Overreacting to Spike's feelings?

[Icarium]

I disagree with the vampires without souls are evil and should not be trusted. Even when Spike was at his evilest he could be trusted in a sense. In the end he helped Buffy in Becoming.

You mean when he shrugged off and left when Angel seemed to be kicking Buffy's ass? Yes, real trustworthy...Spike promised not to get back to Sunnydale - he got back. He sold the Scoobs to Adam. He almost caused Riley's death in Out of My Mind. So that's what, three, maybe even four times where he effectively betrayed Buffy and people still think he could be trusted?!?

I don't think it was out of character for Spike not to be staked. I will use a example back in season 4 with Oz. Riley just saw it that way Black and White and Buffy and the others see a shade of Grey.

Buffy doesn't kill any werewolves if she can help it so Oz is not the lone exception, unlike Spike.

 

[Joan the Vampire Slayer]

No offence but this interpretation seems almost insulting for Buffy. She can't be simply repulsed by a psychopath proclaiming his love for her? No, she must actually be hiding her feelings for him? Can you show me any indication Buffy has romantic feelings for Spike at that point?

Of course Buffy could be simply repulsed by a vampire proclaiming his love for her - but that's not all that was going on there.

I mean no disrespect to Buffy, obviously. And I didn't say she had romantic feelings for Spike. I do think she was attracted to him, though. And that made her feel very guilty and "dirty." As for indication, the sexual tension between the two in FFL is thick enough to cut with a knife. Both actors played it that way and I believe that was what the audience was supposed to gain from it.

Just my interpretation, obviously. Take it or leave it.

 

[Marisa]

You mean when he shrugged off and left when Angel seemed to be kicking Buffy's ass? Yes, real trustworthy...Spike promised not to get back to Sunnydale - he got back. He sold the Scoobs to Adam. He almost caused Riley's death in Out of My Mind. So that's what, three, maybe even four times where he effectively betrayed Buffy and people still think he could be trusted?!?

Buffy getting her ass kicked so you say was not Spike's problem. He got her what she needed. She needed to get in and stop Angelus and she did so he kept his end of the bargain. He was not there to help her fight he wasn't supposed to hold her hand through battle of course he wasn't going to sit side by side and fight with her that was not Spike at this time.
Of course he is going to come back he was a main character, but I will speak from the story. Drusilla left him he did not know where to go he felt betrayed by Buffy in some sense and was coming back for her.
The whole thing with Adam was because he was told he could be the old Spike again. Did you not see where he wanted to just fall on the stake in season 4 he felt he was over. He went through character development just like the rest of the scoobies. This was his development.

Also I know Buffy doesn't kill werewolves I was just using that as a point for my bigger statement Spike in my eyes is a shade of Grey he is not evil and he is not good he can be one or the other at times but for the most part he is both. That is until he got his soul.
Overall I am going to say once again we will have to agree to disagree because this is going to go on for years at this point 😉

 

[Primal Slayer]

She and the Scoobies totally werent overreacting, I had the same reaction when we first found out he was having dreams about her. After someone repeatadly tries to kill you and your friends for over 2 years and just helped you in the first place because they were defenseless and needed the money but still betraying you, I think you would be surprised aswell.

There was nothing sweet about Spikes feelings for Buffy by Season5. He tried to kill her, stalked her, and manipulate her.

 

[fly on the wall]

Just wanted to say that the desire to view vampires as black-and-white comes from Buffy, not necessarily bad writing. It's easy, and in fact vital, for her to see vampires = bad. That's her terrain, slaying vampires, and she could justify Angel because he had a soul...but imagine what would happen if she based her slaying on which demons deserved it most? We clearly see that there are "good" demons..and if not "good," at least not outright evil. (Clem, anyone?) No more evil than Warren, or Caleb, or dark Willow, or any other human Buffy refuses to kill. It's arguable, actually, that some of the human beings we see on the show are more evil than any demon, especially since they DO have souls that don't seem to make a difference.

That's the thing, though. Buffy CAN'T do her job while acting as a judge of morality. It makes things too complicated, it gives her too much room to make mistakes. What if she kills demons who didn't deserve it? What if she doesn't kill a demon who does, and he in turn kills innocent people? In doing this, she would be very similar to what she tries so hard NOT to be. A human killer. I think as the series goes on, we the viewers understand that, when you get right down to it, there ISN'T a whole lot of difference between demons and humans. Sure, most of them suck, but they can make amends, they can change (Angel, Spike, Anya..). And, after all, all the demons on earth are part-human, anyway.

This is complicated, and Buffy chooses not to acknowledge it for the most part. Sure, she's been known to let a demon go because they were "harmless," and she refuses to kill Spike. I think deep down Buffy knows her job is more complicated than "kill demons, let humans live"...she certainly doesn't want to kill something that's more or less harmless.

