Overreacting to Spike's feelings?

[sosa lola]

I don't think Buffy or the scoobies reaction in this season was over exaggerated or unjust...it was just as I would expect it to be. That being said I do think that the Scoobies were to hard on Spike in season 7. Spike had a soul then and Buffy had completely forgiven him for what had happened in the past and they were still mean to him every chance they got. Spike was the one who stood by her side, even when the scoobies bailed on her and kicked her out of her own home.

When were the Scoobies hard on Spike in S7? Other than the first six episodes in which Xander and Dawn were more upset about the attempted rape thing and they were justified. I don't recall them being mean to him.

 

[Litheran]

...Warrens actually without-a-doubt exist in our world and that's scary.

You know someone who can build a Buffy-bot?

😎

 

[Chosen Enemy]

The only thing I understand Buffy POV on this, is the fact that up until now Spike was an evil vampire who wanted to kill her and her friends. And that cannot be erased just like that just because he says words such as "I love you". For all she knew, he could have pulled another evil plan against her. I don't think Buffy saw, or could open her eyes wide enough to see all the good things that Spike has done to prove her his love (even if they were for selfish reasons, she was blind, or just really dumb). She opened her eyes only when the words poped out right in front of her, by Dawn. Words are sometimes just words. And if she doesn't see the actions, the words can mean many things, not just the truth, and not just the lies. In Spike's case, as a mortal enemy, they could only mean lies (from Buffy's POV). Then when Spike proved his love for her, his real and unselfish love by not telling Glory about Dawn, Buffy could finally open her eyes and connect between the words and action.

 

[brinkster130]

When were the Scoobies hard on Spike in S7? Other than the first six episodes in which Xander and Dawn were more upset about the attempted rape thing and they were justified. I don't recall them being mean to him.

Every chance they got they were making snarky comments about him. And Giles and Principle Wood trying to kill him.

I thought that after Buffy died and Spike stuck around to help the scoobies and Dawn should have shown them that Spike wasn't 100% evil and that he could do good and help out.

 

[Litheran]

...Words are sometimes just words. And if she doesn't see the actions, the words can mean many things, not just the truth, and not just the lies. In Spike's case, as a mortal enemy, they could only mean lies (from Buffy's POV). Then when Spike proved his love for her, his real and unselfish love by not telling Glory about Dawn, Buffy could finally open her eyes and connect between the words and action.

Epic Truth!

Like I said earlier; this episode leads exquisitely into "Intervention." That episode shows with perfect clarity that Spike "...can love quite well; if not wisely."

I think I've mentioned that I didn't warm up to Bangel at all really until season three. Because to me at least; Buffy and Angel's relationship would have gone down even worse if he hadn't gone evil. I know that sounds ridiculous; but look where they were headed. She was a little over a year away from graduating at that point.

Try and picture Angel hanging out in season four, I'll give you a second........pretty weird huh, oh look, Buffy's going to night classes so Angel can walk her home. Hey; Buffy moved into an apartment off campus with Angel. Their train wreck of a relationship after season two gave them that doomed love aspect for some fans. So in the long run it was better for their chances overall to be "torn apart" then for the inevitable period where they grow apart. So that maybe one day their ships can pass again in the night.

Right before said ship gets sunk by Spike's stolen nazi sub-marine...J/K...😀...Mostly

Same deal with Spike; if Buffy hadn't fought his feelings every step of the way. It wouldn't have been as sweet when she finally saw the good man he could be.

To tell you the truth; my appreciation of Angel is pretty much on par with my love for Spike. Because truthfully I feel like there two sides of my very weird coin. It's just that when I'm alone on the night shift and I pass by the mirror in the office; I don't stop to practice my brooding or my forehead scrunching; I give that smug bastard staring back at me a little lip curl and a hip thrust.

 

[sosa lola]

Every chance they got they were making snarky comments about him. And Giles and Principle Wood trying to kill him.

The only snarky comments I remember were from Anya, who was snarky to everyone. Xander and Dawn in the beginning of the season were still upset about the attempted rape and were justified to be -they love Buffy so much. But later, they didn't talk about Spike at all. Actually, when Anya urged Xander to say something about killing Spike since he hated him so much, Xander ignored her "“which shows how much his attitude towards Spike changed.

Giles and Wood don't count. Giles was upset about Buffy removing the chip because Spike was still under the First's thrall. Wood wanted to avenge his mother, his feelings were very understandable, and Spike didn't come off looking good in that episode either. All that garbage about Wood's mother choosing slaying over him? I get that Spike was angry because Wood just tried to kill him, but he should have been more sympathetic, he killed the guy's mother.

 

[zobothehobo]

Giles and Wood don't count. Giles was upset about Buffy removing the chip because Spike was still under the First's thrall.

