Out Of Character (OOC) Moments

[hoponlilmama]

You think it was out of character for Spike to fall in love with Buffy? Interesting,
Why?

Let me just say first off, it's not my intention to offend or sound rude when I respond, because my response might sound pretty blunt:

It was out of character for Spike to 'fall in love' with Buffy - because she's his natural enemy (Angel is obviously the exception to the rule as he has a soul). He's a soulless demon.
Hanging around with your natural enemy isn't natural and isn't something other vamps do. The chip in his head I think has a lot to answer for.

He couldn't conquer Buffy by normal means (i.e killing her) and we know Spike gets off on conquering Slayers. So he conquered her in another manner. It was a twisted obsession, not love.

A couple of fan theories mentioned here make sense and lend some weight - Willow's 'will be done' spell never fully wore off; Xander remained a demon magnet, Giles didn't see things, so the lingering effects of the spell remained and he thought he 'loved' her. Another fan theory is the spell the monks did when we got Dawn - altering memories, add that with Spike's chip and it probably skewed things in his mind.

From a practical view - it was retreading old ground the slayer/vamp romance. Joss specifically said he had no idea what to do with Spike and it's obvious. As viewers, what we get is Spike waking up in Out of My Mind in shock with a 'Oh my God, I love Buffy' reaction that came out of thin air. Very weird.

Someone here on the forum (sorry, I've forgotten who it was!) said the 'relationship' put a noose around the neck of the series, and it's true. It damaged his character. I love Spike prior to s5, he didn't need some major storyline. The chip in his head and adjusting to unlife as a neutered vamp and reluctant ally to the Scooby gang was enough.

As talented an actor James is, Spike was at his best as a side-character.

 

[NoShip]

You think it was out of character for Spike to fall in love with Buffy? Interesting,
Why?

Personally, I do, because, even with Dru, Spike's "love" as shown is obsession. The best-ever definition of love was written 2000 years ago. It starts out "Love is Patient. Love is Kind....." Spike isn't patient or kind with anyone, including his "loves". Spike richly fulfills the negative non-love characteristics while almost never doing any of the positive ones.

From a Human point of view, Spike's treatment of Dru is as abusive as it is loving. He's always ridiculing her and for every kind act, there is at least one nasty act.

He is mindblowingly impatient with her and many of their behaviors are quick studies in the cycle of abuse. Unfornately, none of this changes with Buffy.

 

[GreyWalker1958]

dumbass not smart enough to realize that punishing the actors hurts the show

Of course said dumbass didn't care. Not in 2001 nor the following year when he done worse to CC

 

[garfan]

Let me just say first off, it's not my intention to offend or sound rude when I respond, because my response might sound pretty blunt:

It was out of character for Spike to 'fall in love' with Buffy - because she's his natural enemy (Angel is obviously the exception to the rule as he has a soul). He's a soulless demon.
Hanging around with your natural enemy isn't natural and isn't something other vamps do. The chip in his head I think has a lot to answer for.

He couldn't conquer Buffy by normal means (i.e killing her) and we know Spike gets off on conquering Slayers. So he conquered her in another manner. It was a twisted obsession, not love.

A couple of fan theories mentioned here make sense and lend some weight - Willow's 'will be done' spell never fully wore off; Xander remained a demon magnet, Giles didn't see things, so the lingering effects of the spell remained and he thought he 'loved' her. Another fan theory is the spell the monks did when we got Dawn - altering memories, add that with Spike's chip and it probably skewed things in his mind.

From a practical view - it was retreading old ground the slayer/vamp romance. Joss specifically said he had no idea what to do with Spike and it's obvious. As viewers, what we get is Spike waking up in Out of My Mind in shock with a 'Oh my God, I love Buffy' reaction that came out of thin air. Very weird.

Someone here on the forum (sorry, I've forgotten who it was!) said the 'relationship' put a noose around the neck of the series, and it's true. It damaged his character. I love Spike prior to s5, he didn't need some major storyline. The chip in his head and adjusting to unlife as a neutered vamp and reluctant ally to the Scooby gang was enough.

