Out Of Character (OOC) Moments

[garfan]

S6 gives the feeling that it was a bunch of rejected soap scripts that were stretched out and had vampires, magic and demons added. And I get the impression that this is because it was exactly that.

added?

The coven informed Giles that 'a dangerous magical power, a dark force fueled by grief', had risen in the Hellmouth; that much is 100% accurate. The vision, by a seer, was about Tara's death. That's also accurate.
No bad intel, only the need for Dark Willow to be stopped. The way they went about it was insanely risky imo.

my thought on the "bad intel" is they thought Willow was already apocalyptic so adding the magic that lets her feel everything in the world wouldn't change anything

I do wonder if Giles had not turned up and incited Willow into trying to destroy the world, something even Tara's death did not do - well done Giles! - if she would have just killed Andrew (a pleasant thought) and Jonathan, then just given up. Especially if the Scoobies had simply got out of the way.

Possibly. But she still had all that dark magic inside her; although her motivations to murder might've been over she could've decided to do other unhinged things in an attempt to keep 'charged up' at her current power level; like what she did to Rack, hunting down other magic users and 'draining' them for more juice.
Or she might've just gone away by herself to brood, mourn, commit seppuku, whatever.

I think her "I'm not coming back definitely suggests post vengeance suicide. Which given the way season played out is definitely a threat to the world

Fun fact all the apocalypse's between S6 and S10 are as directly or indirectly caused by the actions of the good guys; giving Dark Willow more power so she could destroy the world, allowing The First to act, shagging Twilight, Xander helping the baddies into The Deeper Well, the good guys putting their full trust in D'Hoffryn....

Really, they had a good first handful of years but really began to suck more and more as they went on.

Not so good. The prophecy in season 1? Only known about cause Angel retrieved a lost book. Angelus is obvious. The Scoobies would have successfully prevented the Ascension if not for Faith changing sides. Adam is only activated after. Buffy brings in a demon the Initiative troops can't. And Glory only finds them cause they call Ben for help.

For every time Buffy having friends and allies helped save her it also endangered the world.

Almost makes the Watcher's isolation seem sensible

It is hard to come to any conclusion because Dark Willow wanting to destroy the world had absolutely nothing to do with any of the supposed messages of the season. Was it caused by power corrupting? Nope. Was it caused by the revolting Magic is Now Drugs? Nope. Was it caused by Warren killing Tara? Still nope. No, it was caused by Giles, after not giving a damn about the Scoobies for most of the season, popping up out of nowhere and completely botching things. A total mess.

It kinda works if you squint. if 'Life Is The Big Bad' all along then what do you do with that as a writing concept? Can't 'punch the Big Bad in the face like usual. So you have one of the characters, in a supreme burst of egotism and nihilism, attempt to 'kill' the Big Bad, to destroy all life and existence because all life is is just suffering and meaningless and the suffering has to end. But love is not meaningless and so it ends suffering. So, like the sign says, love wins.

Which is fine for a concept but its been explored better in other seasons- in a shorter amount of time and with more nuance (Angel S2 for example) and is in fact really one of the fundamental themes/philosophies of the show.
And here it is laid stark; stripped of metaphor, imagination and (ironically) magic. S6 is for people who like their themes blatant and administered with a sledgehammer subtlety.

Got to squint hard. Cause even the "egotism and nihilism" was caused by the Willow sucking in more magic than expected while already irrational

 

[thetopher]

Not so good. The prophecy in season 1? Only known about cause Angel retrieved a lost book. Angelus is obvious. The Scoobies would have successfully prevented the Ascension if not for Faith changing sides. Adam is only activated after. Buffy brings in a demon the Initiative troops can't. And Glory only finds them cause they call Ben for help.

None of these are directly or indirectly the cause of Buffy or a scoobie specifically, no cause and effect:
The Master: Technically true, give the prophecy. But the prophecy is destiny, so not the fault of Buffy and co. Also the very fact that Buffy HAD allies meant that she could come back from being drowned and stop the Master. not a good case for slayer isolationism in this case.
Angelus; his apocalypse came out of pretty much no-where and had very little; directly or indirectly, to do with Buffy and co. Sure, Buffy (unknowingly) unleashed him but she also stopped him, as she would've done that well before any apocalyptic scheme., There is no direct cause and effect.
The Mayor: been planning the scheme decades before Buffy even showed up. Faith's presence had a negligible effect on the Mayor's schemes since she merely replaced Mr. Trick who was also an effective right hand.
The Initiative/Adam was also not directly or indirectly caused by Buffy and co. Walsh's schemes were well in place. Her presence just altered the timeline as to when Adam would wake up and rampage. All Buffy did was (probably) save Riley from a similar fate. And also NOT do what Adam wanted.
Glory: blame the monks. The monks sent the Key to the Hellmouth cuz that's where the slayer was. Nothing to do with any actions Buffy and co. took.

So I disagree, the first 5 seasons are not directly cause, S6-10 are.

