OK, why'd they fight at all?

[mrcpu]

Angel had some access to some serious mojo, why not kill the black thorne people, and then everybody duck out to different dimensions (remember, Angel said that W&H as the most powerful on that specific dimension), and live to fight another day?

Even pack up and head off with Loren wherever he went. Seems like W&H wouldn't let Lorne off any more than anybody else...

Or with all the resources at W&H, get the zapper gun back, and give illyria back some of her power, maybe she'd open a serious can of whupass on the incoming horde... Especially after she started developing the hots for Gunn/Wes.

 

[Nix]

seriously cool thought - perhaps after we saw the credits that is what happened...

 

[Wicked]

Well the couldnt give Illyria any powers back because the reason they took them away in the first place was she was about to die. And take them all with her. If they gave her back the powers, the same thing would happen.

If they left with Lorne, the world would be in danger. They werent fighting at the end to save them selves. After all, Gunn was already dying. They were fighting to save everyone else. If they'd left, the demons and everything from wherever they came from would attack everyone else.

The point of taking on the senior partners was to destroy as much evil as they could. So making them angry then running away, not really a good idea.

As for the letting Lorne away with it thing, not really Angels choice. They all chose to fight. Angel couldnt make them. Lorne chose not to. It was his decision. Angel couldnt force him.

 

[kimbonka]

The reason they faught in the first place is because THATS WHAT THEY DO.. They fight, generally they fight the GOOD fight. Running away would be the easy way out.

 

[mrcpu]

Nothing in "fight the good fight" means fight stupidly. Gunn was hurt, needed attention, Spike looked like he'd gotten knocked around a bit.

He who runs away, lives to fight another day. No reason they couldn't duck out, after having already accomplished a great task, that of gettign rid of the Black Thorn, and basically destroying most if not all of W&H's current plans.

heal up, recruit some new soldiers, come on back and lay down some smack... Heck, given the time differentials in some dimensions, they'd have years to prepare, and this dimension might only see a few days...

More than once, Angel has told people to run away, knowing they would die. Angel didn't expect to live himself, he even said so to spike...

 

[MentPatient]

That was the final battle they've chosen.
They wiped out the Black Thorn and, well, after being surrounded by demons, it would be quite difficult to escape.

The Senior Partners wouldn't care THAT much about Lorne, he's not a fighter. He won't be making too much trouble for them if he went unnoticed for a while, unlike Angel, Wesley, Spike, etc.

 

[Wicked]

Nothing in "fight the good fight" means fight stupidly. Gunn was hurt, needed attention, Spike looked like he'd gotten knocked around a bit.

He who runs away, lives to fight another day. No reason they couldn't duck out, after having already accomplished a great task, that of gettign rid of the Black Thorn, and basically destroying most if not all of W&H's current plans.

heal up, recruit some new soldiers, come on back and lay down some smack... Heck, given the time differentials in some dimensions, they'd have years to prepare, and this dimension might only see a few days...

More than once, Angel has told people to run away, knowing they would die. Angel didn't expect to live himself, he even said so to spike...

Did you not read my post? Everything in it explains why they did what they did.
Ducking out to a different dimension wouldnt help Gunn. He was still gonna die. Why not go out fighting?

And run away to fight another day? There wouldnt be another day if they ran. And not just for them, but for everyone. They brought the fight to them, they had to end it. One way or another.
They werent exactly gonna pick the mother of all fights then run away to let all the innocent people in the LA deal with it.

They knew what would happen when the took on the Black Thorn. That was the fight they were talking about not comng back from. Not the Black Thorn.

 

[kimbonka]

They went out fighting because there was no use in running, all those demons, dragons, monsters, giants, and warriors were going to kick their ass and everyone else's. I like to think there is some hope for them winning, and who knows, thats why Joss left it where it's at, mostly for fan fic. But I believe they went out fighting because ever since season one when Doyle convinced Angel to Fight the Good Fight, that is what he tried to do.

Plus, when they were in that room talking when no one could see them talking to eachother (bc they thought they were fighting) Angel said, raise your hand if you'll die for the cause. All of them said Im in except for Lorne (which i completely understand) Wes died for the cause, Gunn practically died for the cause, and the rest were not going to go down without a fight! It was victorious, whether they lost or won. It was a spectacular ending to and amazing show.

 

[Schillaci]

I had some issues with this awhile back. There were three things I couldn't quite wrap my head around, and at the time I think the end to Angel left a bad taste in my mouth. I think because I like to simplify things and deal with them on a basic practical level, I couldn't really see the poetry of Angel's sacrifice.

1: By taking on the Senior partners and bringing down unholy hell on their asses, basically suicide, who was there to "fight the good fight"?

2: Doyle, Cordelia, and others died so Angel could keep fighting, was he not dishonouring their memories by taking this course of action?

3: On the dvd, Joss said the message of Not fade away was "you never stop fighting." Death = Stop fighting...(usually..lol)

I resolved these issues by getting fat, growing old, and singing the blues.. Wait that wasn't me.