As talented an actor James is, Spike was at his best as a side-character.

Prey doesn't exactly tend to go out of it's way to hunt down their predators either, but that's something Spike does. Xander was no more of a demon magnet than he was prior the spell. However the Will Be Done Spell and Faith's stealing Buffy's body put the concept of Buffy as someone to think of sexually in his head

of course if you're going to blame the Dawn spell, I don't see why you should accept any of the emotions she engenders

Personally, I do, because, even with Dru, Spike's "love" as shown is obsession. The best-ever definition of love was written 2000 years ago. It starts out "Love is Patient. Love is Kind....." Spike isn't patient or kind with anyone, including his "loves". Spike richly fulfills the negative non-love characteristics while almost never doing any of the positive ones.

From a Human point of view, Spike's treatment of Dru is as abusive as it is loving. He's always ridiculing her and for every kind act, there is at least one nasty act.

He is mindblowingly impatient with her and many of their behaviors are quick studies in the cycle of abuse. Unfornately, none of this changes with Buffy.

As crazy as she is, I think he is incredibly patient with her. Honestly in the late 90s early 00s Buffy was one of several programs/movies that tried to define love, Charmed and the Star Wars prequels were the others, the prequels obviously did it differently than Buffy and Charmed, only for the fans to say "that's not what love is" and it to cause problems with the storytelling

 

[hoponlilmama]

Prey doesn't exactly tend to go out of it's way to hunt down their predators either, but that's something Spike does.

Correct. We know Spike loves the thrill of chasing Slayers.

Xander was no more of a demon magnet than he was prior the spell. However the Will Be Done Spell and Faith's stealing Buffy's body put the concept of Buffy as someone to think of sexually in his head

Yes, we know Spike not only rates the fighting style of Slayers, but also their looks and whether he wants to 'dance' with them. Spike is frustrated in s4. As I said in my previous post - couldn't conquer Buffy by killing her - so his obsessive thoughts became twisted into something else.

And in s5 we get the ridiculous storyline of him 'falling in love' with Buffy.

of course if you're going to blame the Dawn spell, I don't see why you should accept any of the emotions she engenders

Again - these are fan theories. Just throwing them out there, a bit of discussion. As others do with other fan theories. They're obviously not confirmed as canon, but when you look at the show, they do make sense.

 

[burrunjor]

Spike in seasons 5-7 of Buffy, all of them in season 7 LOL.

I also think Cordelia is a bit too mean to Buffy in later season 3 when she'd matured and become a nice person really near the end of season 1. From Prophecy Girl on Cordy seems like she likes the Scooby's ironically more than they like her and wants to be part of their gang like in The Dark Age when she expects Buffy to have a job for her.

Obviously I get her not wanting to have anything to do with Xander and Willow, but her hatred of Buffy seems to come out of nowhere. Ironically she shows more open hostility towards Buffy than she does to Willow. (To be fair maybe that was reflective of the real actresses as Charisma and Alyson I've read were good friends, where as Charisma and Sarah I've read had some problems?)

 

[thetopher]

Obviously I get her not wanting to have anything to do with Xander and Willow, but her hatred of Buffy seems to come out of nowhere. Ironically she shows more open hostility towards Buffy than she does to Willow.

Guilt by association. Cordelia even states in 'The Wish' that her life was fine before Buffy came; so without Buffy she doesn't get the heartache of Xander and him cheating on her with Willow followed by the loss of social status and school-wide humiliation.
There's a twisted logic to it; 'this' then 'then' this so 'I hate both'. She still recognizes that Buffy is important to the world, so she'll still help but she'll also occasionally lash out.

Also I also factor in Cordelia's disintegrating home life in late S3 (I'm guessing between 'Earshot' and 'Choices') that's revealed in 'The Prom'; she's going to lose all her money and her Dad/parents are going to jail for federal tax fraud. My understanding is that the US is surprisingly harsh with tax evasion- long prison sentences.

