One Tree Hill (spoilers)

Go. Start watching again. One Tree Hill is one really amazing show. Maybe earlier seasons were a little bit better that this later seasons, but OTH can still amaze and surprise me. Plus,
Dan was back in one newer episode in season 8
.

Maybe Brooke and Lucas will never be together, but Brooke and Julian are also amazing, and this is coming from someone who could never imagine Brooke with anyone else than Lucas. And Brooke is really one of the best characters in OTH. Her 'evolution' scale was the best in the show!

I'm actually thinking about it, seriously. Just let me finish up my Alias re-watch (I'm in S4 and still have one more season to go) and then I'll entertain the idea. *g* Ya know, for Brooke and Dan, of course. lol. 😉

I don't know that I'd say that OTH is an amazing show, but I will say that in times past it was a really good show, at one point. And I may or may not end up changing my mind after I catch up, but I'll get there on some level. I think, I'm always going to probably irrationally hold a great deal of frustration and anger towards Mark for what he did to the BL relationship and how much he hurt it and the very foundation that established it. And I freely admit that's coming from a very fan biased place, just ask Flannen and she'll tell you that I can be objective when it comes this show as far as character's, ships, and storyline's go. We've been talking about that a great deal. 🙂

And really,
Dan came back for an episode in S8
?! How come no one told me this!!! aljdfaljdfadljfda! Okay, that settles it, I'm really going to have to catch up just for that because I really do love the character to death, faults and all NO MATTER what he did or what he MAY EVER do. I just...I love him. 🙂

And I've actually been thinking about this, but I'm starting to entertain the idea that
he had to kill Keith in order to see just how far low he had sunk, before he could ever think about redeeming himself in any sort of way. Now, I don't know if I'm a full blown subscriber to this ideology, but it's sure been strutting around in the peripheral shadows of my mind with its put-on cynical snarky undertones. Maybe it's worthy of a discussion, what say Flannie-pants?!
You up for it?!

See, I've heard conflicting things about Brooke and Julian. I've seen a handful of eps here and there along the way during hiatuses when there was absolutely nothing else to watch and I just tuned in to see what the hell was up, but what I saw here and there made me feel like it was Brooke/Lucas 2.0 all over again and it sort of had this weird way of cheapening it for me a bit. Now, I can't fully weigh in on anything, because I haven't been caught up for a loooong time now. But, it was just a mere impression that I had gotten and coupled with some of the mixed bag emotions regarding these two coming from various friends and other fans, I wasn't so sure about it all.

But, I'll see. We'll see, Flannen and I have actually been discussing this, as I said. lol. So, I'll try and give them a chance and see what's up when I get there.
 
Flannen
Flannen
I will PM back soon, this week has been beyond mad!
I'm actually thinking about it, seriously. Just let me finish up my Alias re-watch (I'm in S4 and still have one more season to go) and then I'll entertain the idea. *g* Ya know, for Brooke and Dan, of course. lol. 😉

I don't know that I'd say that OTH is an amazing show, but I will say that in times past it was a really good show, at one point. And I may or may not end up changing my mind after I catch up, but I'll get there on some level. I think, I'm always going to probably irrationally hold a great deal of frustration and anger towards Mark for what he did to the BL relationship and how much he hurt it and the very foundation that established it. And I freely admit that's coming from a very fan biased place, just ask Flannen and she'll tell you that I can be objective when it comes this show as far as character's, ships, and storyline's go. We've been talking about that a great deal. 🙂

And really,
Dan came back for an episode in S8
?! How come no one told me this!!! aljdfaljdfadljfda! Okay, that settles it, I'm really going to have to catch up just for that because I really do love the character to death, faults and all NO MATTER what he did or what he MAY EVER do. I just...I love him. 🙂

And I've actually been thinking about this, but I'm starting to entertain the idea that
he had to kill Keith in order to see just how far low he had sunk, before he could ever think about redeeming himself in any sort of way. Now, I don't know if I'm a full blown subscriber to this ideology, but it's sure been strutting around in the peripheral shadows of my mind with its put-on cynical snarky undertones. Maybe it's worthy of a discussion, what say Flannie-pants?!
You up for it?!

See, I've heard conflicting things about Brooke and Julian. I've seen a handful of eps here and there along the way during hiatuses when there was absolutely nothing else to watch and I just tuned in to see what the hell was up, but what I saw here and there made me feel like it was Brooke/Lucas 2.0 all over again and it sort of had this weird way of cheapening it for me a bit. Now, I can't fully weigh in on anything, because I haven't been caught up for a loooong time now. But, it was just a mere impression that I had gotten and coupled with some of the mixed bag emotions regarding these two coming from various friends and other fans, I wasn't so sure about it all.

