Official Discussion: 7.17 - Lies My Parents Told Me

is it just me, or does it seem like Nikki the slayer was a real punk. i mean, i know the underlying reason for her dying was her so called "slayer death wish", but spike made a fool out of her even outside of the train. i thought they would make it look like he got lucky, but he kicked her butt!
 
Originally posted by raz3186
is it just me, or does it seem like Nikki the slayer was a real punk. i mean, i know the underlying reason for her dying was her so called "slayer death wish", but spike made a fool out of her even outside of the train.
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IMHO, it's hard to say. She was obviously taken by surprise, as she had her son with her; and Spike seemed to suggest they were just doing some introductory sparring, so she may not have been trying her hardest.

That said, I wasn't overly impressed with her performance either. But maybe we're meant to see it through the eyes of a 4-year-old child: a monster beating up on his mom.
 
Originally posted by Deviant Warlock
It also marked a turning point in the characterization of Spike. He is no longer following Angel's path, but setting out on his own. When he told Wood that "she was a Slayer, I was a vampire. It's how the game is played" it showed that he isn't into the self-flattulation that Angel has put himself through. He lives in the moment, not attempting to redeem himself for the past. I'm not saying that is a better way to go about things than Angel has, I'm just glad that there is a clearer separation of their two motivations and characters.
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I totally agree with ya Deviant Warlock. You worded that really well! And that's what makes Spike such a good fighter - and why Buffy needs him. He does still have a "badass" side to him and facing the past really helped him to realize that there is nothing he can do except to live for now. And how he faced Buffy at the end telling her that if Wood even looked at him funny he'd kill him - he's not going to let Buffy boss him around anymore either. I think he's finally came into his own. I guess we'll see if that's true in future eps.

Great to see Dru again! Loved how she was rubbing her stomach as soon as Spikes mum walked in! haha.

Giles - I think he overstepped his place a little but he had a good point. He is right that as Spike was a liability, Buffy wasn't willing ot get rid of him. But Buffy had a good point as well - she needs Spike. The fact that the First wants to use him (and even had plans for him) shows that Spike is a definite asset to this fight.

Buffy has become a lot harder. But I think that it's understandable. She's been doing this slayer bit for so long that she's gonna be affected by what she sees and does everyday. She's had to make some really hard choices along the way and learn some hard lessons. I found it interesting that now she said she'd be willing to sacrafice Dawn. That's a big change from last season and really proves that she has become more focused on the "mission".

Wow - all the posts and different perspectives have really given me a lot to think about! There are so many good points and I'm really not to sure who I think is right...(buffy, giles,...) maybe no one is...? hmmm..

Falcon
 
just cause you don't agree with my opinions don't mean they wrong

and wood should've killed spike...

(You have been edited for profanity by your friendly neighbourhood Mod type person... Shame on you Soulgasm, have we not been told about this foul language before... ::thumb:: 😡 )

Lindsey McDonald
 
(...trying desperately to stay on topic...)

Given the title of of episode, does anyone think Giles' judgment is being clouded by his "father-feelings" for Buffy?

Or, does Buffy's slammed door at the end of the episode indicate she's coming to look on Giles as an interfering parental figure rather than a Watcher?
 
That's a good point. I felt sure that the "Parents" was referring to more than just Wood's mom and Spike's mom, but I couldn't put my finger on who else it could be. Yeah of course it's Giles obviously.

Giles has, in fact, lied to Buffy on more than one occasion. The time that springs to mind is the season 3 episode Helpless. That was when Giles participated in the Coucil's stupid plan to see if Buffy could take on a vamp without her powers. He drugged her without her knowlege.

Now that was the only really obvious one, but there have been other occassions where Giles withheld information from her, at least for a little while. I don't think it ever ended well. You'd think he'd learn after a while. 🙂

So, is his judgement being clouded? I don't know, I really don't. The thing is, the Giles character has so many aspects. He can be a bafoon one moment, or a highly intelligent planner the next. Also, he has shown great compassion for Buffy, and that he'd be willing to do anything for her. Or other times he can be a cold, emotionless killer. So it's really difficult to decide which of those aspects of his personality was involved here.
 