 

[NotASlayer]

Guilt by association. Cordelia even states in 'The Wish' that her life was fine before Buffy came; so without Buffy she doesn't get the heartache of Xander and him cheating on her with Willow followed by the loss of social status and school-wide humiliation.
There's a twisted logic to it; 'this' then 'then' this so 'I hate both'. She still recognizes that Buffy is important to the world, so she'll still help but she'll also occasionally lash out.

In "The Wish", Cordelia linked everything bad happening to her to Buffy's arrival in Sunnydale. Of course, no-one remembers that in universe.

Also I also factor in Cordelia's disintegrating home life in late S3 (I'm guessing between 'Earshot' and 'Choices') that's revealed in 'The Prom'; she's going to lose all her money and her Dad/parents are going to jail for federal tax fraud. My understanding is that the US is surprisingly harsh with tax evasion- long prison sentences.

Whilst in the UK, HMRC would far rather come to an agreement, any agreement, that results in you giving them money than have you supported by HM Government. A more mercenary outlook.

 

[burrunjor]

Guilt by association. Cordelia even states in 'The Wish' that her life was fine before Buffy came; so without Buffy she doesn't get the heartache of Xander and him cheating on her with Willow followed by the loss of social status and school-wide humiliation.
There's a twisted logic to it; 'this' then 'then' this so 'I hate both'. She still recognizes that Buffy is important to the world, so she'll still help but she'll also occasionally lash out.

Also I also factor in Cordelia's disintegrating home life in late S3 (I'm guessing between 'Earshot' and 'Choices') that's revealed in 'The Prom'; she's going to lose all her money and her Dad/parents are going to jail for federal tax fraud. My understanding is that the US is surprisingly harsh with tax evasion- long prison sentences.

Even then I don't get why she is more okay with Willow in later episodes than Buffy. Ironically Willow seems to nurse more of a grudge towards Cordelia after S3.

 

[Kendar]

Guilt by association. Cordelia even states in 'The Wish' that her life was fine before Buffy came; so without Buffy she doesn't get the heartache of Xander and him cheating on her with Willow followed by the loss of social status and school-wide humiliation.
There's a twisted logic to it; 'this' then 'then' this so 'I hate both'. She still recognizes that Buffy is important to the world, so she'll still help but she'll also occasionally lash out.

Also I also factor in Cordelia's disintegrating home life in late S3 (I'm guessing between 'Earshot' and 'Choices') that's revealed in 'The Prom'; she's going to lose all her money and her Dad/parents are going to jail for federal tax fraud. My understanding is that the US is surprisingly harsh with tax evasion- long prison sentences.

It's also important to note that it is possible that Cordelia believes that the gang is only friendly with her because she is/was dating Xander. Once she breaks up with him she may feel she has no more place with them. So she ditched her early "friend" for Xander, and has now lost those friends.

 

[thetopher]

In "The Wish", Cordelia linked everything bad happening to her to Buffy's arrival in Sunnydale. Of course, no-one remembers that in universe.

Well Cordelia's revelation about Buffy being the 'first cause' of it all actually happens right before the wish-granting scene. So Cordelia would still remember that bit.

Even then I don't get why she is more okay with Willow in later episodes than Buffy.

Because Buffy caused everything. Also Cordelia got to rant at 'Willow' in Doppelgangland. Must've been pretty cathartic for her even if it turned out to be a vampire double.

Ironically Willow seems to nurse more of a grudge towards Cordelia after S3.

Not really, Willow and Cordelia are shown friend-phoning each other as early as 'Blind Date' in AtS S1 (Willow helps Cordy crack a computer code or something) and they still keep in touch after. And so when she comes to visit Willow is eager to see Cordelia in S4 despite Angel's predicament. Basically they've become better friends since highschool.

Meanwhile Buffy mocks Cordelia being dead in the comics. No love lost.