Don't delude yourself. Giles wasn't upset about Buffy removing the chip because Spike was still under the First's thrall... he was upset Buffy did something big without talking to him and on top of that she made a choice that he wouldn't have made. And then she argued with him about it. The watcher/slayer dynamic up to that point was "the watcher tells the slayer what to do and the slayer does it." Buffy changed it to "slayer decides what to do and watcher watches and researches educating slayer so she can make the best decision of what to do." Giles naturally didn't like that. He was trying to take back control by killing Spike. That's what he was doing in season 8 too. That's all he's been doing since season 5 when Buffy took the control away from him when she told him she wouldn't kill Dawn to save the world. Some could argue even before that back in season 4 when she didn't tell him about Riley and the initiative.

 

[xfivebyfive]

Don't delude yourself. Giles wasn't upset about Buffy removing the chip because Spike was still under the First's thrall... he was upset Buffy did something big without talking to him and on top of that she made a choice that he wouldn't have made. And then she argued with him about it. The watcher/slayer dynamic up to that point was "the watcher tells the slayer what to do and the slayer does it." Buffy changed it to "slayer decides what to do and watcher watches and researches educating slayer so she can make the best decision of what to do." Giles naturally didn't like that. He was trying to take back control by killing Spike. That's what he was doing in season 8 too. That's all he's been doing since season 5 when Buffy took the control away from him when she told him she wouldn't kill Dawn to save the world. Some could argue even before that back in season 4 when she didn't tell him about Riley and the initiative.

I don't agree with that. Their relationship changed over the years yes. And it was hard for Giles to find where he fit once Buffy didn't need him to tell her what to do. It's just like when your daughter grows up and doesn't need you to hold her hand anymore. Giles wasn't trying to take control back. He made wrong choices, even adults do that. He saw Spike as a monster. Who can blame him? I love Spike and I don't like Giles choice. But it had nothing to do with trying to take control back.

Giles does things for the greater good. Which is an issue on all its own that I don't agree with. He puts the world first, and individuals second. He saw Buffy putting Spike ahead of the safety of everyone else. So he tried to do what he knew she couldn't do. Was it wrong? Yes. But he wasn't trying to get control back.

 

[sosa lola]

Don't delude yourself. Giles wasn't upset about Buffy removing the chip because Spike was still under the First's thrall... he was upset Buffy did something big without talking to him and on top of that she made a choice that he wouldn't have made. And then she argued with him about it. The watcher/slayer dynamic up to that point was "the watcher tells the slayer what to do and the slayer does it." Buffy changed it to "slayer decides what to do and watcher watches and researches educating slayer so she can make the best decision of what to do." Giles naturally didn't like that. He was trying to take back control by killing Spike. That's what he was doing in season 8 too. That's all he's been doing since season 5 when Buffy took the control away from him when she told him she wouldn't kill Dawn to save the world. Some could argue even before that back in season 4 when she didn't tell him about Riley and the initiative.

I disagree. I don't think Giles had control issues. Buffy had always came up with the plans, and even when Giles didn't agree with some of them he went along with it. Remember The Gift? Buffy vowed to kill whoever kills Dawn, and Giles only thought about killing Dawn for the world to go on, and Giles chose another option, one Buffy couldn't do, killing Ben.

I do think that Giles feels useless because Buffy grew up, and it's something parents' feel all the time when a child leaves the nest. It's natural. With Spike it's quite different, Giles felt that Buffy was blind when it came to Spike, and he had a point, whenever he suggested doing something for the safety of everybody, like keeping him chained until he found a way to remove, stop the trigger, the second Spike said "Owie", Buffy freed him. She wouldn't listen to reason. What Giles did was wrong, but it was very understandable. He thought of the safety of others, not because he had petty feelings toward Spike. If he did, he'd have killed him before.

 

[zobothehobo]

I disagree. I don't think Giles had control issues. Buffy had always came up with the plans, and even when Giles didn't agree with some of them he went along with it. Remember The Gift? Buffy vowed to kill whoever kills Dawn, and Giles only thought about killing Dawn for the world to go on, and Giles chose another option, one Buffy couldn't do, killing Ben.

I mentioned this in my previous post as the moment he completely lost control.

I do think that Giles feels useless because Buffy grew up, and it's something parents' feel all the time when a child leaves the nest. It's natural. With Spike it's quite different, Giles felt that Buffy was blind when it came to Spike, and he had a point, whenever he suggested doing something for the safety of everybody, like keeping him chained until he found a way to remove, stop the trigger, the second Spike said "Owie", Buffy freed him. She wouldn't listen to reason. What Giles did was wrong, but it was very understandable. He thought of the safety of others, not because he had petty feelings toward Spike. If he did, he'd have killed him before.

He thought it was for the safety of others. I know. But he doesn't get to decide that. Buffy does. That's my whole point. He got frustrated and annoyed that he no longer got to decide what was for the safety of others and in the world's best interest. Buffy showed him she could do that all on her own and his input was not the ultimate right thing to do in The Gift and he stood by and watched as all his power got stripped away. This was him saying "no, I want that power back." I get it, but it was wrong and I don't forgive it.

 

[Kana]

I mentioned this in my previous post as the moment he completely lost control.


