Overreacting to Spike's feelings?

[zobothehobo]

I'm currently doing a re-watch of season 5 and the same thing is getting me that's gotten me the other 3 times I've watched it. Why does everyone react so strongly to Spike's feelings? I mean, I get the whole tying her up thing was bad... But I don't think he would have done that if she hadn't reacted so strongly. If she had maybe been like "Well, I'm flattered that you like me... but I don't like you and have absolutely no interest in you" rather than yelling at him, telling him he doesn't actually feel that way, and saying she feels disgusting... maybe he wouldn't have tied her up. And in Crush when she tells Giles she feels disgusting and he says "No. You are not responsible for what Spike feels," it almost resembles a rape victim saying they feel dirty and disgusting and someone telling them they're not responsible for what happened... it's not quite like that because it's less serious... but it's the same idea. Why would Buffy feel disgusting that Spike likes her anyway? I can see being a little weirded out that he likes her... but feeling like she's disgusting... and being disgusted at him... I just don't get it. I'm currently on I Was Made to Love You at the part where Spike comes in the Magic Box and everyone's like "you need to leave," "stay away from us," "we're not your friends and we're not your way to Buffy." Everyone's SO mean to him. They react so strongly to his feelings which I feel gives him the right to react strongly to that. I mean can't they sympathize with falling for someone you know you shouldn't? Hasn't EVERYONE done that? It hurts enough as it is to fall for someone you've got no chance with... He honestly didn't mean to hurt her, he cares for her... I just don't get why everyone acts like it's his fault and like he's trying to hurt her.

Sorry for the long post and rant... it just annoys the crap out of me.

 

[dan k]

I think its a very good point you make. Buffy's reaction shows no understanding of how difficult this must be for Spike. Its not like he can turn his feelings off for her. I wish he'd of said something like "What do you want me to do? I can't help the way i feel?"

The Scoobies response isn't out of character, i would have expected them to behave like that and i can see validity in their claims that Spike was using them to get to Buffy. Lets face it he was doing just that, yet they themselves show no consideration for what Spike must be dealing with.

I think it comes down to the fact that the person in question is Spike. Both Buffy and the Scoobies have it rooted in their minds to have a strong disliking of Spike, thus they don't see him as a normal person.

 

[zobothehobo]

I can get that.. but I think they made matters worse and it just really bugs me how none of them ever take responsibility for that. They place the blame all on Spike and it's unfair and just annoying. More times than not, I've been where Spike is and it hurts.

 

[dan k]

I agree, they are very unfair towards Spike showing no regard for his feelings. Its hard not to feel sorry for him.

 

[Marisa]

That is one thing that always ticked me off beyond words. As I watch it more I get aggravated. I say this because yes Spike is not a normal human but everyone in the verse almost everyone has done questionable things and they make it seem like his are beyond words. Spike has helped them no matter which way he did and that has to count for something. I am glad it was different to the end but to answer your question they overreacted completely and during that scene at the magic box I want to give Spike a big hug.

 

[StarSlayer]

I'm currently doing a re-watch of season 5 and the same thing is getting me that's gotten me the other 3 times I've watched it. Why does everyone react so strongly to Spike's feelings? I mean, I get the whole tying her up thing was bad... But I don't think he would have done that if she hadn't reacted so strongly. If she had maybe been like "Well, I'm flattered that you like me... but I don't like you and have absolutely no interest in you" rather than yelling at him, telling him he doesn't actually feel that way, and saying she feels disgusting... maybe he wouldn't have tied her up. And in Crush when she tells Giles she feels disgusting and he says "No. You are not responsible for what Spike feels," it almost resembles a rape victim saying they feel dirty and disgusting and someone telling them they're not responsible for what happened... it's not quite like that because it's less serious... but it's the same idea. Why would Buffy feel disgusting that Spike likes her anyway? I can see being a little weirded out that he likes her... but feeling like she's disgusting... and being disgusted at him... I just don't get it. I'm currently on I Was Made to Love You at the part where Spike comes in the Magic Box and everyone's like "you need to leave," "stay away from us," "we're not your friends and we're not your way to Buffy." Everyone's SO mean to him. They react so strongly to his feelings which I feel gives him the right to react strongly to that. I mean can't they sympathize with falling for someone you know you shouldn't? Hasn't EVERYONE done that? It hurts enough as it is to fall for someone you've got no chance with... He honestly didn't mean to hurt her, he cares for her... I just don't get why everyone acts like it's his fault and like he's trying to hurt her.