 

[garfan]

Even then I don't get why she is more okay with Willow in later episodes than Buffy. Ironically Willow seems to nurse more of a grudge towards Cordelia after S3.

That's not a grudge, in AtS, that's just two personalities clashing

 

[burrunjor]

That's not a grudge, in AtS, that's just two personalities clashing

I wasn't think on Ats where they are quite friendly and seem to talk on a regular basis as Cordy seems angry that Willow hasn't told her about Harmony.

I'm more thinking on Buffy where she still rips on Cordelia a lot in a bitter way.

 

[garfan]

I wasn't think on Ats where they are quite friendly and seem to talk on a regular basis as Cordy seems angry that Willow hasn't told her about Harmony.

I'm more thinking on Buffy where she still rips on Cordelia a lot in a bitter way.

I was talking Buffy and Cordelia. where Cordy does things likecalls her a crybuffy and makes fun of Buffy and Angel

 

[DeepBlueJoy]

I think Jonathan working with Warren was somewhat OOC. He liked attention, and was certainly selfish, but he was good-hearted in a lot of ways, and I feel like he should have sussed out Warren's evil sooner and refused to go along with his plans.

lots of kindhearted people who want attention and need to belong somewhere end up as followers... warren is the kind of person who gathers a gang of lonely, desperate people around him... and groups like that often let themselves be led by their 'mates' into truly awful crap. It's why they call it 'mob mentality'. They may realize they're going the wrong way but they don't want to lose their 'friends' and denial is often quite strong. Besides, Jonathan did try to control the world in Superstar, so while he isn't truly evil, i do question his moral compass. He wanted to be 'somebody' even if it was somebody 'bad'.

 

[hoponlilmama]

lots of kindhearted people who want attention and need to belong somewhere end up as followers... warren is the kind of person who gathers a gang of lonely, desperate people around him... and groups like that often let themselves be led by their 'mates' into truly awful crap. It's why they call it 'mob mentality'. They may realize they're going the wrong way but they don't want to lose their 'friends' and denial is often quite strong. Besides, Jonathan did try to control the world in Superstar, so while he isn't truly evil, i do question his moral compass. He wanted to be 'somebody' even if it was somebody 'bad'.

"I always wanted to be somebody. I should've been more specific."

 

[NotASlayer]

I seem to recall that the spell in Superstar made the user a paragon of good, rather than it being something intended to control the world. Because it had to be balanced by the creation of a paragon of evil at the same time.

 

[DeepBlueJoy]

I seem to recall that the spell in Superstar made the user a paragon of good, rather than it being something intended to control the world. Because it had to be balanced by the creation of a paragon of evil at the same time.

Well it made the person idealized and super... but as someone else pointed out, his glamour caused women to sleep with him who otherwise would not even look at him... and that's not a positive thing... It's rape.

He controlled how the world viewed him and influenced everyone to the point where the US military was taking advice from him... That is NOT goodness; that is dangerous. He may have made himself LOOK like a good guy, but the mind control and the amount of power he got from his spell meant he could have done just about anything or anyone... That is NOT a benign thing. He did not choose to do truly horrible things with the power but he stole EVERYONE's free will...

Essentially, people were beginning to worship him.

Who knows what he might have done with the power over the US military if the wrong person (or country) had annoyed him. He was all powerful. Without any of the experience or the kind of moral core that might temper his wilfulness in a crisis.

This means he did something almost all religions say their GODS don't do... he took people's free will. Inherent in the idea of choosing to believe in god is the idea that one can CHOOSE. Jonathan put himself above god. Jonathan put himself above god. HE chose to design reality AND how people would interact with him -- yes, including sex, which is therefore NON-CONSENSUAL. As I said: there's a name for that.

So no, Jonathan's reign may have been benign in his head, but there was nothing benign in making people fall in love with you, sleep with you and chase after you like obsessed teenagers. It's bad enough that teens do fall for superstars in real life (and that doesn't always end well) but they always have a choice to back away and most do as they grow up.

Jonathan's spell made people obsessed who would not even have liked him in real life. Even GILES was obsessed with Jonathan. That is quite a control spell.

