Official Discussion: 7.17 - Lies My Parents Told Me

I really liked this episode. I was very intriqued by the showing of William's mother and their relationship. I wondered what it was that she had done to cause such an emotional reaction that song, but then they showed us.

When Robin took Spike back to his garage filled with crosses and he started playing that song, I could have killed the man. I couldn't understand how he could be so stupid. He would never have a chance against evil or good spike. I'm actually kind of upset that Spike didn't kill him.

The whole Giles/Robin tricking Buffy kind of made me mad. But I can see where Giles was coming from. Some of you I've read are upset with the choice Giles made, but you have to remember that he was doing what he thought was best. He just doesn't realize how much Buffy needs Spike right now. I think on a mental level, Buffy needs Spike there so she knows she's not the only one strong enough to protect everyone. That and the fact that I think she is still in love with him. You can see it in the way she treats him. I think Anya said it right when she said that there was some sort of "get out of jail free card" I think she said, when it comes to Spike. Buffy's not ready to be the only one there who knows what it's like to be dead or be the only one strong enough to fight till the end. I expect some more closeness between Buffy and Spike, and some distance and tension between Buffy and Giles and also Robin. I think she'll be more forgiving of Robin, cause I think she just feels betrayed by Giles. he is like a father to her, and then he goes and tricks her. I think that's where they get the father part of parents. Giles is her father, or as close to it as she has. and he pretty much lied to her.

Well, that's enough rambling for me.

Cate
 
I'd like to know how anyone could side with Buffy over Giles and Wood. Buffy was just plain wrong. I like Spike, but the guy was a ticking timebomb and should have been dusted long before he even got his soul back. In the end things worked out, but it could have gone much differently and Buffy just refused to see that because she still has feelngs for Spike. But then, that's Buffy. I've noticed her becoming much more hypocritical.

Anya's a threat, run off and stick her to a wall with a sword. Faith's a threat, jab her in the gut with a knife. Spike's a threat, coddle him. Angel's a threat, put things off until he almost destroys the whole world. Willow's a threat, put things off. She seeks to protect those closest to her and goes for the juglar with everyone else.

She acts as though she is all that stands between the world and it's end. She questions her friends usefulness but they've all helped save both her and the world. Xander alone has been party to bringing her back to life twice and saving the world at least seven times (twice on his own... remember evil Willow?Remember the bomb in the highschool boilerroom that would have obliterated the rest of the gang leaving the Hellmouth wide open?). Meanwhile, she says that only her opinion matters and that she's better than everyone else. She isn't. Wonder why she doesn't seem to acknowledge that Xander has managed to save the planet WITHOUT the aid of superpowers. Now that is something to write home about, for a Slayer on the other hand it's her job. That is where the problem begins. She talks about how she has lost so much in being the Slayer. That the life and its demands are too hard. That she must make all the hard decisions. The Scoobies lead the same life. They fight side by side to save the world. They do so by choice. They don't complain. The need for her to make hard decisions on her own was her choice. The Slayer is a warrior not a judge. Something tells me the First Slayer wasn't making a lot of hard decisions. It's just not part of the job, it's not what a Slayer is. She need to start listening to the people around her.

She's the Slayer, she hits things real hard. That's her superpower. She isn't wise and all knowing but she seems to think that her decisions are not to be questioned. Why could dusting Angelus be put off until after his reign of terror and his killing of Ms. Calender, but Anya had to die immediately?Sometimes I get the feeling that she doesn't think and that when she does she seems to think with her crotch more often than your average guy. She is quickly becoming one of my least favorite characters on the show. People say that they dislike her new take charge attitude, I'm fine with it, I'm just not fond her new holier-than-thou 'tude.

I think Giles needs to slap heck out of her. Let's face it, he's a guy who can make hard decisions. He killed Ben and was willing to kill Spike. At the end of season one he sent Buffy off to what he thought was her certain doom. That's what Giles does and he does it regardless of his feelings. Guess Buffy still does have something to learn from him.
 
This episode was just oustanding, it's the kind of episode that makes me love this series... we have everything... the flashback, as always were great... i loved the entire "spike sired his mother in order to save her from dying but by doing that he actually killed her"
I loved the entire Wood-Spike thing, i wasn't as pissed with giles as most of you because he has the right to be concerned...
 
This ep had me hooked from the very beginning!! It was so cool to see Spike and Nikki fight it out at the beginning. By the way, the actress that plays Nikki is my roommate's cousin!!! I know someone that is related to a famous person. I'm giddy!! hehe Anyway, back to the ep. It was good to see Drusilla again. I really love the flashbacks in Buffy. They help us to understand so much more about the characters. Spike as a nerd is just too funny and a little sweet. It's hard to imagine a man that sweet could turn into such a killer demon. Anyway, I have to say that it was a great ep again. It totally made up for that terrible "Storyteller" ep.🙄 🙄
 
Really good episode.

I liked the flashbacks. I liked seeing Drusilla again. She's always cool.

Also, I liked having the song explained; that was neat. I'd been wondering about it ever since we first heard it when The First kept using it to activate Spike.
THE FIRST (as Spike): How could you use a poor maiden so?