Sorry for the long post and rant... it just annoys the crap out of me.

Nope, I get where you're coming from. 🙂 But, here's how I see it. Buffy and Scoobies (especially Xander) see Spike as a vampire with no soul. And let's face it. He is at this point, which is why I don't think they can sympathize with him when he falls in love with Buffy. Although, Willow did seem to sympathize with him when he wanted to place flowers at Buffy's house after Joyce's death, and he didn't leave a card. But, that was for different reasons I think.

Buffy and the Scoobies also think that if Spike ever got his chip out, he would go back to being evil. As Dawn mentioned in "Crush," Buffy always wondered what Spike would do if he got the chip out. She believed he would try and kill her, since that always seemed to be his mission. Kill the slayer. And there's even evidence of that early in the season. Even though Spike has helped them (s4), he still tried to get the chip out and kill Buffy in "Out of My Mind."

So, I think that's why Buffy is so freaked out when she finds out Spike loves her. How can a vampire with no soul love her, regardless of his previous good deeds. Plus, since Buffy is the leader, the Scoobies will back her up and protect her, as Willow did by revoking Spike's invitation to Buffy's house and Xander giving Spike a hard time. And I think Buffy finds it disgusting because (1) Spike is a vampire with no soul, and (2) He has tried to kill her in the past. At this point, she doesn't see him as capable of love because he doesn't have a soul, and she says that in "Crush" (although, we know he is capable). I think part of her doesn't even want to believe it because it's so insane. Even Spike admits that loving her is wrong in "Crush," but he can't fight his feelings.

Of course, things changed after "Intervention." Buffy recognizes that Spike is capable of doing good and capable of love. 🙂

 

[Icarium]

I just don't get it. I'm currently on I Was Made to Love You at the part where Spike comes in the Magic Box and everyone's like "you need to leave," "stay away from us," "we're not your friends and we're not your way to Buffy." Everyone's SO mean to him.

I am the opposite. I just don't get why so many fans symphatise with Spike. At all. What you call overreaction, I would call a very subdued reaction, considering the logical reaction should have been to stake Spike. He kidnapped Buffy. He betrayed the group in The Yoko Factor. He almost caused Riley's death in Out of My Mind. He obviously isn't harmless even with a chip in his head and nobody has any idea how long the chip might hold. His presence is a ridiculous contrivance that for me makes everyone including Spike (who really should know better than to taunt people who can dust him if they snap) look like total morons. JMO, YMMV and all that, of course.

Also, considering how Spike later tried to rape Buffy it's a bit hard to deny that "stay away from her" was the right position to take.

Why would Buffy feel disgusting that Spike likes her anyway?

Because Spike is a monster?

He honestly didn't mean to hurt her, he cares for her... I just don't get why everyone acts like it's his fault and like he's trying to hurt her.

He kidnapped Buffy. You really think the Scoobs should examine his motives deeply rather than jump to the obvious conclusion?

That is one thing that always ticked me off beyond words. As I watch it more I get aggravated. I say this because yes Spike is not a normal human but everyone in the verse almost everyone has done questionable things and they make it seem like his are beyond words.

Except at that point none of them other than Anya is anywhere near being an unrepentant serial murderer. Spike has spent more than a century murdering for pleasure and still very much wants to continue doing the same. Honestly, would you trust a human serial murderer, let alone a creature like Spike, considered incapable of being anything but evil? If not, why do you blame the Scoobies for doing the same?

Buffy's reaction shows no understanding of how difficult this must be for Spike.

Why should Buffy give a fig about Spike? He isn't a friend, he is a guy who has tried to kill her time and again. If it's difficult for him, that's not Buffy's problem. It's difficult for him not killing anyone too but you wouldn't want Buffy to lose sleep over that, would you?

 

[zobothehobo]

Saying that Spike is dangerous and he would kill her if he had the chance is ridiculous. I get he's capable of hurting her and killing her... but he wouldn't. If that's true, he would have killed her in Fool For Love. Instead, he asked her what was wrong, sat with her, and patted her back to let her know he was there.

 

[white avenger]

It's a whole lot easier to be sympathetic towards Spike in this episode IF we know how his character is going to develop and evolve in the later seasons, and how close he and Buffy will eventually be by Season 7's finale. Seeing him as only the monster that he portrayed from his introduction in Season 2 up until that moment, however, as Buffy and her friends obviously did, it becomes much more understandable.

 

[Icarium]

Saying that Spike is dangerous and he would kill her if he had the chance is ridiculous. I get he's capable of hurting her and killing her... but he wouldn't. If that's true, he would have killed her in Fool For Love.