But, I'll see. We'll see, Flannen and I have actually been discussing this, as I said. lol. So, I'll try and give them a chance and see what's up when I get there.

For me, OTH is an amazing show. With the fact it's so unreal from time to time, it's one of the most amazing shows I've ever seen.. because I love watching shows where everything is good and perfect and have happy ending. I can see misery and hurt in real life..

Yes, he's back. You'll be surprised when you see him. His apparance includes one of the newer characters..

Your topic about Keith. Yes, I agree, killing Keith was the triger for Dan. For him to realize some things. But I don't think it had to be like that. Because doing that, he lost a lot more.. he lost his brother, he lost his family.. I liked Keith, and the fact he never met his duaghter is hurtful, and that his brother killed him with no good reason was disrespectful. I don't like Dan that much to over see Keith's death as something that was needed to done for Dan to grow.
 
Your topic about Keith. Yes, I agree, killing Keith was the triger for Dan. For him to realize some things. But I don't think it had to be like that. Because doing that, he lost a lot more.. he lost his brother, he lost his family.. I liked Keith, and the fact he never met his duaghter is hurtful, and that his brother killed him with no good reason was disrespectful. I don't like Dan that much to over see Keith's death as something that was needed to done for Dan to grow.

Technically he did not do it for no reason he thought it was revenge. Deb went and tried to burn him down. He thought Keith did it because he admitted to it mistake on Keith's part but I don't blame Dan for his actions. He was just doing what Deb did but got the job done. It is sad that Keith stuck up for Deb and was killed for something he did not do. I stick up for Dan in that department because if someone drugs you and lights you on fire you can't honestly say you wouldn't be ticked off especially in OTH. So I think it is Deb's fault in a way Keith is dead and that is why in the later seasons when Dan said that she got upset because it is true. Dan pulled the trigger but she loaded the gun long before.
 
Technically he did not do it for no reason he thought it was revenge. Deb went and tried to burn him down. He thought Keith did it because he admitted to it mistake on Keith's part but I don't blame Dan for his actions. He was just doing what Deb did but got the job done. It is sad that Keith stuck up for Deb and was killed for something he did not do. I stick up for Dan in that department because if someone drugs you and lights you on fire you can't honestly say you wouldn't be ticked off especially in OTH. So I think it is Deb's fault in a way Keith is dead and that is why in the later seasons when Dan said that she got upset because it is true. Dan pulled the trigger but she loaded the gun long before.
I know very well what happened. But still, that is not reason good enough. Dan had him assumptions, but killing his own brother? Little hursh.
Both Dan and Deb are to blame. They pulled people in their own fight, and Deb surely went on the wrong path.
I will never find and excuse good enough for what Dan did, and he got everything he deserved. He was a monster long before he killed his brother. But he wasn't a murderer.
 
I know very well what happened. But still, that is not reason good enough. Dan had him assumptions, but killing his own brother? Little hursh.

I agree. It was harsh and I wish it didn't happen. Were any of you surprised he pulled the trigger? I remember when I watched it the first time as it aired I was shocked. I didn't think he was going to actually pull the trigger.

I was watching it with my roomies (there were 6 of us at that time) and when Dan shot Keith we about 4 of them screamed out loud. We could also here the girls next door yelling about what had just happened.
 
I agree. It was harsh and I wish it didn't happen. Were any of you surprised he pulled the trigger? I remember when I watched it the first time as it aired I was shocked. I didn't think he was going to actually pull the trigger.

I was watching it with my roomies (there were 6 of us at that time) and when Dan shot Keith we about 4 of them screamed out loud. We could also here the girls next door yelling about what had just happened.

I was shocked. Seriously shocked. I really didn't knew he's capable for something like that. I always saw him as a bad guy, like someone who's going to make things complicated, but I never ever thought he's going to be labeled as a murderer.
 
For me, OTH is an amazing show. With the fact it's so unreal from time to time, it's one of the most amazing shows I've ever seen.. because I love watching shows where everything is good and perfect and have happy ending. I can see misery and hurt in real life..

Yes, he's back. You'll be surprised when you see him. His apparance includes one of the newer characters..

Your topic about Keith. Yes, I agree, killing Keith was the triger for Dan. For him to realize some things. But I don't think it had to be like that. Because doing that, he lost a lot more.. he lost his brother, he lost his family.. I liked Keith, and the fact he never met his duaghter is hurtful, and that his brother killed him with no good reason was disrespectful. I don't like Dan that much to over see Keith's death as something that was needed to done for Dan to grow.

