Official Discussion of "Never Leave Me"

At the end of this episode, I was just in awe. I thought it was fantabulous! And Anya was hilarious! But I can't believe they were bleeding Spike! That's horrible! And now we have to wait until February to find out what happens! That makes me mad.

I just knew when I saw the harbingers who they were! I said to myself, "Hey! They look so familiar! Oh my god! They were the ones who brought back the First Evil to torture Angel in 'Amends'." And hey I was right for a change! Lol I'm very proud of myself that I actually knew what was going on! 😀 Man, I loved this episode so much! But I think I'll go crazy waiting to find out what happens! This is such a typical Joss thing to do... to leave us hanging until February. Sigh. Oh well. 😀
 
this is bothering me SOOOO much...

where is "saw a man about a girl" from? help is appreciated!

--mmmdonuts
 
Ok guys take a look at this...

Establishing shot of Watcher builiding.
Establishing
Blown Up

Look different? They are definatly different buildings, so either the watchers council isn't dead or Jose made a big mistake!
 
Look different? They are definatly different buildings, so either the watchers council isn't dead or Jose made a big mistake!
Click to expand...

Oooh, good observation...I thought for a minute it could be the back of the building, but the coloring is all wrong. Hmmm, now I'm really curious about this. Would Joss be that sloppy?
 
Look different? They are definatly different buildings, so either the watchers council isn't dead or Jose made a big mistake!
Click to expand...

*ponders* Hmm . . . very interesting and confusing. And very odd too. Now my head's all messed up. x.x
 
I think they just used two different buildings. Although, that would be pretty damn smart... And we all know that Joss & the people who work on Buffy tend to be that. Pretty much all the time.
 
no new buffy eps til january? they cannot do that to us! that's...man, talk about bad withdrawls :: image of spike going in withdrawl comes to mind :: yeek 😱

the whole thing with principal wood was strange...i was thinking he may have been posessed at that moment or something. and andrew trying to kill the pig...poor pig...but andrew's efforts was hilarious (him jumping all around)
 
reply to mmmdonuts about Principal Wood

Their is nothing fishy about Principal Wood. He is brainwashed like Spike. The First One uses a tune trigger to control Spike. When Principal Wood was leaving, their was a sound as if someone was playing notes on a piano. He stopped, listened, and then went into the basement. This was probably his trigger tune and if you look at his face it is blank like someone in a trance or under mental control. I believe that Principal Wood is just Joss's slight of hand magic trick. Watch the principal while he surprises us with something else.
 
As far as Principal Woods, my theory is that he is working for good. Possibly for the WC. The way the WC was talking, it sounded like they knew what was up for a while. Wouldn't they send someone to "protect" the seal. Maybe thats why Jonathan's blood didn't work. I dunno, just thinking out loud. I just think that Woods is good, I could be wrong, but I have to go with my gut.

I'm feeling frustrated that it took Buffy and the gang to figure out that Spike was being used by another force. And they are still confused about stuff. For example: when Spike was leaving Xander's apartment he hit Xander and the chip worked. I think that was because Spike had not been triggered. When the first evil shows up as Spike, he sings the song, and then the real Spike can feel nothing. It's like the chip isn't working, but it is! It did with Xander at least. Did any of that make sense??

I'm having a momentary lapse of memory, I'm old forgive me, exactly when did Buffy fight those guys before? I vaguely remember the episode where Angel is back, and they are trying to figure out who sent him, and he is going to kill himself, but it starts snowing. (is that even right?) But I don't remember the details, and specifically those hooded guys. Can someone clear that up for me.

I'm totally loving this season, but the last two eps didn't really let the audience in on too much new info, except that Buffy's feelings for Spike are very significant. I loved what she aid to him in the basement. And I think when it comes down to it, those words will kepp Spike going.
 
1. I highly doubt they killed off Giles... but I'm
also completely unsure of how he survived. Maybe he
pulls a wesley. lol.

2. I thought it was so well done when the building
blew up. I mean, I was in TOTAL shock, but... whoa.
Travers finally gets off his big butt, gives his
speech, and BOOM! But there may still be some other
watchers at their homes... if they weren't ALL killed
by the axe-guys. And there's always Wes. 🙂 Not to
mention the "Watchers in training" who're all at the
"Watcher's Academy" that Wes mentioned in "spin the
Bottle" on Angel. that was hilarious.