Originally posted by WyrdDemonHunter
Giles has, in fact, lied to Buffy on more than one occasion. The time that springs to mind is the season 3 episode Helpless. That was when Giles participated in the Coucil's stupid plan to see if Buffy could take on a vamp without her powers. He drugged her without her knowlege.
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And when he later defied the Council and told Buffy what he'd done, he had his worst rejection from her up to that point. And he got fired from the Council. In fact, this was the episode that his "father's love" for Buffy was first brought up explicitly.

So, is his judgement being clouded? I don't know, I really don't. The thing is, the Giles character has so many aspects. He can be a bafoon one moment, or a highly intelligent planner the next. Also, he has shown great compassion for Buffy, and that he'd be willing to do anything for her.
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Like die for her. "Prophecy Girl", "The Dark Age", many more.

I guess I'm wondering if Giles had a motive as personal as Wood's when it came to Spike: get rid of the "undesirable boyfriend" for good. (Let's face it, even as a human, "badass" Spike would be every father's nightmare if he was hanging around Daddy's little girl.)

And yet there could be a deeper, much more complex hidden agenda on Giles' part, somehow relating to the interaction between Spike and Wood that has nothing to do with his emotions, something where perhaps he's even pulling the strings...

I really can't decide, either...
 
Originally posted by Deviant Warlock
I think that this episode, rather than the retrieval of the duster, marks Spike's re-emergence as a bad-ass.
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Agreed 100%!

Originally posted by Deviant Warlock
The scene with Nikki in the park reasserted Spike as a powerful vampire to be feared, something viewers haven't been exposed to in forever, ever since the chip was put in. And his threat against Wood didn't seem to be an idle one. I think Wood has to be careful from now on.
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Exactly right. He took Nikki on and nearly bit her without too much trouble. Spike is an excellent fighter.

Off-topic question - Why do you think he broke Nikki's neck without sucking her dry? Slayer blood is supposed to be pretty powerful stuff, right?

Originally posted by Deviant Warlock
It also marked a turning point in the characterization of Spike. He is no longer following Angel's path, but setting out on his own. When he told Wood that "she was a Slayer, I was a vampire. It's how the game is played" it showed that he isn't into the self-flattulation that Angel has put himself through. He lives in the moment, not attempting to redeem himself for the past. I'm not saying that is a better way to go about things than Angel has, I'm just glad that there is a clearer separation of their two motivations and characters.
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A point that I have tried to make as well. Spike and Angel have no similarities beyond being a vampire with a soul. Joss told us that they would be different and they are. Angel's curse is to relive the suffering he has visited on others. Spike's non-curse is showing the woman he loves that he is a new man and (he hopes) worthy of her love some day. Because of this, as Deviant Warlock said, Spike lives in the moment. He can distinguish between his three phases and while I believe he has remourse, I don't believe he is 'haunted' by those he has killed as a vampire. It was, afterall, part of the 'game'.
 
About the only thing I can think of as to why he would break her neck instead of drink her is that it was more disrespectful--she was beneath being food.

Or, along a similar line of thinking, she was a kill for fun. Spike had such a high opinion of his own abilities he didn't need to drink from her for any possible powers her blood possessed, and he was just killing her for fun, rather than for food.
 
I always figured he didn't drink her because to move his face to her neck that way might have given her an opportunity to throw him off of her. Then he'd have to fight her more and risk getting staked. Yeah, sure maybe she had a death wish, but if Spike had let up the pressure she still would've killed him.

But you could be right there--perhaps he was, in effect, saying, "You're beneath me." That would fit neatly with the rest of the episode.
 
He'd already drunk the blood of the first Slayer he killed; maybe it was a case of "been there, done that". It would fit in with the cocky attitude.
 
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