Official Discussion for "Sleeper"

You mean that fact that the First Evil was first shown in Amends? Just saying - but I think we all got that.
 
Originally posted by Diminished_9th
Oh, I don't know. Many many things have warned them that this is coming, so I don't find it hard to believe that they know that something Big and Bad is up. Besides, it's us who attributed the term, "Big Bad" to mean "Big, awful demon whom Buffy must kill at the end of the season." I believe that Spike coined the phrase by calling himself the Big Bad. Well, even in season two, he wasn't The Big Bad, so I think they can get away with using it to mean "anything that's coming that we have to fight."
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They can get away? which they, the characters, well yeah (especially since they're fictional) by saying they mean the big en bad thing that's coming to town, but this however is a mistake, ... what am I saying, a blunder of the writers and the directors! have they no shame? ... Ok, overreacting a little, but let's pray, that they'll never do it again.
 
fallen_angel_98 said something about Amends...that's what I was replying to. I'llBeYourAngel, what were you confused about?

Allycat, I don't think you did anything.🙂
Me - complete confusion goin' on over here.
 
Originally posted by I'llBeYourAngel
In Amends? So the thing that was going after Angel right? Or am i not making any sense.
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Nope, you're right on target. Or is it me that is completely wrong about the First Evil that's going on this season? 'Cause I was under the impression that this was the same Evil...
 
Double Post (next time use the edit button!):

That's the impression I was under. Also, it said something like "I'm over the whole good and evil balancing the scales. This time I'm going for the big finish." I thought that referred to why the First Evil brought Angel back in season 3. But that's just me. 😉
 
Nah! ... I think (and secretly hope, but shh about that!), that Joss has the same filosophy and that would be, that good and evil, happy and sad, right and wrong are always in balance, that whenever somebody dies, somebody else needs to cry, if they would it wouldn't be in balance and it would become boring. Remember Riley he was all good for Buffy and it was boring, remember Angel he was all bad for Buffy and it was boring. If heaven would be a place with happiness only I would be bored to death, be it not that I'd already be death! The only thing you can change is how much of each there are, there can be only a little wrongness and thus a little rightness or a lot wrongness, but also a lot of rightness. (See where I'm going?) So life is not really about happy or sad, wrong or right, but about the quantity, about the power! It's also very much something from physics, particles, anti-particles and energy .. it uses a system that's sort of the same as this filosophy! ... And to take in something else from James Bond, I don't know the exact line, but the bad guy from "Tomorrow never dies" said something like, "the only difference between a mad-man and a genius, lies in their succes!" (again something I think and hope is true!) geniuses and mad-man are indeed the same, but it's just that some extravagant people get taken seriously and get world famous (Einstein, Joss) and some don't (Me) 😀! ... these are the people with a lot "power", more than normal people and they either use it to get put in a villa with two expensive sportscars ... or in a psychiatrical ward, with two ungly nurses! ... See it's not about Right, it's not about Wrong, it's about Power!


Sorry, I got so carried away I forgot to say, what the First has to do with all of this! He wants to disrup the balance ... obviously he's not too bright, because that's inpossible ... which brings me to a nice theory on how Buffy should end, if you'd want to rid the world of everything evil (Buffy's case) or everything good (First's case) you'd have to destroy it all. And I don't mean blow it to pieces, but really let everything, EVERYTHING vanish. So that this universe ends, and all the alternative dimensions, and all time (no timetravelling 🙁 )! ... So in order for good or evil to wipe out the other, they'd have to wipe out theirselves. You'd have to turn everything into nothing. .... Complete







Nothingness



















.
 
Well, this is everything getting killed, no actually everything vanishing. But it's not all sad (wrong), but not happy either (right), but it will leave you a very strong twisted feeling in your tummy (Power)!
 
Score! I was right! If you've seen last night's episode then you'll know that it is the First Evil! Wow. I'm amazed that I actually predicted something correctly for a change. 🙂
 
Complete nothingness. Well that makes perfect sense. If everything is always in a balance, then why are the evil guys always trying to destroy the good guys - if it really can't happen? Dumbasses. 😛 But it doesn't seem like the right & wrong are balanced; it seems more like the right side is 'winning'. Well, I mean, not 'winning' anymore 'cause of the First making all this ruckus lol. And balance is boring anyway, what would be the point? So hopefully one side will be the conquerer in the end. :: tu ::

By the way, Allycat, great idea/explanation thing you had there!🙂 - Enjoyed reading it.
 