I love that Wood used the Macintosh iTunes program to play "Early One Morning"! That was great! I like to think he probably downloaded it from the Internet after he found out it was Spike's trigger.

About Spike's mom: After he vamps her, Spike's mom says a lot of nasty things. Are these true things or lies? The answer is that even if they're true, they're lies. 🙂 People are very complex. Each person has lots of different aspects to their personality. Removing a person's soul will have different affects on different people. If you yanked out the soul of a person that was pretty bad (evil) already, you might not notice much of a change. 🙂 But in the case of someone like Spike's mom, if you yank out the soul, you've effectively killed the person. What was left was entirely not his mom even though she had the same memories. So even if some of the things she said were true, they still couldn't truly be true. That makes sense in my head but I'm not explaining it very well so I'm going to give up on that and move on now.

Originally posted by Buffy Ann Summers...,
5. Giles was pissing me off big time. and I don't even really know why. I mean, on one level he and Wood were right. But on another level, Buffy's right too.
Click to expand...

The end of the series may prove otherwise but, IMHO, both Buffy and Giles are wrong, not right. I understand where they're both coming from (and I tend to side with Giles although his method in this ep (going along with Wood's stupid plan) was flawed). But both Buffy and Giles are talking about this being a war. That's a very dangerous metaphor to throw around. It's gotten lots of people in trouble before and it's going to get these characters in trouble here. The problem with calling it war is that as soon as you do, all sorts of twisted little moral compromises and concessions become allowed. The kinds of things that would never be allowable during any other time. You know what they say: "All's fair in love and war."

But see--thing is you can't win a war against evil incarnate! It's like declaring war on a volcano or a thunderstorm or an ocean. If you think about it--real physical wars aren't really good for much except claiming land and resources. In general, wars are very stupid things. They're hurtful and painful and even when you "win" you usually lose an aweful lot in the process.

WARNING: This is not exactly a spoiler--it's my vague theory on the season's climax a few episodes from now: There's no way to defeat The First by going to war with it. But Buffy can't see that. Happy (see post above) is correct about the inconsistencies in Buffy's jugement. It's been getting worse and worse this season too. Remember what Joyce said to Dawn. Remember what Joyce said to Buffy. At the critical moment, I think Buffy's going to make a terribly bad decision that will play right into The First's "hands" and Dawn and the others will have to stop Buffy. Possibly by killing her.

But hey, ya know, there's plenty of blame to go around. Everything comes with a price. Did you really think the only price Willow and Xander and Anya and Tara would have to pay for bringing Buffy back to life would be a simple Thamogenesis (sp?)? Of course not. 🙂 If the Beljoxia's Eye (sp?) wasn't lying or being misinterpreted, then this whole thing is, in some way, Willow's and Xander's and Anya's and Tara's fault.

Any questions? 🙂
 
Originally posted by Eternal Darkness
Spike as a nerd is just too funny and a little sweet. It's hard to imagine a man that sweet could turn into such a killer demon.
Click to expand...

yeah, remember cordy's bizzaro world where xander and willow were vamps? they were supposed to be pretty strong too. maybe nerds make the strongest vamps lol.



and now i'll respond to HAPPY. i'll tell you why i side with buffy, in my opinion, spikes always been a special case.

anya - thought to have turned evil and was capable of killing a lot of people. wasnt really any way to restrain her or make her human again, so they tried the killing option.

faith - they tried lots of times to make her see what she was becoming, and she was already killing and wasnt about to stop. i dont even think buffy wanted to kill her, she was just thinking about saving angel. they would have probably been content with jailing her.

angel - he was killing, but there was a chance he could have been saved. not only would he not hurt people if he were saved, he would have saved even more (as he's done). she had to make every effort to save him before deciding to kill him.

willow - she didnt put it off, she tried to take her down, but got beaten up. no shame there.....

i agree with ya on xander, he's like the team's X - factor, pulling off crucial things behind the scenes.

spike - he WAS killing, but he got restrained. not much point in killing him if he's no longer a threat, and since he could only kill demons for fun, he was inadvertantly helping them. now with the soul, buffy thinks he could be as good as angel. he's not yet, but he's not into senseless killing anymore, that counts for something.

i also agree that buffy seems a little holier than thou now, which is kinda annoying. but if no one else is gonna take charge, it may as well be the slayer. i mean after so much battle experience, she had to have picked up at least SOME wisdom. i still think giles was way out of line though, siding with wood over revenge.
 
You guys are correct, Buffy's arguments and her stances are very inconsistent. Which IMO is a great reflection that she is in fact a human being. We are ruled by our emotions and we'll always step up to the plate faster for those we care about than for complete strangers. That's human nature.

With the whole Dawn thing, Buffy admitted she was willing(in the right circumstance) to sacrifice her sister to save the rest of the world. Do you think if Dawn were in Spike's shoes, that if she'd been under the control of the first and was out killing other teens, that Buffy would kill her if there were other options? No she'd try to cure her, and would realize she wasn't responsible for those people dieing. The First Evil is responsible.