And I'm glad FOR YOU that OTH is an amazing show IN YOUR OPINION. In my opinion, it was better in the earlier seasons and it was a good show that had the potential be an amazing show. So, yeah...this we're going to have to amicably agree to disagree on.

I don't ever want my fiction to be everything is good and perfect and has to have happy endings. Life is not always like that and I do not want my fiction to be like that. My opinion, of course. I want to watch something that's realistic, something that I can relate to. And I can relate to happy just as much as I can relate to misery, I need a balance of everything. I need the bad with the good and the good with the bad and the tragic with the occasional miracle to occur.

I find it odd that you would say that and you watched BtVS.

Good, I can't wait to see what you're speaking of then. 🙂

And let me just preface what I'm about to say with this, and I DIDN'T say that I didn't like Keith, nor did I ever imply or say that him never getting to know his daughter wasn't hurtful or that Dan killing wasn't disrespectful. And while we're on the subject, I never said that it was okay or that Dan should be absolved for killing Keith either. I'm very well aware of what Dan lost (as I'm sure that he is a great deal as well) by killing his brother. And here's the thing, I can also understand what brought him to that moment, everything that had happened in his life that had allowed that moment to get there. It doesn't excuse it or make it okay, but I do feel like that should be taken into consideration.

I love Dan Scott. He will always be one of my top 3 favorite character's in the history of that show and one of the best fictional character's written, in so far as being multi-layered, complicated, and multi-faceted goes. Dan is a huge gaping gray area and I am very pleased that we were allowed a small glimpse of him. It is no secret that I have legions of love for him. I don't always love his actions, but I do love the he can still be a good man in some respects while still being the "monster" that some people seem to believe he is.

If MS wanted me to hate this character when he killed Keith, I absolutely refused to do that because it only made me sympathize with him more. Because I understand everything that led him to that moment (no, before you even imply I do not agree with it) but I do understand and I am not going to just gloss over that understanding either or let it go out the window because he killed Keith. I do believe that in his killing Keith, that the writer's were trying to take Dan down a different path and tell another chapter in his story.

Here he's gone and done the un-thinkable, the unconscionable that he will mostly likely NEVER be forgiven for and yet, he can be redeemed. He can show that he's so very sorry, he can realized just EXACTLY what he's lost and learn that there's NOTHING that he can gain from this. For me, if Whitey can see that there's redemption there inside Dan and he can work his way to forgiving him, then I can too. If you can't, that's fine. If you want to call him a monster and make it seem like that's all he is, fine. It doesn't bother me, I'm finished arguing with people over this.

But, here's another thing I've been dying to say (and I really should have stayed out of this thread as my blood is literally boiling right now) I get angry when people act like Dan's a monster and Keith is a saint - because he's the victim, he's the one who ended up dead. I'm not trying to say that it's okay he ended up dead or that he's not a victim of that one random act of violence, because to do that would mean being disrespectful of his death and I liked Keith and I'm not doing that at all. But, what I am saying, is that people want to list all of the horrible wrong things that Dan has done over the seasons and and then use his killing Keith to really condemn him, but nobody wants to talk about the things that Keith did and Keith did wrong too.

I am so glad that pointed out, that it's partially Deb's fault for Keith being killed as well. Because I've always maintained that if Dan had known that it was her that tried to kill him and not Keith, then he would have never killed Keith. And like she said, Deb is the one who tried to murder Dan (never mind the hell he put through, that still didn't give her the right nor Keith to help her get away with it either for that matter - to take it into her own hands and deal with it) and Keith cover it up for her. Not to mention in earlier seasons he slept with Deb while she was still married to Dan and let's not forget that he did buy a gun and actually "think" about killing Dan himself for a moment. No, he didn't actually do it and he probably wouldn't have, but that doesn't mean buying a gun and thinking about it isn't bad either.

My point is not to tear down Keith and make it look like he deserved to die and that Dan is vindicated in making that happen, because that's not the case at all. I'm just trying to show that Keith was very much wrong in some of the things that he did, no matter how much people want to act like Dan is a monster and he can never be redeemed. There were things there that put him on that path and I do believe and still maintain that Keith's death partially had to happen in order for Dan to realize this. I'm not changing my opinion or trying to change yours or saying you're wrong. I'm just offering up my own two cents.

I know very well what happened. But still, that is not reason good enough. Dan had him assumptions, but killing his own brother? Little hursh. Both Dan and Deb are to blame. They pulled people in their own fight, and Deb surely went on the wrong path. I will never find and excuse good enough for what Dan did, and he got everything he deserved. He was a monster long before he killed his brother. But he wasn't a murderer.

