wishverse in which they all died in season 3, but nobody holds that against her for the rest of the show because, well, she was just doing her job. At least there's some consistency regarding inappropriate reactions in Sunnydale.

 

[BuffyElevated]

I have to applaud you for this topic! Most Willow fans I've come across here and on other forums would defend her with their dying breath for what she did to Warren and how she was treated afterwards.
I do think Willow got off way too easily. One thing that has always angered me about the show is that there was such a double standard when it came to Willow and how she was treated post Season 6 and how Faith was treated post Season 3. I know that there were a lot of other reasons why Buffy kept Faith at arms length, but that's a whole other thread. But think about it; she was so quick to want Faith to go to jail and serve time for the crimes she committed. Where was that conviction when Willow killed Warren? Maybe because Faith didn't kill someone who had once tried to kill Buffy herself, the way Warren had?

 

[NY State of Mind]

Well I don't even know if they wanted to punish Faith...I think Giles and co. would of wanted to help her but things just didn't go right with her lying and the council getting involved, etc.

 

[Willow My Love]

I have to applaud you for this topic! Most Willow fans I've come across here and on other forums would defend her with their dying breath for what she did to Warren and how she was treated afterwards.

I do believe Warren deserved to die for what he did. He showed no remorse at all for killing those women. He was happy when he thought he killed Buffy, and he showed little emotion after killing Katrina. I do believe it's right that he died. And I do kinda love how he died...

But I don't think it's right that Willow gets coddled after that. Willow's reaction to her love dying is somewhat applauded, but Buffy's reaction after Angel dies is seen as such a horrifying thing...

I think the way she was treated after what she did made her be this soft little one dimensional character in s7. She doesn't really have any good story lines. Yeah, she turns into Warren, but I hardly think that's even a dose of what she really deserved.

(And thank you for the applause. 😉 )

 

[Gum Gnome33]

I think one issue that potentially further complicates all of this is that we're never really told how much Willow's urge to destroy the world and kill her friends is a result of the extreme power she'd absorbed and whether she was able to control herself much at that point; in other words, how much of "Willow" was still in there, after she'd killed Warren?

Lots of people agree that her killing of Warren was at least understandable, (even if they think she should have been punished under human laws), though of course no one understands why she was ready to destroy everyone she'd ever loved. Something seemed to really shut down within her while this demonic entity took over as a result of the dark magic she'd summoned after Tara died.
We could say, potentially, that the reason the scoobies are so quick to forgive her is because they truly believe that she was no longer Willow when she finally crossed the line into complete destructiveness. There are certainly implications throughout season 7 that powerful magic could lead to a relapse, which suggests that dark Willow was truly a result of the darkness she'd channeled and that there was a complete lack of control that followed. But because this is never established as a clear reason for her behavior, it's hard to say for sure why tolerate it the way they do.

 

[Goby]

This thread is BLASPHEMY!!! I will not tolerate such words being said about my beloved Willow!!!! 😡

Ok, in all seriousness, she may have done something wrong. But much like the CIA, she and the other Scoobies should have a "license to kill." We never complain about James Bond killing people, do we? The Scoobies are eradicating evil forces. How many thousands or millions of lives were saved by them killing a human or two?

Giles did the absolute right thing when he killed Ben. I think an argument could be made that Buffy did the wrong thing by not killing the Mayor sooner.

If you people intend to try Willow for murder, I will offer to represent her pro bono. 😛

 

[Icarium]

Giles did the absolute right thing when he killed Ben. I think an argument could be made that Buffy did the wrong thing by not killing the Mayor sooner.

Personally I am totally for the Scoobies killing the human culprits who couldn't be handled by police and the courts; their leniency in these matters led to quite a few deaths which pisses me off. But in Warren's case, he could have easily been sent to jail, which makes his case far different. And Rack might be a drug dealer but that's not exactly a capital offence, is it?

 

[Willow My Love]

How much of "Willow" was still in there, after she'd killed Warren?

Lots of people agree that her killing of Warren was at least understandable, (even if they think she should have been punished under human laws), though of course no one understands why she was ready to destroy everyone she'd ever loved. Something seemed to really shut down within her while this demonic entity took over as a result of the dark magic she'd summoned after Tara died.

But because this is never established as a clear reason for her behavior, it's hard to say for sure why tolerate it the way they do.

It was the magic she absorbed from Giles that caused her to go over the edge and try to kill everyone. He said it himself, he wanted it to appeal to the last shred of humanity she had. And it did. She felt all the pain the world was in, and wanted to stop it. That's why she tried to end the world.

So, arguably, is was her humanity that threw her over the edge and made her all one with the apocalypse.

Personally I am totally for the Scoobies killing the human culprits who couldn't be handled by police and the courts; their leniency in these matters led to quite a few deaths which pisses me off. But in Warren's case, he could have easily been sent to jail, which makes his case far different. And Rack might be a drug dealer but that's not exactly a capital offence, is it?

Warren was a total sociopath. He really didn't have any emotion about the people around him. That's probably how Andrew believed him enough for the first to take over and convince him to kill Andrew, but that's another topic.

Even if Warren were rehabilitated, I don't think his outlook would have changed. He felt no remorse until he was caught and death loomed over his head.

But Willow did feel remorse. You can see that in s7. I just really don't think she got enough punishment.

 

[Icarium]

Warren was a total sociopath.

Arguably so was Anya who killed far more people than him. I am not saying Warren would have surely reformed (although if Faith did, why not Warren?), but the point is if the rationale for killing him wasn't vengeance but the preventing him from committing more murders, a jail sentence probably would have sufficed. He might have even been given a death sentence - but from a judge and a jury, not a vigilante with a very personal motive for killing him.

 

[sk]

I think they did the right thing. Not much would have gained by throwing Willow into jail.
If anything it would probably been dangerous. She needed rehabilitation, learn how to not go dark Willow again. That was much more important than to punish her imho.

/SK

 

[Willow My Love]

Arguably so was Anya who killed far more people than him. I am not saying Warren would have surely reformed (although if Faith did, why not Warren?), but the point is if the rationale for killing him wasn't vengeance but the preventing him from committing more murders, a jail sentence probably would have sufficed. He might have even been given a death sentence - but from a judge and a jury, not a vigilante with a very personal motive for killing him.

In addition to my reputation comment, Warren would have lived another 20 or so years. And who knows what he could have done from inside prison walls. I'm not saying Willow was perfectly correct in killing him, I'm just saying he deserved what he got. A swift death. He only admitted he was wrong after Willow started driving the bullet through him.