Even if I agree with that (which I don't), the characters aren't privy to everything the viewers see. For them Spike is very much a monster that shouldn't be trusted.

 

[StarSlayer]

I am the opposite. I just don't get why so many fans symphatise with Spike. At all. What you call overreaction, I would call a very subdued reaction, considering the logical reaction should have been to stake Spike. He kidnapped Buffy. He betrayed the group in The Yoko Factor. He almost caused Riley's death in Out of My Mind. He obviously isn't harmless even with a chip in his head and nobody has any idea how long the chip might hold. His presence is a ridiculous contrivance that for me makes everyone including Spike (who really should know better than to taunt people who can dust him if they snap) look like total morons. JMO, YMMV and all that, of course.

Also, considering how Spike later tried to rape Buffy it's a bit hard to deny that "stay away from her" was the right position to take.

Putting aside the future events in s6, some fans (including me) sympathize with Spike at this point because I think we're beginning to see him change as result of his love for Buffy. No doubt, he was still pretty evil in s4 and early in s5. But then, he began having feelings for Buffy. Was it true genuine feelings, or was it just an exotic dream that sparked an obsession? That was Spike's journey in s5.

For me, I can also still sympathize with Spike even though he had a crazy obsession over Buffy and even chained her up because of who and what Spike is, and his past with women. The best way I can describe it is that it reminds me of "The Phantom of the Opera." Spike never really knew what true love was until he fell in love with Buffy. As such, he didn't know how to express it in a healthy manner. It wasn't until the end of "Intervention" that Spike really understood real love.

 

[Marisa]

Except at that point none of them other than Anya is anywhere near being an unrepentant serial murderer. Spike has spent more than a century murdering for pleasure and still very much wants to continue doing the same. Honestly, would you trust a human serial murderer, let alone a creature like Spike, considered incapable of being anything but evil? If not, why do you blame the Scoobies for doing the same?

I see it differently i guess. It seems like others are off easy than the rest that is what I am saying. I know he was a killer but by this point you can see his character changing. I didn't just see him as a ruthless killer. This is where we will have to agree to disagree.

 

[GrrArghx]

I don't blame them, I reacted the same way 😛

It was all very ishy, lol.

I mean, obviously, I'm not a Spuffy fan, but I do love Spike so I appreciate all the character development he went through from his first appearance to his last, but when I first watched Season 5 I had the exact same reaction 😛

 

[Lindsey McDonald]

People that think the reaction was overboard: answer me this.

A serial murderer and rapist (cause that was heavily implied about Spike, and he had Angelus as a role model) lives in your street. They're currently, say, paralysed, so they can't carry out their fantasies, but they often talk about their "conquests" and repeatedly threaten to kill you and your friends if they ever recover, and make every conscious effort to speed along that recovery. Hell, they've actively attempted it in the past. You know all this. They occasionally stop other criminals through sheer convenience and for the adrenaline rush. But they are entirely unrepentant for their own crimes, and wish with everything they are to start them up again.

They come to you when you're alone, kidnap you and profess their love for you, completely out of the blue. Are you seriously telling me that you'd stop and do a psychological analysis to find out if they've been thinking good thoughts lately? Or would you consult a psychic to see if their future holds a long path to salvation? Weigh up the dozen or so good things they've done in your presence against the hundreds of murders?

Seriously?

I have a feeling you'd act in exactly the same way as Buffy. You'd be repulsed. You'd wonder what you'd done to attract such a monster. You'd be disgusted that someone so evil, someone you've never seen express love as anything other than twisted, violent sexual obsession, loves you. You'd run a mile. And if your friends are worth their salt, they'd rally round and protect you from him. They'd refuse to let him into your house. WHERE YOU LIVE. They'd not let him be a part of your circle of friends.

This is a perfectly healthy reaction. The characters know nothing of Spike's "changes". To be honest though? There's been one change by this point. He decided, in his infinite generosity, not to kill her that one time when he could have. Seriously, that's all the Scoobies have to go on, and Buffy probably didn't even tell them about it.

You can't judge their reaction thinking about where Spike is going. All they know is where he came from, and it's a dark, twisted place, where he hurts the people he says he loves. And their friends. And their families. I think they're perfectly entitled to react the way they did.