Again, that's your opinion and of course you're entitled to it, but mine is different as may be a few other's. You seem to think that those of us who don't blame Dan for certain things, are very much okay with him killing Keith and that's not the case. I believe that I can understand what led Dan to do that and still not like that he did it, as well. It's not an excuse to point out the reasons for why he did it or what led him to that moment. And as far as your Dan was a monster long before he killed his brother, well I find that a tad bit offensive. And I'll go you one further, Keith wasn't a saint before he was killed either. If we want to play that game.

I didn't want to argue or debate or let other people's opinions get the better of me, but I feel like they have now and I feel like I've worn my welcome out in this thread, as I've tried to be about as objective as I can be. But, I can see that I'm not welcome here, because anything I have to say about Dan or my understanding of what he did even if I didn't like it, is going to be looked at as my making excuses when all I'm doing is sharing an opinion.

So yeah, I need to be done now.
 
M
Marisa
The last part is my opinion exactly. No one was a saint and it seems like Dan gets a bad rap what I said in my post.
brinkster130
brinkster130
I like reading about your take on Dan. As much as I dislike what happened with him, its very interesting to look at it from Dan's POV. Don't leave this thread ;)
I just feel like it is easy for everyone to blame Dan because he was the "villain". I understand that but Keith and Deb knew what they were doing. Did I think Dan was capable of what he did no, but then again burning someone is just as bad and to me to put all the blame on Dan is not fair. There were many things that went into this and why it happened. Keith should not have been killed nobody should have but all this started with Deb when she drugged Dan and set him of fire to BURN and DIE. Sorry that is a lot worse than a gun shot Dan was in the moment Deb planned this.

I do think it was harsh that Keith died but he should have not gotten involved I know he was a good man that is why he did but I don't know. Everyone always blames Dan. I do to but I also put blame where it should be as well on Deb.

It is no secret I love Dan but that does not cloud my judgement I know he can be harsh and it was wrong for him to kill his brother but the rest of the characters act all high and mighty when they are far from that. That right there Lucas and Nathan acting like that was one thing that always irritates me on my re-watches.
 
S
soulunsung
And this I more than 100% agree with. :)
brinkster130
brinkster130
I completely agree about Deb. She is faaaar from innocent.
The last part is my opinion exactly. No one was a saint and it seems like Dan gets a bad rap what I said in my post.

I just feel like it is easy for everyone to blame Dan because he was the "villain". I understand that but Keith and Deb knew what they were doing. Did I think Dan was capable of what he did no, but then again burning someone is just as bad and to me to put all the blame on Dan is not fair. There were many things that went into this and why it happened. Keith should not have been killed nobody should have but all this started with Deb when she drugged Dan and set him of fire to BURN and DIE. Sorry that is a lot worse than a gun shot Dan was in the moment Deb planned this.

I do think it was harsh that Keith died but he should have not gotten involved I know he was a good man that is why he did but I don't know. Everyone always blames Dan. I do to but I also put blame where it should be as well on Deb.

It is no secret I love Dan but that does not cloud my judgement I know he can be harsh and it was wrong for him to kill his brother but the rest of the characters act all high and mighty when they are far from that. That right there Lucas and Nathan acting like that was one thing that always irritates me on my re-watches.

Exactly. And I said in my post above, I feel like I've worn my welcome out here, but I can't just "not" argue in Dan's defense a bit.

This is what I was trying to point out, that it's so easy for people in the OTH fandom to dismiss the fact that what Deb tried to do to Dan is just as bad as what he actually did succeed in doing to Keith. And then to have Keith help her cover it up, as if it's perfectly okay that she's done this no matter what Dan did to her or how badly he treated her, it was still wrong. Yet, it's rationalized that it was a result of all the hell he'd put her through, so she was well within her rights. And it's also over-looked and completely swept underneath the rug and excuses are made on both hers and Keith's behalf.

It's a double standard and it's not fair.

So, let me get this straight in my head. Keith's a good man, because he helped to free Deb of Dan, by covering up her attempted murder of HIS brother and HER husband, but Dan is a monster because he believed that Keith is the one who had attempted to kill him and thereby did the same thing that (Deb had done) but actually succeeded?! Now really, where's the logic in that?

In this case, ALL parties are wrong for their own individual actions and should be held accountable. I mean, isn't only fair that Deb be held accountable for her actions, since Dan already paid his time for his? Also, let me point out that even if it did take him all season long to do it, he still admitted what he'd done to Keith and did the right thing by turning himself in to the proper authorities and doing his time.

People can argue all the day that the had his reasons and his own personal selfish motivations for doing this (and he might just have - that can't very well be denied), but at the end of the day maybe he did it for all of the RIGHT REASONS as well.