Angel is not the only champion in the world, just because he isn't there does not mean the good fight would not be fought, someone else will take his place. One door closes, another opens.

Doyle, Cordelia and others died to get Angel to this point. What else can a true hero do but take on the very pinnacle of evil. By taking on the most heinous diabolical evil he IS honouring their deaths. He is doing what is right, he is doing what nobody else was in a position to do.

As for "you never stop fighting", I assume just because the weight of forces they are up against, that Angel and his crew died in that alley. Of course, death to people like Spike and Angel does not always mean the end.

 

[Wicked]

Well, to be fair, if Angel did die in that Alley, there are hundereds of new Slayers now to take his place 🙂.

And Kimbonka, Lorne did raise his hand. You saw if briefly. You should watch it again.

And, not to be nasty, I dont mean it like its gonna sound, but if you're gonna agree with me with the word "exactly" maybe you should read what I say properly.

I didnt say they fought because there was no use running. I said they fought because that was the whole point of going up against them. To fight them.

Your post suggests they picked a fight to fight the Black Thorn, then when the senior partners came after them, there was no point running away, cos they couldnt.

I meant they killed the Black Thorn to pick a fight with the Senior Partners, so they did.

 

[Angel's vision]

I've read the last two posts now i'll give my two cents worth:
1) the final vision from the ptb, they showed Angel where the real power was in terms of W&H to get them where it hurts.
2) He wasn't given the blue print as to how to destroy the senior partners themselves (i was dissapointed they didn't get to go after them aswell)
Angel's motive was revenge as when Fred died he had just had enough so he planned things the way he did.
he didn't expect to live and neither the others when they took out the thorn so they made the most of what they got while they could.Angel explains that he wanted to make Fred's death matter not become some random event in a horrible world.
3)I can't see any other way he could find out what they looked like so he could kill them.

 

[mrcpu]

Let's see, sabassian had what, 30,000 demons at his command? Even if they kill one a second that's, what, 6 hours of solid fighting w/o a break? Short of divine intervention, I see no way out.

Hence the good citizens of LA would still have to deal with the aftermath. But that shouldn't be a surprise, they had to deal with the sun being out, and all those other issues, wha'ts another dmon uprising.

And Angel specifically said that W&H where the most powerful people in *this* dimension. So go to a different dimension where they *aren't*, and regroup.

I don't have a problem with fighting against seemingly impossible odds. But I hate to see Angel go down w/o exploring all the options...

Heck, go to a dimension where time moves differently, say kortoth, or whatever it was, get rested up, and then jump back in to the situation only a few seconds after you left.

Just a matter of working the system.

 

[Another Apocalypse?]

I believe the reason they fought was partly because if they ran away, the demons would gather strength and ravage LA, yet if they fought them here they may have been able to take some of them out. Also, if they hadn't fought, the finale wouldn't have been as kickass as it was!

 

[Wicked]

kimbonka disagrees: "no need to be nasty" but what is your problem???

I dont have a problem. I said I didnt mean it how it sounded. And then I explained what I meant. Again. And still, youre taking what I say wrong. Again.

 

[nerd4hire]

Myself, I don't have a problem with any of this, because I'm not convinced Angel doesn't have a way out of that alley.

Towards the end of Season 5 (you can even go back to the end of Season 4), Angel is all about the sneaky plans only he knows the true purpose of. He convinces AI he's gone bad, and lost the mission, but really he's got a private plan based on secret information only he has.

So until Whedon tells me Angel doesn't have a way out of that alley, I'm going to think maybe he does, and we just haven't seen it yet. For all I know, maybe it does involve leaping dimensions.

 

[white avenger]

The main reason "Not Fade Away" ended as it did was a rather heavy handed attempt by the writers to come up with a good cliff hanger to end the season (remenber the end of season five of BUFFY? I believe the same motives apply to season five ANGEL. If they could be renewed on another network, something could be contrived to save Angel and Co. If not... Well, we're still talking about it, right?

 

[Edmund Blackadder]

If they could be renewed on another network, something could be contrived to save Angel and Co. If not... Well, we're still talking about it, right?

I personally don't believe that was ever on the cards and honestly, i've also come to believe Whedon was fine with that as it allowed him to begin his 'Movie' career.
I think at the end of season 4, Whedon was pulled in by the execs and told he could have one more season to secure that lucrative 100 episodes for syndication then that would end.

 

[Voran]

Kinda a late entry in this thread, but my thoughts:

Angel knew the horde was focused on one thing, Angel and company. Meeting them head on meant that the ire would remain focused on Angel and Company. If Angel and crew had fled, in Angel's mind I'd see him going "Now that horde will take out its aggression on every mortal and innocent along its path until they find us."

So 1)they're tired, 2)Angel in the very least would be unwilling to risk innocents by trying to flee the area and let the horde rumble after them.