Okay, but I'm going to try and explain it some more, because neither right nor wrong is winning. As Spike said in Fool for Love said!
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SPIKE: "Well, yeah. I suppose you're telling me you don't? (laughs) How many of my kind reckon you've done?"
BUFFY: "Not enough."
Spike nods.
SPIKE: "And we just keep coming. But you can kill a hundred, a thousand, a thousand thousand and the enemies of Hell besides and all we need is for one of us- just one- sooner or later to have the thing we're all hoping for."
BUFFY: "And that would be what?"
Spike leans in close and whispers in her ear.
SPIKE: "One... good... day."
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The forces of good never win! And neither will the forces of good, they'll always continue fighting. I'll ilustrate this with an even better example, which may even be the best diaglogue on B/A ever! Angel and Holland Manners from 2.15 "Reprise".
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Holland is standing in the open doors of the elevator slowly clapping his hands. Angel walks slowly closer.

Holland: "Congratulations. Great victory."

Angel: "You're..."

Holland: "Holland Manners."

Angel: "...not alive."

Holland: "Oh, no. I'm quite dead. Unfortunately my contract with Wolfram and Hart extends well beyond that."

Gives Angel a big smile, then motions his head.

"Hop on in. You certainly earned it."

Angel slowly steps in, looking at Holland, who laughs.

Holland: "No. Not a ghost here. No, it's just me. Dead me."

(Pulls the collar of his shirt aside to show Angel Darla's bite marks, then reaches for the elevator buttons)

"See? - Home office, wasn't it? I should mention the trip is one way."

Angel stands in the elevator looking out, not saying anything.
We see a homeless person pushing a loaded down shopping cart across the plaza in front of the elevator.

Holland: "Well, if there are no objections, I suggest we get going. It is rather a long ride."

Holland pushes the 'down' button. The doors close and we see the elevator descending down the elevator shaft.
Angel and Holland are standing side by side in the elevator as the lights from the floors it is passing flash by and typically annoying elevator music plays in the background.

Holland: "Well, this is exciting, isn't it? (Smiles) Going straight to the source. - So, what's the big plan, Angel? Destroy the Senior Partners, smash Wolfram and Hart once and for all?"

Angel: "Something like that."

Holland: "Hm-mm, now tell me just what do you think that would accomplish? In the end, I mean."

Angel: "It'll be - the end."

Holland: "Well, the end of you, certainly. But I meant in the larger sense."

Angel: "In the larger sense I really don't give a crap."

Holland: "Now I don't think that's true. - Be honest. - You got the tiniest bit of 'give a crap' left. Otherwise you wouldn't be going on this Kamikaze mission. Now let me see, there was something - in a sacred prophecy, some oblique reference to you. Something you're supposed to prevent. Now what was that?"

Angel: "The apocalypse."

Holland: "Yes, the apocalypse, of course. - Another one of those. Well, it's true. We do have one scheduled. And I imagine if you were to prevent it you would save a great many people. Well, you should do that then. Absolutely. I wasn't thinking. - Of course all those people you save from that apocalypse would then have the next one to look forward to, but, hey, it's always something, isn't it?"

The elevator shaft and cable dissolve as the elevator continues to plummet into a hellish red glow.

Angel: "You're not gonna win."

Holland: "Well - *no*. Of course we aren't. We have no intention of doing anything so prosaic as 'winning'."

Holland laughs and for the first time Angel turns his head to glance in Holland's general direction.

Angel: "Then why?"

Holland: "Hmm? I'm sorry? Why what?"

Angel: "Why fight?"

Holland: "That's really the question you should be asking yourself, isn't it? See, for us, there is no fight. Which is why winning doesn't enter into it. We - go on - no matter what. Our firm has always been here. In one form or another. The Inquisition. The Khmer Rouge. We were there when the very first cave man clubbed his neighbor. See, we're in the hearts and minds of every single living being. And *that* - friend - is what's making things so difficult for you. - See, the world doesn't work in spite of evil, Angel. - It works with us. - It works because of us."

And with that the elevator comes to a screeching halt. The doors open and Angel looks out to see a homeless person pushing a loaded shopping cart across the plaza in front of the Wolfram and Hart Office building in LA.