I don't like people who sit in high judgement of other's and make assumptions about one, when other's are just as bad. I'm not talking specifically to anyone in this thread, I'm talking about a lot of the character's on OTH. Lucas, Deb, Keith, Karen, Nathan, etc. In the end, they are all guilty of doing this.

I am sorry that Keith died. I'm even more sorry that it had to be at Dan's hands, but I will not just sit idlely while Keith is purported as a saint and Dan is denigrated to a monster status. Yes, he's a murder. Fine, he was a lousy dad (but, I'd wager that he had his good moments there, as well). Okay, he was bastard and probably always will be. And yes, he was a horrible husband and an even worse boyfriend. That doesn't mean that there wasn't some good in him and that doesn't translate into monster to me. And it also doesn't mean that there can't be something still "salvageable" some "good quality" about him that's worth saving or forgiving or ever letting him be redeemed.
 
M
Marisa
100% agreed I feel like I have to defend Dan a lot of the times because he is the only one who is judged glad you pointed that out.
Don't worry about all the spoiler tags, guys. Use them for stuff about S8 but it does warn about spoilers in the title so all the S3, killing Keith, Dan stuff doesn't need to be hidden...plus, it's more effort for me to keep up 😛

One thing I caught the other day and have been meaning to mention. While I love Brooke's journey, I don't find hers to be the biggest change. I think that goes to Nathan. (Or I'd possibly accept they're pretty equal because they overcame very similar things.) Brooke changed, a heck of a lot, and for the better. No disagreement there. But even in those first few episodes you see that Brooke, especially when she's with Peyton, is already that person. She does bitchy things but she isn't a character that I find hard to like and I think her change was buried in her decision to fully accept that person. Nathan, on the other hand, was just an outright douche for those first few episodes. He wasn't even nice to his friends lol. He was mean, selfish and arrogant. And looking back at him, I actually feel proud to see him now. His change was phenomenal, really and truly.

And I've actually been thinking about this, but I'm starting to entertain the idea that he had to kill Keith in order to see just how far low he had sunk, before he could ever think about redeeming himself in any sort of way. Now, I don't know if I'm a full blown subscriber to this ideology, but it's sure been strutting around in the peripheral shadows of my mind with its put-on cynical snarky undertones. Maybe it's worthy of a discussion, what say Flannie-pants?!You up for it?!

Okay, I really hope you don't feel like you've worn out your welcome in this thread because you haven't!

I think it's an interesting theory...I really do. I find it interesting that the only reasons for Dan's revenge that have been brought forward by others is because Keith slept with Deb and he thought Keith tried to kill him. But it goes so much further than that!

Dan and Keith's relationship was never strong. From the off we get the impression that they're relationship is incredibly fractured. While I always get a kick out off Keith putting Dan down I, like soulunsung, recognise that Dan was anything but born a monster. Dan wanted to be a father to Lucas but Keith was there before him and he was rejected. And Dan has carried that around for more than half his life. To just say Dan is a monster and that is that, I find so hard to accept. And not just because I disagree but because the whole show does not give us ANY opportunity to remain in a fixed point of thought when it comes to Dan Scott.

As to the theory, I'm not sure. I need to think about it more. Straight off, I'd say that the fact Dan takes so long to take responsibility for it pushes me away from it. But at the same time, does Dan do anything horrendous (and I mean really and truly awful with no motive/incentive that he would have seen as more important ie: Nathan/Jamie) after he confesses and goes to prison?

At the moment I can entertain that Dan needed to something so tragically awful as what he did to even entertain for a second that he needed to think about who he was...
 
H
Harley
[No message]
M
Marisa
Nathan has come a long way his journey is one of the best. He has just become a wonderful man.
While I love Brooke's journey, I don't find hers to be the biggest change. I think that goes to Nathan. (Or I'd possibly accept they're pretty equal because they overcame very similar things.) Okay, I really hope you don't feel like you've worn out your welcome in this thread because you haven't!

I think it's an interesting theory...I really do. I find it interesting that the only reasons for Dan's revenge that have been brought forward by others is because Keith slept with Deb and he thought Keith tried to kill him. But it goes so much further than that!

Dan and Keith's relationship was never strong. From the off we get the impression that they're relationship is incredibly fractured. While I always get a kick out off Keith putting Dan down I, like soulunsung, recognise that Dan was anything but born a monster. Dan wanted to be a father to Lucas but Keith was there before him and he was rejected. And Dan has carried that around for more than half his life. To just say Dan is a monster and that is that, I find so hard to accept. And not just because I disagree but because the whole show does not give us ANY opportunity to remain in a fixed point of thought when it comes to Dan Scott.