I'm certain if in the end if Spike needs to sacrifice his life to save the world, Buffy will probably try to stop him at first, but in the end she'll let him go.
 
this was a pretty cool episode 🙂 i loved the scene where spike just had his little fit and he was asking if he could get the chains off. buffy's like "no, not until you calm down" and he was like "i...am...calm!" i was laughing because the way he said it made him sound like he was going to rip someone apart....but i liked this episode a lot 🙂 shows a lot from spike and wood's past....
 
i particuarly enjoyed this episode, yeah i agree with you that andrews look on his face was pretty hillarious
 
I love these flashback episodes 🙂 Spike's "I don't give a piss about your Mom" speech was nicely done. Can someone remind me at what point Buffy found out Robin's mother was one of the slayers Spike killed? I was confused at the end; it was implied that she knew all about it when she's talking with Robin, telling him about her Mother etc.
 
Spike told her he once killed an Afro-American Slayer in NY in the ??'s ... and Wood tells her his Adro-American mother was from NY killed by a vamp in the ??'s, and was a Slayer ... shouldn't be to hard to figure out!
 
i think buffy is pretty dumb for not figuring out that it was spike who killed wood's mother in the first place. i mean, spike told her the whole story of when and where he killed those slayers, so she should have known as soon as wood told her about his mother.
 
Originally posted by captain peroxide
i think buffy is pretty dumb for not figuring out that it was spike who killed wood's mother in the first place. i mean, spike told her the whole story of when and where he killed those slayers, so she should have known as soon as wood told her about his mother.
Click to expand...

Not quite sure, but did wood told him when was she killed or where? as far as i know, buffy thought wood was from beverly hills
 
i don't think he said where nikki was killed, but it wasn't really hard to just do the math, like "hmm, wood's mother was killed twenty-something years ago, and spike killed an african-american slayer twenty-something years ago... i wonder if that's a coincidence.."
also, since wood was raised by a watcher, he probably should have known it was the infamous spike who killed his mother, before the first told him.


anyway.. i enjoyed xander and anya's one line each in the episode. =[
for some reason i found the part where wood said something like "he's not triggered anymore because the military gave him a soul" pretty funny.
 
can I just say likin the direction the series is going...specially spike.

but one thing that's naggin me is why the scriptwriters are making buffy so hard. In the beginning buffy was different from the other slayers cause she had friends and basically - a life. She wasn't alone. But all of a sudden she's become so hard inside, she's lost all the compassion and humanity that made her stand out from the rest of the slayers. I guess it was only a matter of time but I'm not liking the new not so improved buffy.

There's always been this point - that the reason buffy has lived so long, unlike other slayers is because hse has something to live fore - her friends and family. All of a sudden she is willing to sacrifice Dawn? What's that all about?

I just hope she finds the old buffy again before the end of the show cause i wanna remember the gang like it was - working together!!!!
 
If Buffy doesn't find a way back to being more caring and compassionate, then the prophecy made by the apparition of Joyce may turn out to be true...
 
I finally got to see this episode tonight...I went away and my VCR decided to ignore my commands to tape Buffy. Gotta love the internet...saved my ass...

I loved this episode. Yeah there were some things about a couple of characters I didn't like, but I think it all went together really well. Buffy is being a hard ass because she has to be. If you start letting your guard down and letting people walk all over you then that is detrimental to them succeeding in saving the world.

I felt bad for Robin too...completely understandable why he wanted to kill Spike, but I'm glad he didn't get a chance to. Very smart guy otherwise, using the song to fight the Spike that killed his mother...

Giles...poor Giles. I'm suprised he went along with Robin but when things are wacky it's hard to know what the right decisions are. He really shouldn't have lied to Buffy like that though. I think Buffy ends up shutting him out because having someone around who lies to her is NOT going to help anything. She needs to be able to trust everyone...

And honestly Spike is seeming VERY trustworthy lately. I loved his flashback scenes, that's what I was looking forward to most in this episode (man was I pissed when I found out my VCR disobeyed me). And it was very big of him to let Wood off like that. I honestly thought he was going to kill him for a second, but way cool that he didn't...

All in all, great episode. I can't wait for the next one!! But thank god Angel has been new every week to hold me over!

marie
 
wood should've kept his weapons on... - deserves to die and buffy don't see it yet

----------------------------------

Once again language. If you don't have something nice and friendly to add to the mix then quiet down otherwise you'll end up being edited like this (Again) or deleted.

Lindsey McDonald
 
Personally, I enjoyed the episode, especially getting more of the background on William/Spike. It tied in nicely with the scene in "Fool for Love" when Drusilla sires him, and at first he tries to get away, saying, "Mother is expecting me..."

The way his mother turns on him once she's a vampire and her tuberculosis is cured is a strong parallel with the Season 1 episode where Xander's friend Jesse turns on him once he's a vampire and no longer a geek. In both cases, it's the demon, not the (ex-)person talking.

As for Giles... I'm wondering if he fell in so easily with Wood's plan to kill Spike because he thought both Spike and Wood were time bombs (Spike with his trigger, Wood with his obsessive vendetta), and either one of them -- possibly both -- getting killied would be a win-win situation.

Or was it just a variation on the paternal disapproval/undesirable boyfriend theme?
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top Bottom