 

[AlphaFoxtrot]

Re: Soap Scripts; A lot of Season Six does feel that way. Joss's true genius is as a script doctor, so, without that rewriting ability, a lot of scripts so feel like Find/Replace, especially Rack.

 

[garfan]

The Mayor: been planning the scheme decades before Buffy even showed up. Faith's presence had a negligible effect on the Mayor's schemes since she merely replaced Mr. Trick who was also an effective right hand.

He was dead by that point though.

The Scoobies successfully got the Box of Gavrock, an absolutely vital piece of the Ascension and only Faith grabbing Willow forced them to trade it back.

The Initiative/Adam was also not directly or indirectly caused by Buffy and co. Walsh's schemes were well in place. Her presence just altered the timeline as to when Adam would wake up and rampage. All Buffy did was (probably) save Riley from a similar fate. And also NOT do what Adam wanted.

Maybe, but I got the feeling that was not the first time the Initiative tried to take out that demon. I just think Buffy did something they weren't up to.

The point I was making in a couple of thesewas that in sometimes the Scoobies had the early win but weren't able to hold on and it was cause of peoplewho had been allies

 

[thetopher]

The Scoobies successfully got the Box of Gavrock, an absolutely vital piece of the Ascension and only Faith grabbing Willow forced them to trade it back.

So they got the box and then had to give it back, that's just a zero sum situation, they didn't 'cause' the apocalypse directly or indirectly they merely tried and failed to foil it. There's a significant difference.

Maybe, but I got the feeling that was not the first time the Initiative tried to take out that demon. I just think Buffy did something they weren't up to.

All due respect there is simply no evidence to support this, its a mere possibility, very far from 'direct cause'.

The point I was making in a couple of thesewas that in sometimes the Scoobies had the early win but weren't able to hold on and it was cause of peoplewho had been allies

Directly or indirectly means that if Buffy and the Scoobies hadn't been there/done something significant then the apocalypse would just not have happened at all. Dark Willow, Resurrecting Buffy, boinking Twilight, leading evil slayer into the Deeper Well, trusting D'Hoffryn with the sacred magic most important book, etc.

 

[Mott1]

Willow felt out of character in a lot of post Dark Willow season 7, for me. As stated previously, Giles turning up changed her motivations entirely, meaning we can’t even see her as ‘possessed’ by that point.

Also Giles in s7, where he was all over the place - the jokes about perving at the young slayers at the camp site bear no relation to the character who got angry at the mere suggestion previously. Also the ‘I don’t give a toss about your dead Slayer mother’ comments to Wood rather undo the power of his scenes draped on the cross in Beneath You. We arguably see him do more evil after his ‘repentance’ than before…

I suppose Dawn was out of character in that season too because she was actually quite likeable!

 

[NoShip]

EDIT: I act in my writing as though canon is canon, but honestly, I think the way Giles was written in the last 2 seasons ignores all of who he was before that... i think that's WRITING failure. I am taken outside of the narrative b/c this does not match the person that has been created unless we simply say 'yes, he's reverting to type' -- possible but it doesn't seem reasonable. I expect Giles to be ruthless... he was ruthless when he suggested killing Dawn (something that even Dawn herself realizes was to be considered as we see her on the tower). His actions after he learned Buffy had been in heaven were NOT understandable. If they'd written that his parents were in an accident, or that the council was considering murdering Buffy after learning she'd returned from the dead or something, it might have actually made sense for him to leave when he did. There was simply no effort made to have it make sense for the CHARACTERS or relationships.

Well..... Since we are talking outside the narrative. The Giles storyline was Whedon's very petty way of getting back at ASH for leaving.

When ASH first asked to be let out of his contract, Whedon refused. ASH, from a rather famous show-biz family, used their contacts to have that refusal reversed. Whedon was humiliated and we got the storyline we got.

The original idea was some terrible demonic threat in Europe that Giles was needed for.

 

[garfan]

Well..... Since we are talking outside the narrative. The Giles storyline was Whedon's very petty way of getting back at ASH for leaving.

When ASH first asked to be let out of his contract, Whedon refused. ASH, from a rather famous show-biz family, used their contacts to have that refusal reversed. Whedon was humiliated and we got the storyline we got.

The original idea was some terrible demonic threat in Europe that Giles was needed for.

dumbass not smart enough to realize that punishing the actors hurts the show

 

[NoShip]

It is hard to come to any conclusion because Dark Willow wanting to destroy the world had absolutely nothing to do with any of the supposed messages of the season. Was it caused by power corrupting? Nope. Was it caused by the revolting Magic is Now Drugs? Nope. Was it caused by Warren killing Tara? Still nope. No, it was caused by Giles, after not giving a damn about the Scoobies for most of the season, popping up out of nowhere and completely botching things. A total mess.

Some reasons for The Dark Willow Apocalypse.
1. Joss Whedon's Ego - he thought he could do a Dark Phoenix Saga better than Marvel and set out to prove it.
2. Ratings - S6 was hated by the audience (meaning the 80% of viewers not on the boards or web sites or in fandoms) when broadcast in 2001-2002. Ratings were dropping & UPN was restless. Whedon & Co tried to put together a spectacular final arc with the personal stakes of the Angelus arc and the spectacle of Graduation Day and the high emotions of The Gift. It didn't work, but, they tried.