But back to the topic...do they overreact about Spike's feelings? I do think that most of the time they put a LOT of stock on how Spike is feeling, even when it doesn't make much sense to (because he's a soulless, evil creature)...but here, I don't think so. Spike is impulsive, his feelings rule his life and by this point the Scoobies know this. They saw what he was capable of when he and Dru first broke up, and I think they were afraid of what he would do for unrequited Buffy love. The chip doesn't ACTUALLY "stop" him from doing anything. He could do what he wanted to Buffy and suffer through the pain later if it got to that point.

 

[dan k]

The chip doesn't ACTUALLY "stop" him from doing anything. He could do what he wanted to Buffy and suffer through the pain later if it got to that point.

The pain he gets is unbearable on some occasions so i'd argue it did stop him from doing anything. Sure he could get the odd punch in but after that he usually collapsed in agony, which is what happens after he hit those muggers Buffy fought.

 

[fly on the wall]

The pain he gets is unbearable on some occasions so i'd argue it did stop him from doing anything. Sure he could get the odd punch in but after that he usually collapsed in agony, which is what happens after he hit those muggers Buffy fought.

Right, but sometimes he gets angry enough to strike someone without thinking of the pain first, yes? This happens a lot. So who's to say that in the moment he wouldn't kill her, and deal with the pain later?

 

[dan k]

Right, but sometimes he gets angry enough to strike someone without thinking of the pain first, yes? This happens a lot. So who's to say that in the moment he wouldn't kill her, and deal with the pain later?

As soon as Spike hits someone he feels the pain, well that's what i read of the situation anyway. Thus he could hurt someone but it would be too painful for him to bite someone for a considerable amount of time.

I suppose he could use a gun, stab her with something but in terms of biting i didn't think he could fight through the pain for a sufficient amount of time.

 

[Kana]

Ok I'll have another stab at this seen as my last effort was unduly erased.

A lot of people mention the fact that humans can be evil with souls and demons can indeed be benevolent without human souls. So as we don’t get bogged down on the nature of various demons let us focus on soulless vampires.

Now as I’ve always said, it’s naà¯ve to think that vampires don’t take on any of the predatory characteristics of their species, and it’s self evident. We see reasonable humans turned into vampires and they become killers, without remorse.

If we look at Gunn as his gang, it becomes understandable why they adopt their ‘stake first and ask questions later’ attitude due to being pushed to defend themselves.

Even Spike himself, despite his humanity, killed without remorse…

So how to treat him???

Well remember at this point his behaviour is ambiguous at best. Yes we know that he can feel love and compassion but the question though is: is he evil? Saying he’s not as evil as say Angelus is not the same as saying he’s ok, or for the most part morally upstanding. Up until Intervention, his behaviour could be construed as self serving, to which perhaps we’d attribute the Cordy’s label of ‘Sick Obsessed Vampire‘. In other words he could commit to actions ‘good’ or ‘evil’ depending on what his agenda is. Because the balance sheet isn’t in his favour, how can we assume that his actions are all noble?

I supposed I would ask: Is he really changing?

Angel’s view on this was very strict. Moral change is not about momentary reactions or adaptation, it’s about an internal decision to be a better person. As long as Spike’s using Buffy as a moral compass, we cannot tell if he’s really improving or simply improvising.

The events of Crush we really to his detriment. Now here is where I have no sympathy for him soul or soulless? I mean really? Aww diddums, Spike treats Dru, Harmony and Buffy as objects, blames them for his feelings and expects Buffy to admit her love for him based upon an ultimatum that threatens her life. She says no and all he hears is yes. Anything short of a ‘f*** off blondie bear’ was probably too ambiguous for him. I mean please “I’m flattered you like me?” No siree. That’s not how you deal with stalkers, soulled or soulless.

Going back to the whole question about how to judge soulless vampires, I’ve always seen Buffy and the Scoobies morality as rather intuitive as opposed to holding some sort of categorical imperative. This certainly fits with Spike. As soon as he started acting like a man, Buffy started treating him like one.

“I know I’m a monster, but you treat me like a man”. We’re not saying at this point that he’s totally reformed, or even unequivocally noble, but we can relate more to acts like we see in Invention (protecting Dawn not the Buffybot thing) and also showing compassion towards Joyce.

Although I remain by my stance of not judging soulless vampires in the same manner we would a human, I still allow myself to identify and relate to common emotions and insecurities. Most of us are able to love and be hurt by love, however we don’t have a past of relishing the death and destruction of human life, totally without remorse. We allow ourselves to feel the similarities but the clarity of thought recognises the differences.