First he and Andrew fell under the influence of Warren... because they still wanted to magically alter the way the world worked FOR THEM. And then they fell in with the first without even realizing it b/c they still were immature gits who wanted a world that wasn't going to go their way. It's why I never really see any reason to trust Andrew. In spite of the fact that I liked Jonathan during season 3 and felt sorry for him, I'm glad Jonathan died and didn't get 'forgiven' the way Andrew did. At least a vampire can say 'i didn't have a soul'. Something with a SOUL did the things that the trio of them did. Just... no. Even if Jonathan and Andrew weren't active participants in Warren's rape of his girlfriend (and that's not clear) they were at least accessories who let it happen.

I don't like that Willow flayed him in revenge, but Warren needed to be put down.

dumbass not smart enough to realize that punishing the actors hurts the show

He was a childish git. Narcissists don't actually see the consequences. They see the hurt they can cause.

You are right.

So..... Why the seeming popularity of S6 recently? I see a lot of people claiming S6 as their favorite.

Actually I believe season 6 had some of the best acting of the series. it is hard to watch, but it's like the 'literary' books that win Nobel prizes. It may not be a fun 'read' but it is complex, real and has fascinating character drawing. Once more with feeling is brilliant. No, i can't say it's my favourite but I don't hate it either. Honestly, i suspect that most people who hate Spuffy hate season 6. People who like Spuffy mostly don't seem to hate season 6.

Buffy coming apart in season 6 is the only thing that makes ANY sense from when she was revived in her coffin after being pulled from heaven. Either of those experiences is PTSD influencing... and she also came back to find the world was on fire literally and figuratively. For me it was very adult, very interesting, very intense TV. I found it fascinating though it wasn't always a 'happy' watching experience.

Now season 7 was a dumpster fire. That was lots of out of character writing and a lot of new faces thrown in and not developed and taking time away from resolving the arcs of the main characters. Andrew got in the way of Xander and I think that was a tragic mistake. Season 7 was really a mess. And the choice to have Giles come back and dump a bunch of stray girls on Buffy without much visible means of support (mental, emotional, financial, tactical) was crazy. Especially in Sunnydale on fire.

 

[NoShip]

Actually I believe season 6 had some of the best acting of the series. it is hard to watch, but it's like the 'literary' books that win Nobel prizes. It may not be a fun 'read' but it is complex, real and has fascinating character drawing. Once more with feeling is brilliant. No, i can't say it's my favourite but I don't hate it either. Honestly, i suspect that most people who hate Spuffy hate season 6. People who like Spuffy mostly don't seem to hate season 6.

I have to disagree with you on just about all the acting. The only brilliant acting came from SMG, the rest were, at best, ok. The storylines, where they existed, were predictable and kinda boring. I don't see the the complexity or "realness". To me, S6 plays like a reality tv show because everything seems completely set up, just like The Bachelor.

I know or know of as many Spuffies who despise S6 as love it. When I visit the boards, one's Spuffiness does not seem to predict one's feelings about the quality of S6.

What does seem to predict is whether or not you see your life experience protrayed in S6. Those that do, love S6. Those that don't, dislike or ignore it.

Another predictor seems to be when one started one's career. Those who started well before the Great Recession seem to truly dislike S6. Those who started their careers during or after seem.to be much better disposed towards S6.

Personally, I think S6 is where BTVS dropped off a cliff. The quality of the writing is way, way, way down. The stories don't really make much sense. The characters just wandering around and through various pits of despair does not make a seasonal arc. Buffy stops being Buffy and becomes trauma porn. The trauma and misery don't serve a story. They are just gratuitous and shocking just to be shocking.

I still can't explain what the point of S6 actually was. I agree that S7 was a dumpster file. But, S6 was a dumpster fire that burned much more brightly.

 

[garfan]

I'm a Spuffy enjoyer(I like all of Buffy's major relationships though) and I hate season 6 with a fiery passion