The fundamental problem was Whedon did not know how to delegate and Noxon did not know how to run a TV show. Things would get a bit better in S7, but, nothing like the heights of S2 or S3 or S5.

 

[garfan]

Some reasons for The Dark Willow Apocalypse.
1. Joss Whedon's Ego - he thought he could do a Dark Phoenix Saga better than Marvel and set out to prove it.
2. Ratings - S6 was hated by the audience (meaning the 80% of viewers not on the boards or web sites or in fandoms) when broadcast in 2001-2002. Ratings were dropping & UPN was restless. Whedon & Co tried to put together a spectacular final arc with the personal stakes of the Angelus arc and the spectacle of Graduation Day and the high emotions of The Gift. It didn't work, but, they tried.

The fundamental problem was Whedon did not know how to delegate and Noxon did not know how to run a TV show. Things would get a bit better in S7, but, nothing like the heights of S2 or S3 or S5.

honestly, I'm surprised the ratings had anything to do with it. I remember Joss saying Willow would be the big bad of season 6 after season 5, it's just Joss is a liar so...

Overall Willow's run as Dark Willow was both blatantly obvious and a total asspull. It's kind of impressive

And season 6 was not popular with the other 20% of the audience either.

 

[NoShip]

And season 6 was not popular with the other 20% of the audience either.

You are right.

So..... Why the seeming popularity of S6 recently? I see a lot of people claiming S6 as their favorite.

 

[garfan]

You are right.

So..... Why the seeming popularity of S6 recently? I see a lot of people claiming S6 as their favorite.

some part of me thinks contrarianism, but another part thinks a combination of binge watching an watching spoiled makes it easier for them to endure

or the few people who did like it, it wasn't totally without defenders they were just rare, promoting it

 

[NoShip]

some part of me thinks contrarianism, but another part thinks a combination of binge watching an watching spoiled makes it easier for them to endure

or the few people who did like it, it wasn't totally without defenders they were just rare, promoting it

😀

Post automatically merged: Jun 14, 2024

honestly, I'm surprised the ratings had anything to do with it. I remember Joss saying Willow would be the big bad of season 6 after season 5, it's just Joss is a liar so...

What I remember is UPN being ridden hard by CBS-Paramount about the ratings dropping after UPN spent more than double what WB did to get Buffy and wanting a really spectacular Finale Arc to set up a big jump in ratings in S7.

I want to say there is more but I cannot remember what it is.

I don't think fans realize how much network & studio & corporate agendas influenced Buffy storylines.

 

[hoponlilmama]

Out of character moments:

-Oz/Veruca storyline and disappearing afterwards not telling Willow
-Giles leaving Buffy in s6
-Riley and the vamp biting storyline
-Spike 'falling in love' with Buffy

 

[RachM]

Well..... Since we are talking outside the narrative. The Giles storyline was Whedon's very petty way of getting back at ASH for leaving.

When ASH first asked to be let out of his contract, Whedon refused. ASH, from a rather famous show-biz family, used their contacts to have that refusal reversed. Whedon was humiliated and we got the storyline we got.

The original idea was some terrible demonic threat in Europe that Giles was needed for.

Is this true? I mean, it definitely sounds like something Joss would do but I've literally never heard this before. Do you have an info source you could link to?

 

[NotASlayer]

Well..... Since we are talking outside the narrative. The Giles storyline was Whedon's very petty way of getting back at ASH for leaving.

When ASH first asked to be let out of his contract, Whedon refused. ASH, from a rather famous show-biz family, used their contacts to have that refusal reversed. Whedon was humiliated and we got the storyline we got.

The original idea was some terrible demonic threat in Europe that Giles was needed for.

So, Joss thinks the actors are purely there to serve his will and doesn't care just what they think or whether what he wants is best for them? That sounds familiar. Just how much input did Joss have on writing how Spike treated Buffy?

 

[NoShip]

Is this true? I mean, it definitely sounds like something Joss would do but I've literally never heard this before. Do you have an info source you could link to?

Back in the day I worked for a company that was contracted to provide business services to 20th Century Fox 'Banners' (aka subordinate production companies). While talking shop before a meeting, one of the 20th executives updated his colleagues (and us) on issues with Buffy. Head's exit was a big part of the conversation.

 

[AlphaFoxtrot]

Huh, Joss's idea of payback is making up stories about how men have abandoned him, what are the odds?

 

[NoShip]

I think the biggest OOC moment of the entire series was in Bring On The Night when Giles told Buffy that she had to be in charge and he was behind that 100%.

 

[Joan the Vampire Slayer]

Out of character moments:

-Oz/Veruca storyline and disappearing afterwards not telling Willow
-Giles leaving Buffy in s6
-Riley and the vamp biting storyline
-Spike 'falling in love' with Buffy

You think it was out of character for Spike to fall in love with Buffy? Interesting,
Why?