 

[Icarium]

A lot of people mention the fact that humans can be evil with souls and demons can indeed be benevolent without human souls.

Hardly a fact if you count vampires as demons.

Yes we know that he can feel love and compassion

We do? And even if we do, the Scoobies don't.

That's the thing, though. Buffy CAN'T do her job while acting as a judge of morality.

Sure she can. Regardless if demons are always evil or not, when they try to harm people there is no option other than killing them for removing the threat. It's not as if she can send them to jail or anything. This is the way human who use supernatural means are often treated - Gwendolyn Post, Faith, the zookeeper from The Pack, etc. The problem is, the show never bothers to deal with the repercussions of "demons can be good". No character ever asks themselves "Hmm, why are we so reluctant to kill even the vilest of humans and so quick to execute demons?". The writers just want to have it both ways - lots of demons to be killed off without anyone caring and yet still have Sike and Clem in the show. It doesn't freaking work. If you want to call the early seasons' black and white division - demons bad, humans (at least potentially) good simplistic, fair enough but the show never made the step towards "demons good" convincing. YMMV.

 

[Kana]

Hardly a fact if you count vampires as demons.

Not sure what you mean here but I was talking about demons in general and specifying that I wanted to concentrate on vampires.

We do? And even if we do, the Scoobies don't.

Well the Scoobies know he was in love with Drusilla. Buffy threatened Dru in Lie To Me and Spike backs off. He demonstrates something that looks like compassion at the end of FFL. Perhaps I should have said, "Just love" rather than "Love and compassion" because we were still questioning the compassion part at this point. The complication is that love and compassion aren't a million miles away. However we can for most part seperate selfish, obsession from real true kindness.

 

[Joan the Vampire Slayer]

Firstly, nice post. It's always interesting to hear your thoughts. 🙂

It's arguable, actually, that some of the human beings we see on the show are more evil than any demon, especially since they DO have souls that don't seem to make a difference.

Yes, exactly - like Warren. He was such a great villian because he was human.

That's the thing, though. Buffy CAN'T do her job while acting as a judge of morality. It makes things too complicated, it gives her too much room to make mistakes. What if she kills demons who didn't deserve it? What if she doesn't kill a demon who does, and he in turn kills innocent people? In doing this, she would be very similar to what she tries so hard NOT to be. A human killer. I think as the series goes on, we the viewers understand that, when you get right down to it, there ISN'T a whole lot of difference between demons and humans. Sure, most of them suck, but they can make amends, they can change (Angel, Spike, Anya..). And, after all, all the demons on earth are part-human, anyway.

Nice points. This is why she didn't kill Spike when he was chipped. Because who says its her place to make decisions about what demons deserve it and what ones don't?

But back to the topic...do they overreact about Spike's feelings? I do think that most of the time they put a LOT of stock on how Spike is feeling, even when it doesn't make much sense to (because he's a soulless, evil creature)...but here, I don't think so. Spike is impulsive, his feelings rule his life and by this point the Scoobies know this. They saw what he was capable of when he and Dru first broke up, and I think they were afraid of what he would do for unrequited Buffy love. The chip doesn't ACTUALLY "stop" him from doing anything. He could do what he wanted to Buffy and suffer through the pain later if it got to that point.

*nods* Yep. He could have killed Buffy - it just would have hurt for a long, long time afterwards.

 

[fly on the wall]

Well the Scoobies know he was in love with Drusilla.

Yes, but do you think they actually viewed it as "love"? Perhaps they did as much as a vampire could love, but I don't think they compared it at all to the love between creatures with souls. You gotta admit, Spike and Dru were a dark, twisted couple and I can completely understand if their "love" was discredited by Buffy and co. It definitely wasn't the kind of love Buffy wanted, at any rate.

Yes, exactly - like Warren. He was such a great villian because he was human.

I've always thought Warren was one of the most terrifying villains for that very reason. He was real. Warrens actually without-a-doubt exist in our world and that's scary.

 

[Willow My Love]

See, I've been on the Buffy side of this. This kid in high school was seriously obsessed with me. Everything I did, said, wore. He'd find out what music I was listening to and immediately change what he liked. He found out where I lived, (I wasn't in the school directory for family reasons, nor the phonebook) and did what Spike did, stood outside for hours.

And I had no feelings for him whatsoever.

It was creepy and made my skin crawl. When he'd talk to me it made me feel like I needed a shower. Just the things he probably thought of... Ugh.

He didn't stop until a friend of mine seriously threatened to kill him. Then another friend punched him in the face at a concert we went to. (I went with a different group. He went with a friend of mine that was almost as obsessed with me.)

It bothered me, and it bothered my friends, and no one wanted him around. I can see the one who threatened him saying the whole we're not you path to her thing.