 

[zobothehobo]

It's different. 1. Because Spike doesn't brag about his "conquests" like that. 2. At this point, Spike hasn't raped anyone. 3. At this point, it was kind of obvious Spike was changing. He had Buffy unconscious... if he really wanted to kill her, all he had to do was say the word and Dru would have done it. Or worked through the pain and done it himself. But he didn't. He didn't want to hurt her and that was obvious. He saved her by pushing Dru away from her and unchaining her too. He just didn't know how to show her he loved her. He'd never had a true love like that. The closest he had was Dru... who was a bit... off. If I was Buffy, I'd be freaked out that he did that... and a little weirded out that someone who supposedly hated me was now expressing feelings of love and desire... but I wouldn't have acted disgusted with him. I would have felt bad for him. He was in love with someone he couldn't have... and as Buffy, I would know that and I'd feel really bad for him rather than feeling disgusted.

 

[Lindsey McDonald]

It's different. 1. Because Spike doesn't brag about his "conquests" like that.

I'm almost certain there are points when he does. Not in the sadistic way Angelus does, but he constantly reminds the Scoobies that he's evil. Constantly. It's just treated as a joke because he's currently impotent. I'll have a proper look when I have time later.

2. At this point, Spike hasn't raped anyone.

That we know of. Like I said, it's implied. He had Angelus as a role model. Angelus we know enjoyed the whole raping and pillaging thing. And Spike spent a long time trying to gain Angelus' approval.

3. At this point, it was kind of obvious Spike was changing. He had Buffy unconscious... if he really wanted to kill her, all he had to do was say the word and Dru would have done it. Or worked through the pain and done it himself. But he didn't. He didn't want to hurt her and that was obvious. He saved her by pushing Dru away from her and unchaining her too. He just didn't know how to show her he loved her. He'd never had a true love like that. The closest he had was Dru... who was a bit... off. If I was Buffy, I'd be freaked out that he did that... and a little weirded out that someone who supposedly hated me was now expressing feelings of love and desire... but I wouldn't have acted disgusted with him. I would have felt bad for him. He was in love with someone he couldn't have... and as Buffy, I would know that and I'd feel really bad for him rather than feeling disgusted.

You would know that his motives were pure? How? He did a LOT to keep Dru alive (ok, undead) in Season 2, and now all of a sudden he's quite happy to kill her. That's the thing with obsession. It doesn't last. And Spike's shown all the signs of throwing one toy away to replace it with another. Doesn't speak to me of him being capable of feeling love. Not at this point. Seriously, if someone murders for years, kidnaps you, and says they love you, you'd be ok with it because they didn't have you killed? That's a kind of warped view. Buffy doesn't "know" nearly as much as you're claiming. Nor does she have the time to process any of the information and come to a conclusion. All she sees is a monster trying to get her to love him by killing his ex (with full on creepy shrine complete with stolen clothes), and she reacts accordingly.

Edit: Btw, by "warped" I meant warped by knowing more about Spike than the characters did at that point. Not that I think you're a crazy person, lol!

 

[zobothehobo]

I think he loved Dru. I see no indication it's trading one toy in for another. And he wasn't perfectly happy killing her... he didn't do it... remember? I think even if Buffy had said she would care, he may not have. Kind of like a "well, I lied, I won't kill her... But you've got to know I care about you Slayer" kind of deal.

 

[Washburne]

Go Lindsey!

The people we like we always want to see the good in and it's often clouding our eyes. That's only natural and happens to everyone. Me not loving Spike affects me. I don't hate him though. Just so we're clear. Do we want real life feelings from the characters or do we want to invole the fact that it is fiction after all? That we've seen things some of the characters haven't?

I understand the characters feelings towards Spike admitting his feelings but at the same time of course it's much easier to feel for Spike at the same time as we've seen different feeling, actions by him. Convert it to a real life situation and most people wouldn't give a damn about Spike's possible changes. People get scared and act from it.

I'd just repeated a lof of things didn't I? Oh well.

 

[zobothehobo]

The thing is Spike hasn't posed a real threat to them in a long time. And he's even helped them a bunch at the point where his feelings come out. He's well on his way to becoming part of the gang.

 

[Washburne]

The thing is Spike hasn't posed a real threat to them in a long time. And he's even helped them a bunch at the point where his feelings come out. He's well on his way to becoming part of the gang.

And why isn't he a threat? Did he ever help them when he wasn't chipped and it didn't fit into his plans? Fear and resentment takes a long while to change. How long did it take Cordy to get accepted into the group? And she wasn't evil just mean. You'd think that it would take even longer for Spike considering his past don't you think? Helping out doesn't have to mean that you like someone.