3. Actually, I thought that the "real vampire" looked
a lot like Angel looked when he transformed in Pylea.

4. Principal Wood: TOTALLY freaky. I'm guessing he
was under a spell to get rid of Jonathan's body so
that he'd be out of the way for when they bled Spike.
I still don't know why it didn't work with Jon's blood
anyways. SO weird when he just started burying
Jonathan by that... uh... oil rig or something. I
really hope he's just under a spell, because I kinda
like him. It'd be nice to have a principal who's NOT
evil for once. I mean... they've PLAYED that card
already. but then they've also played the vamp with a
soul card before... so I suppose anything's possible.

5. Jonathan: That line about "Maybe I should have
told someone I was anemic" was HILARIOUS. very subtle
though, hard to pick up on. I mean, it wasn't really
Jonathan, it was the First, so that whole "heaven"
idea is jsut to appease Andrew. Make him feel less
guilty and willing to kill again.

6. Andrew: Why was he buying blood in the FIRST
place? And that scene between him and Willow in the
alley was HIALRIOUS! He's like, Yeah.. I'm evil!
And she's all "I'm a She-Witch... well, witch would
be more accurate... etc" Still though, I would NOT
have fed Andrew's blood to Spike. I mean, it turned
out well enough, but who knows what COULD have been in
it. I was getting an Angel's food spiked with
Connor's blood vibe!

Originally posted by SHLBLYN:
I also agree that the First Evil, basically an ugly
vamp, was a bit of a letdown.
Click to expand...

Nono.... The First just RAISED a 'real vampire'...
it isn't the vampire itself I don't think.

And geez... you'd think something scarier would come
out of the hellmouth. I mean... I thought the First
was unleashing this totally crazy evil thing that
would destroy the world and such. I mean... the show
all this weird techological opening of the hellmouth
(weird to have that kind of technology) and out comes
this little gray thing with sharp teeth. whoop dee
doo. Where does the name "Danzathar" come from?

I couldn't understand why Spike's blood was necessary
anyways... why was his blood potent enough, but
Jonathan's wasn't?

I've never seen Amends... But those guys with the
axes/poles/funky knife things were so creepy with the
eyes sewn shut or something...

Originally posted by Diminished9th:
(The previous portion of the post was inspired by Vincinni's deduction of Iocane Powder.)
Click to expand...
Best. Movie. Ever.
 
Gee, I haven't posted in a looong time. Hi everyone!😀

This episode was very cool! First of all, Andrew. Andrew was always my favorite of the nerds, but he is even cooler this past episode. I definately want to see more of him. He was great!

Willow was hillarious, pretending she was still evil and saying she was a she-witch. ^_^

Did anyone get the feeling that Xander was talking about himself when he was describing to Andrew what Anya was capable of. And it was funny how Andrew was like kinda nonchalant, untill Xander throws in then she ripped out his intestines and rubbed them all over his face😀

Am I the only one getting shades of The Master from that vampire the First raised.

I agree that the vamp wasn't the First. I think the shape shifter was the First since in Amends, it took the form of Jenny.

I too had a feeling at the beginning that it could be The First, but I wasn't really sure, and I turned out to be right.

I think I am hibernating till January 😀
 
Did anyone get the feeling that Xander was talking about himself when he was describing to Andrew what Anya was capable of. And it was funny how Andrew was like kinda nonchalant, untill Xander throws in then she ripped out his intestines and rubbed them all over his face
Click to expand...

Yeah, I also thought that Xander was talking from first-hand experience, which is kind of silly, since Xander dumped Anya, so whatever....

Am I the only one getting shades of The Master from that vampire the First raised.
Click to expand...

I also thought he looked like the Master. I agree with everyone else's assesment that he's not that terrifying for the great big first evil. But what would it take to really impress us anymore? I kind of think that it's not the appearance of the demon, but rather its strength and what it does.
 
The vampire isn't the first evil

I get the feeling he is the First Vampire, you know the human that was bit by a demon ages ago.... and the master wasn't the first vampire, giles said he was the OLDEST vampire on the archives....

I think angel and buffy's bads are connected you know, because of the ultradevil who kicked everyone's ass in rain of fire and this ubervamp, i believe that both are like generals for the first....