Thing is, I was involved with someone and incredibly happy and he knew that, but that person made little difference to him. He'd talk to my person about me, to try to find out things he could to to make me want him instead of my current interest.

Just thinking about it, I feel like I should wash my hands...

 

[BananaBuffy]

I'm going to keep this simple. Yes, it was definitely an overreaction but still, I can see why it happened. It kind of disgusted her and we're all prone to acting forcefully without even realizing what's even happening. She shouldn't have said some of the things she said. What really gets me was in 'Fool for Love'. I know she didn't know that he was in love with her yet but she shouldn't have said what she said to him. "You're beneath me". That had to hurt, especially after Cecily. Poor Spike.

 

[Willow My Love]

Well, y'know, with the whole he was on a rampage to kill her thing, that may be another reason. She obviously hated him for that. And then she finds he has all these fuzzy feelings for her, when she has all these angry, hate feelings towards him. I can understand.

Plus what I said earlier.

 

[Litheran]

I skipped the last page or so; just thought I'd throw this out there.

I'm 100% Spuffy; and Buffy's reaction was completely legitimate. Some of the elements in the show require our imaginations; vampires, witches, werewolves. But in no way imaginable could Buffy get a love declaration from a mass murderer and not expect the worst.

Remember they didn't see what we saw; so all they know is what they can see and hear. I wouldn't want Spike to just be welcomed into the group and have Buffy give him clearance to worship her from afar. If she had there would have been no reason for Intervention. And the last three and a half minutes of that one are some of the best ever put on celluloid. I always liked the fact that for most of the time; Spike is an island in and of himself. Only in the final season do we see him in a true symbiotic relationship.

P.S. I personally think the real reason they all got so upset is cause they knew if Buffy got her hands on him; they'd never get a turn.

 

[Joan the Vampire Slayer]

I'm currently doing a re-watch of season 5 and the same thing is getting me that's gotten me the other 3 times I've watched it. Why does everyone react so strongly to Spike's feelings? I mean, I get the whole tying her up thing was bad... But I don't think he would have done that if she hadn't reacted so strongly.

Buffy's reaction to Spike's declaration of love was completely exaggerated, I agree. She was harsh and clearly offended.

If she had maybe been like "Well, I'm flattered that you like me... but I don't like you and have absolutely no interest in you" rather than yelling at him, telling him he doesn't actually feel that way, and saying she feels disgusting... maybe he wouldn't have tied her up. And in Crush when she tells Giles she feels disgusting and he says "No. You are not responsible for what Spike feels," it almost resembles a rape victim saying they feel dirty and disgusting and someone telling them they're not responsible for what happened... it's not quite like that because it's less serious... but it's the same idea.

Great point. It never made any sense to me why Buffy was so offended by Spike. it's not like he was insulting her by saying he loved her, yet that's how she saw it. I think it's important to think about why Buffy reacted like that.

Why would Buffy feel disgusting that Spike likes her anyway?

Why? Because Buffy at this point thinks of Spike as sub-human, not worthy of her love. He's a "monster" so him loving her makes her feel dirty. She takes it personally.

I just don't get why everyone acts like it's his fault and like he's trying to hurt her.

The only answer have to this their reactions (though exaggerated) makes for interesting and dramatic television. If they had all been sympathetic, it would have been out of character.

---------- Post added at 11:26 AM ---------- Previous post was at 11:19 AM ----------

Why should Buffy give a fig about Spike? He isn't a friend, he is a guy who has tried to kill her time and again. If it's difficult for him, that's not Buffy's problem. It's difficult for him not killing anyone too but you wouldn't want Buffy to lose sleep over that, would you?

You might be surprised to hear me say this, but I agree. At this point, there's no reason why Buffy should sympathize with Spike. He tried to kill her friends, kidnapped her, and then put the nail in the coffin by insulting her as she saw it by telling her he loved her.

It isn't until "Intervention" that Spike proves his motives are more honorable then just impressing her. He risks his life to protect Dawn.

 

[brinkster130]

I don't think Buffy or the scoobies reaction in this season was over exaggerated or unjust...it was just as I would expect it to be. That being said I do think that the Scoobies were to hard on Spike in season 7. Spike had a soul then and Buffy had completely forgiven him for what had happened in the past and they were still mean to him every chance they got. Spike was the one who stood by her side, even when the scoobies bailed on her and kicked her out of her own home.

 

[xfivebyfive]

I think Buffy slightly overreacted. But not all that much. I mean at first I think she overreacted because she saw Spike as this monster and also because I think she'd started to have feelings for him at least subconciously. Because in season 5 she started to really trust him and talk to him like a person. So then to find out he liked her made it real and she freaked out. Thats at least how I saw it.