As to the theory, I'm not sure. I need to think about it more. Straight off, I'd say that the fact Dan takes so long to take responsibility for it pushes me away from it. But at the same time, does Dan do anything horrendous (and I mean really and truly awful with no motive/incentive that he would have seen as more important ie: Nathan/Jamie) after he confesses and goes to prison?

At the moment I can entertain that Dan needed to something so tragically awful as what he did to even entertain for a second that he needed to think about who he was...

Oh, good about the spoiler tags. I was getting quite confused a bit, using them. lol.

As far as Brooke goes, I personally feel like her journey was one of the biggest changes, for a lot of reasons. For me, it was just as phenomenal as Nathan's, for different reasons. I look at Brooke, in the way that I looked at Cordy as far as character growth goes. It's similar in some ways, while still being different in a lot of other's. However, I will agree that both Brooke and Nathan's journey's are probably equal. Because at the end of the day I love both character's fiercely and I love how much they have changed for the better.

Oh, I don't know, for a minute I felt like I wasn't welcomed because of my opinion regarding Dan, but I think I'm okay now. Thanks for the reassurance. 🙂

You're right, it does go much deeper than that, where Dan is concerned. Those were just a couple of the reasons that came to mind when I was putting this theory together in my head. lol. Aided by Marissa a bit.

My basic point is that you cannot really denigrate Dan to a "monster" status, while elevating Keith upwards to a "sainthood" status. There are a lot of good things about the character of Dan that goes unnoticed and some of them you pointed out. I'm sure that people forget that when Dan found out that Karen had a baby, that he was going to leave Deb and go back to her because he did want to be a father and he was in love with Karen - had never stopped loving her. But, it was only when he found out that Deb was pregnant too, that he chose to stay with her and be a father to Nathan.

Also, I think it's safe to point out there's a difference in the way that Keith and Dan were treated by their father, as well. I feel like there was sort of a cycle of "implied" maybe verbal/emotional abuse or some sort of favoritism that was inherent while they were growing up together. I feel like Dan caught a lot of that, like there were comparisons being drawn and it was already established that Dan was the "black sheep" or well maybe Cain, while Keith was "the good son" Able, if you will. I think that factors in quite a bit, as well. But, nobody wants to look at that, because it's much easier to posit Dan as a "monster."

But the thing is, this was Dan's story arc, I would have been mad if the writer's had him confessing in the first three episodes of the season, carted him off to jail to do his little time, and then that just be that. I love the fact that he went through the stages of his guilt, we got to see how it ate away at him, we got to see him finally realize just exactly what he'd done and the ramifications of it, we got to see him go through the process of deciding whether or not to do the right thing, and in the end he did do it. I think this is a storyline that needed to be carried out over the course of the season and I think that it was done very well.

The fact that he waited so long to turn himself in, doesn't bother me so much. It doesn't diminish the fact that I believe he was trying to do the right thing, he was just grappling with said choice. I think he knew that he had EVERYTHING to lose when he did this and I believe that he was also scared to lose the little footing that he had been gaining with both Karen and Lucas. Maybe he was desperately trying to hold onto that by taking so long, but the guilt was still eating him, and so he had to in the end, do what in my opinion can only be the right thing.

Maybe he did have some selfish motives for doing it, but then again maybe he didn't as well. In any case, his storyline that season is pretty much what kept me watching. Although, you do bring up a good point, or rather pose a good discussion.

I think all that time that he served, really did give him a space and time to really look inward at himself, and find out why he did what he did and how he came to be the man that he is or well, rather was at that point.

Oh, and one more thing for those who subscribe to the fact that Dan is/has/will always be a "monster," he saved Jamie's life and I do not believe for one minute that he did that with selfish reasons trying to get back into his son(s) lives and their good graces. I don't believe that it was any penance that he was paying either. I believe that he did it, because it was his grandson and he truly loved him and he wanted to protect him and keep him safe and also because Jamie is really the only one who loved Dan unconditionally BEFORE he was ever told what Dan did.

I don't think that's the act of a "monster." I think that's the act of a really good man who did a lot of horrible things in his life, that is trying to be a better man now.
 
M
Marisa
Very good points and the part about the cycle of parenting, I got the hint as well that the dad treated Dan like the black sheep.
As far as Brooke goes, I personally feel like her journey was one of the biggest changes, for a lot of reasons. For me, it was just as phenomenal as Nathan's, for different reasons. I look at Brooke, in the way that I looked at Cordy as far as character growth goes. It's similar in some ways, while still being different in a lot of other's. However, I will agree that both Brooke and Nathan's journey's are probably equal. Because at the end of the day I love both character's fiercely and I love how much they have changed for the better.