I KNEW IT WAS THE FIRST!!! WAHOOOOOO

Also, the two building thing, i think it is to make the explosion, maybe they couldn't blow the first building they used...
 
What was with Princible Wood. Is he evil or was he having a Spike moment when he burried Jonathan.
I don't want him to be bad cause he's so nice and cute!!!!

Another thing: How do we know that all the council guyswere actually still in the building. It is possible that they blew it up themselve. Far fetched I know but bare with me it gets better....Travers and the rest of the council gang are actually on their way to Sunnydale to help fight the big fight and becasue they knew that the First would go after them they blew up their building to eliminate any trace. OK Ok I see several flies in that logic ointment. Like the First knows all the intimate details of the scobbies lives so I'm sure it can locate a whole bunch of stuffy brits in tweed in a split second.
It was just a though oh well I'll just shut up and sit over there now.....
 
I highly doubt the principal is either good or evil. To me, he just looks like a normal guy with a normal job (as far as he knows, at least 😛). As was pointed out before, he was triggered in the same way as Spike by a few notes coming from the basement as he walked past it on his way out of the building. My guess is that the First Evil just needed someone to get rid of Jonathan's body and the principal was the first thing to come along.

I'm not entirely sure why Jonathan's blood didn't work, being anemic is somewhat of a strange excuse. I highly doubt ancient artifacts have a way of detecting the amount of red blood cells in blood, but oh well. If they want a Spike who bleeds at highly unnatural speed, so be it 😉

The vampire that was raised of course isn't the First Evil itself, it's simply the First Vampire, first raised in ancient times by the First Evil, probably. Possibly defeated by the First Slayer. And that seal isn't the Hellmouth itself, which probably is a rather large area, centered under Sunnydale High. The Master in Season 1 was stuck in the Hellmouth if memory serves correctly, and was generally walking around in a bunch of caves, which would indicate the Hellmouth is somewhat bigger than a small tunnel into the abyss.

As for the Watcher's council - they building that it is supposedly located in did indeed look very different from the building that exploded, but seeing as it would make very little sense to blow up an unknown building at that point in the episode, I think we may conclude that the First Evil has indeed effectively eliminated the threat of the Council. Although a building exploding without any explanation is a very tacky and un-"Hi, I'm an ancient mystical and legendary evil" way to go about it 🙁

The revelations are indeed arising very early in the season - a bit of a shame. Not knowing what it was that was coming was quite a bit scarier, especially as you knew that something was coming. The whole "From beneath you, it devours" thing was way more spine-tingling when the thing that was coming was unknown. Personally, I expected it to be the Hellmouth itself - might still happen.

An earlier mention in this thread of a crossover Buffy/Angel season finale where the storylines of both shows work towards a shared final battle would absolutely rock, although I'm reasonably sure it won't happen. This Buffy season will probably shift to us learning how the First Evil and the First Slayer came to be, wouldn't surprise me if they were born from the same 'power'. Which makes me think of the fact that the First Evil has a similar kind of relationship to the First Vampire as a Watcher has to a Slayer - maybe there's more to the Watchers than meets the eye after all 😉
 
You know, uh, stupid thinking here, but - if the First Evil can just hook up a couple of explosives & blow up the entire building...then why doesn't (or didn't) the First just blow up the library Willow was in and/or blow up Buffy's house. 1, 2, 3, - easy as that. I know, I know, tv show...damn the non-realityness of it all.
 
I very much doubt any crossover can take place,

As i recall Buffy and Angel are now on different networks... as soon as that happened i'm pretty sure they said no more crossovers.
 
what an ep! Just saw it last night...

Principal Wood seems to be under the same sleeper influence as Spike, i don't think he is evil.

Maybe we will find out at a later stage that the harbingers blew up the wrong building and the WC is still alive and kicking.

Ritual awakening of a once dusted vampire! We had that on Angel before, so why are they repeating themselves? And what is this smallish, ugly vamp supposed to do?

We learned in "Amends" that the First cannot be fought and also cannot go corporial, hence cannot do harm directly. It almost pushed Angel over the edge, but it doesn't seem to be able to push current Sunnydale citizens? has the First lost its edge?

In any way, it will be interesting to find out, how the scoobies are going to fight a nemesis that cannot be fought.
 
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