Holland: "Welcome to the home office."

Angel: "This isn't..."

Holland: "Well, you know it is. - You know *that* better than anyone. Things you've seen. Things you've, well - done. You see, if there wasn't evil in every single one of them out there

(Angel watches as some people in the plaza start yelling at each other)

"why, they wouldn't be people. - They'd all be angels."

The glove drops from Angel's right to land on the floor of the elevator and Angel slowly shuffles out of it. Holland calling after him as the doors close

Holland: "Have a nice day."

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Okay, I don't think I really need to add anything, the First Evil also said it in "Amends" it was in everything, the world works because of it, since without evil their would be no good and in fact their would be nothig at all.
 
I'm really not sure what you're saying but as I undersand it it's a bit like Dogma. If you've seen the film you'll remember that it was about God (obviously) and that proving just one thing he/she's said wrong would negate all existence. The universe would be undone and there would be nothing. (If you haven't seen it I just told you so either way)

Only thing with the balance theory that I don't understand is how can there be dimensions where evil rules ie. Glory's hell dimension. Or wasn't it said at some point that before humans or whatever demons ran the earth. They were they first. If those places exist then how can there be a balance between good and evil? And I kinda think or at least like to think that the earth, even in tv lala land ie. the hellmouth, is actually ....hang on i gotta rephrase that. The people although they all have a little evil inside of them like Holland said, but they are basically all good. Not all use their evil ways for evil doings so good is winning.

See now you got me trying to argue a point for which i have no articulation. That is such a bad thing when you're trying to debate something happens to me all the time......darn it!!!

I don't know if any of that made sense to anyone apart from me I'm gonna try and put it in one simple sentence (here goes nothing) :
Many times good wins over evil and vice versa, so really there isn't a balance just a continuing fight, which is why I think that no side can really win, it's just continuing!

NUFF SAID!
 
Well the Dogma-thing is quite different

Well than look back at Amends or Reprise, because Holland and the First both said Evil was in everything and everyone, if you apply the balance theory, that also Good is in everything and everything. I explained before in another thread, that all of the big bads weren't 100% evil (okay, haven't found it for Adam, but let's skip that part for now), but they had, like our heroes, feelings and emotions, they even had good in them and they showed.

If sometimes evil and sometimes good wins, isn't that a balance? ... I though so! From time to time one of them wins a battle, but the war never ends, untill both good and evil are gone!

I know how hard these discussions can be, specially since I'm not even English!
 
I see good in Adam... he WAS part human after all. He thought that he was doing humanity a favour.

I don't see much good in Glory, assuming you consider her as a separate entity from that guy who was also in her body. Ben was it?
 
Her separate entity from Ben (indeed, his name was Ben), was kind to Dawn even, when she captured her, she never had any evil plans, she just wanted to go home!

Hypothecital Situation: You get thrown into another dimension, which along with it's inhabitants, you really hate (worse than Pylea or Cortox) and you find a chance to get out, would you mind if that would destroy the whole planet you're on, the place you hate so much?

And for the other bad guys, they weren't all 100% bad either, were they?
 
So, just because they want to get home into their demon dimension, you are saying they are not evil?
I don't think this is the way to look at it.
 
Just because they are form another dimension or because they are demons, doesn't mean they are evil either!
 
Originally posted by Allycat

And for the other bad guys, they weren't all 100% bad either, were they?
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The Master wanted to destroy the world, resurrect all vampires and have a river of blood flow in Sunnydale...Angel wanted to open the mouth of Akathla(SP?) and bring havoc upon earth, The Mayor...Well nobody really understod him did they? 😛

Glory was part evil, she didnt give a damn about the worlds she was about to destroy (several thousands, Giles mentioned all dimensions will suffer great pain). And Adam, well he was programed to do what he did, so it wasnt his fault. Then the trio, Jonathan and Andrew were really good it was Warren that deceived them and tricked them into doing bad.
 
the Master seemed to be rather caring towards his pupil Collin the Anointed, which seems kinda "good" for someone purely "evil"!

Angelus seem to have an eye on Dru and he was in love with Darla before.

the Mayor treated Faith as his daughter, he showed fatherly love!
 
But love has nothing to do with good or evil. Well, that's pretty much what I think.
 
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