I think it is something that is very much down to a personal feeling. Brooke and Cordy is a good comparison, as is Brooke and Summer from The O.C. Brooke and Nathan overcame very similar problems and I love that scene in S6 when Nathan goes to see her and says as much.


Also, I think it's safe to point out there's a difference in the way that Keith and Dan were treated by their father, as well. I feel like there was sort of a cycle of "implied" maybe verbal/emotional abuse or some sort of favoritism that was inherent while they were growing up together. I feel like Dan caught a lot of that, like there were comparisons being drawn and it was already established that Dan was the "black sheep" or well maybe Cain, while Keith was "the good son" Able, if you will. I think that factors in quite a bit, as well. But, nobody wants to look at that, because it's much easier to posit Dan as a "monster."

I agree that there's a cycle of parenting going on but very much disagree that it's Dan who was the 'black sheep'. I think the animosity Keith feels towards Dan is because HE was the favourite. I do think that Dan, as well as Keith, suffered from verbal/emotional abuse at the hands of Royal but for Dan it was because he was the favourite. In season one when Dan's parents show up, I think its quite clear that Dan has become his father - hence the huge fall out from the revelations at his birthday dinner. When they're having breakfast the next day Royal makes that comment about how Keith is a good man and Keith replies by saying that he's waited a long time to have his dad say something positive about him but it means nothing when its just a backhanded insult at Dan. Dan was the basketball star, he was the one that Royal put all his hopes and dreams into. So while I agree it probably laid the foundations for the rocky relationship between the brothers, I don't think it's down to Keith being the favourite.

I love the fact that he went through the stages of his guilt, we got to see how it ate away at him, we got to see him finally realize just exactly what he'd done and the ramifications of it, we got to see him go through the process of deciding whether or not to do the right thing, and in the end he did do it. I think this is a storyline that needed to be carried out over the course of the season and I think that it was done very well.

True. How anyone can watch that scene with the beautiful MoZella song playing where Dan tries to hang himself and call him a monster.

The fact that he waited so long to turn himself in, doesn't bother me so much. It doesn't diminish the fact that I believe he was trying to do the right thing, he was just grappling with said choice. I think he knew that he had EVERYTHING to lose when he did this and I believe that he was also scared to lose the little footing that he had been gaining with both Karen and Lucas. Maybe he was desperately trying to hold onto that by taking so long, but the guilt was still eating him, and so he had to in the end, do what in my opinion can only be the right thing.

The relationship he had begun to build with Karen and Lucas is definitely the reason he took so long to confess. I'd go so far to say that his confession was driven by a realisation that although he relished the second chance he had been given, it was because he had taken something away from them; something he would never be able to replace. Nothing he could do for them would ever fill the void in their lives and in his own so he gave up the game.

Oh, and one more thing for those who subscribe to the fact that Dan is/has/will always be a "monster," he saved Jamie's life and I do not believe for one minute that he did that with selfish reasons trying to get back into his son(s) lives and their good graces. I don't believe that it was any penance that he was paying either. I believe that he did it, because it was his grandson and he truly loved him and he wanted to protect him and keep him safe and also because Jamie is really the only one who loved Dan unconditionally BEFORE he was ever told what Dan did.

I don't think that's the act of a "monster." I think that's the act of a really good man who did a lot of horrible things in his life, that is trying to be a better man now.

Definitely. I think its important to remember how conflicted Nathan and Haley feel when it comes to Jamie and Dan. He didn't do it for any other reason than it was his grandson. It wasn't about worming his way back into Nathan's life - his submission after Nathan and Lucas attack him is a testament to that. Haley really struggles with her feelings about Dan after all the Jamie stuff and I think the audience are supposed to be as contentious towards it as the other characters are. Lucas is one of the only ones who couldn't care less what good Dan has done - which as we've said before soulunsung, reflects the fact that sadly, Lucas will never be able to let go of that hate. I completely understand it and I'd probably be the same, but it makes me sad FOR Lucas.
 
I think it is something that is very much down to a personal feeling. Brooke and Nathan overcame very similar problems and I love that scene in S6 when Nathan goes to see her and says as much.

Which is why I made sure to say that it's how "I personally," felt about Brooke's journey. 🙂 And yes, that is a wonderful scene between her and Nathan, which I cherish quite a bit.

As for the cycle of parenting where both Dan and Keith are concerned, I'll concede to your points, because it's been some years since I've seen the earlier seasons and I have not seen the later most recent. I sometimes forget that Dan was the favorite of the two boys, in so far as Royal goes. And I definitely agree that Dan had become Royal at that point during the show and I also feel like maybe some part of himself hated that fact, too.

rue. How anyone can watch that scene with the beautiful MoZella song playing where Dan tries to hang himself and call him a monster.

I just don't even know, honestly, that scene haunts me to this day. It was a very beautifully and a very harrowing telling. Here he is clearly not a monster, but a man who very much hates himself so much for what he's done, that he's clearly willing to go ahead and give up his own life by his own hands, since those hands are the ones responsible for the things that he's done - all of the things - leading up to this moment. It's his last act of desperation, really. And I think it's a very telling one, as I said before. The dark illustrious richness of this story being told.

How anyone can't appreciate it for what it is and what it represents, a man dealing with a demon essentially living inside, eating him up, spitting out bits and pieces of little by little, destroying everything good about him and here he is, trying to do the right thing and feeling like a failure.

I'd go so far to say that his confession was driven by a realisation that although he relished the second chance he had been given, it was because he had taken something away from them; something he would never be able to replace. Nothing he could do for them would ever fill the void in their lives and in his own so he gave up the game.

YES! This. I have been trying to say this for the last few years now and it doesn't seem like anybody really wants to listen to reason. And why not?! Because he killed Keith and Keith didn't deserve to die. Alright, I can buy that for a minute, but in the next breath I'm going to tell you that it can't be the only reason. One has to look at everything, all sides and angles, before they make their decision.

But, I guess it's hard to be objective when you're talking the death of a man who didn't deserve to die and who was, a good portion of the time a really good man.

In getting back to your point, yes it was much easier for him to give up than it was to keep fighting the ghost and the hauntings of the past for the things that he'd done. He'd lost EVERYTHING by this point, so he had NOTHING ELSE left to really lose - except - maybe he did. He had his life to lose, which he took or well tried to take, into his own hands and didn't exactly get to succeed.

I've seen that scene only once, the scene where Dan tries to hang himself, because it's hard for me to watch that when I love the character so much, but sometime tells me that I need to go back and re-watch and re-analyze everything I ever thought about it to begin with. It might help to paint a very different picture, of what I'm not exactly sure, but it might help in understanding Dan a bit more.

Definitely. I think its important to remember how conflicted Nathan and Haley feel when it comes to Jamie and Dan. He didn't do it for any other reason than it was his grandson. It wasn't about worming his way back into Nathan's life - his submission after Nathan and Lucas attack him is a testament to that. Haley really struggles with her feelings about Dan after all the Jamie stuff and I think the audience are supposed to be as contentious towards it as the other characters are. Lucas is one of the only ones who couldn't care less what good Dan has done - which as we've said before soulunsung, reflects the fact that sadly, Lucas will never be able to let go of that hate. I completely understand it and I'd probably be the same, but it makes me sad FOR Lucas.

This whole paragraph, really. I mean, it always irked me something fierce when people acted like Dan only saved Jamie so that he could get back into Nathan/Haley and Lucas's good graces. That was even the point at all, the point was when nobody else could save Jamie, it was Dan that was able to do it and he brought the boy home safely only to be attacked and ridiculed and hated even more.

And you do have a point, the confliction over Dan between Nathan and Haley, really does need to be looked at a little bit closer. Haley is thinking about Jamie and the fact that all he sees in his grandpa Dan is a good man, a very good man who saved his life and protected him with his own regardless of the effects that it would have on him or how it might look to other's. She doesn't trust Dan, not by a long shot as proven in the past that every time she's given him chances he's pretty much failed her, but her son is more important and if having a relationship with his grandpa is what he wants then I think a part of her will put one thing away to sort of fight for this a bit.

While I think I understand Lucas's hatred of Dan and the fact that he will not let go of this hatred any time soon or at all, it not only makes me so very sad for him, but it also continues to frustrate me on a minor level as well. I can't put my finger on exactly why it does, but it just does. And I hesitate to say something else regarding Lucas, for fear that it might be taken the wrong way.
 
Fun fact the episode where Keith was killed was on today on soapnet. I was like oh wow was just talking about that.
 
S
soulunsung
And this is why I wish I subscribed to soapnet. ;)
I like OTH. I'm currently watching season 7. I'm a bit dubious about two of the main characters not being in the show, especially since the show started and was aimed around the relationship between Nathan and Luke.

I've always been a huge Nathan and Haley fan. I've loved watching them grow and deal with everything that's been thrown at them. I have to say that I'm leading towards the Brooke/Julian relationship. I just think Julian is so sweet!!

I think my least favorite season has been season 2, mainly because of the Nathan/Haley story line.

I loved characters like Jake, I just wished they hadnt written him out. And I was so shocked at how Keith's story finished.

I think its a show thats come far and I still enjoy watching the characters develop. I cant wait to finish watching season 7.
 
Back
Top Bottom