He thought it was for the safety of others. I know. But he doesn't get to decide that. Buffy does. That's my whole point. He got frustrated and annoyed that he no longer got to decide what was for the safety of others and in the world's best interest. Buffy showed him she could do that all on her own and his input was not the ultimate right thing to do in The Gift and he stood by and watched as all his power got stripped away. This was him saying "no, I want that power back." I get it, but it was wrong and I don't forgive it.

Thing is, i don't see as Giles being pissed because he lost that power. I totally agree that it doesn't make sense for Giles to say "Buffy, take the lead...no wait, don't do that", but he do believe he was thinking about group rather than his own ego. His issue with Buffy was one of mistrust and he wasn't the only one. He didn't trust that she was thinking clearly because of her feelings for Spike. The funny thing is, if Giles actually said, "You know what I'm going to take charge now" or discussed with the the group minus the Potentials, I wouldn't actually have an issue with it. It's the fact of telling someone to lead without letting them actually do so, but I totally disagree that it has anything to do with Giles need for power or his ego.

 

[Icarium]

Don't delude yourself. Giles wasn't upset about Buffy removing the chip because Spike was still under the First's thrall... he was upset Buffy did something big without talking to him and on top of that she made a choice that he wouldn't have made. And then she argued with him about it. The watcher/slayer dynamic up to that point was "the watcher tells the slayer what to do and the slayer does it." Buffy changed it to "slayer decides what to do and watcher watches and researches educating slayer so she can make the best decision of what to do." Giles naturally didn't like that. He was trying to take back control by killing Spike. That's what he was doing in season 8 too. That's all he's been doing since season 5 when Buffy took the control away from him when she told him she wouldn't kill Dawn to save the world. Some could argue even before that back in season 4 when she didn't tell him about Riley and the initiative.

Yes, that was totally it. Nothing to do with the fact that the trigger was real and Buffy and Spike were hiding their heads in the sand. Or the fact that the trigger put everyone in danger, not just Buffy the Vampire Layer and her pet woobie. How dares Giles do something to save lives. That bastard!

Let's also ignore the fact that if it wasn't for Wood's actions the trigger would have remained active. But hey, Buffy knew what she was doing right? It's not as if Spike had recently slaughtered people and claimed the trigger made him do it, right? Oh, wait..

He got frustrated and annoyed that he no longer got to decide what was for the safety of others and in the world's best interest. Buffy showed him she could do that all on her own and his input was not the ultimate right thing to do in The Gift and he stood by and watched as all his power got stripped away.

Yes, The Gift...the episode where Buffy incredibly irresponsibly leaves Ben for Giles to deal with. Real proof that Buffy's decision making is better than Giles. Not.

The watcher/slayer dynamic up to that point was "the watcher tells the slayer what to do and the slayer does it." Buffy changed it to "slayer decides what to do and watcher watches and researches educating slayer so she can make the best decision of what to do." Giles naturally didn't like that.

Buffy is in charge pretty much from episode one. Giles rarely has a problem with that, unless Buffy's actions threaten the safety of everyone around her. Which is perfectly normal and shows he cares. It's much better to have people who question your decisions than yes-men, who would let you do the silliest things just because they dare not disagree with you.

 

[Skytteflickan88]

I haven't read the whole thread, I'll just respond to the first post:

Spike is a murderer. He has no soul. He tortures and kills for fun, and possibly rapes as well.

If a person like that says "I love you" me, my friend, sister or slayer, I would be very freaked out. I get that the scoobies think of him as the non-friendly-but-kind-of harmless neighbourhood-vampire season 5, but I think his love/obsession for Buffy reminded them of what he's capable off. Wherter they believed he loved her or not, if they hadn't reacted strongly to a murderer having a thing for Buffy, they'd be very bad friends, and possibly brain-dead.

It's easy for us fans to see this from the outside and think it's not a big deal, but think about it; What if a murderer liked your friend? Would you not freak out?

 

[kadrikaur]

Well, depends on how hot the murderer is. Just kidding. Kindof.

I understand people not willing to hug and comfort Spike, since he has been on a killing-spree for the last hundred-and-something years, but we all know that Spike is the one vampire that can love (Dru ring a bell?). It's just probably that the Scoobies don't perhaps know what to think of it all and Buffy has a bad history with boys/vamp-boys and Spike. I actually feel sorry for both Spike and Buffy, Spike 'cause he loves her but she doesn't love him and for Buffy 'cause she doesn't need things to get any more complicated and Spike in love with her is complicated with a capital C and capital O and capital M and... I think you get the picture.

 

[A Flawed Fashion]

Spike is a vampire without a soul. They kill vampires without souls. Its very hard for any one of them to picture dating a souless demon that they are trained to kill. He's chipped and thus not a threat and has tried to help them, but he is not one of them. No matter what he was doing or how he was acting, no one could be sure they could trust him not to turn on them and not to do something wrong.

I think people sometimes lose track what not having a soul really means. I think the show even changes what that means depending on what they need from the plot (just like the amount of sun a vampire can stand changes constantly). Even if he is changing his ways and even if he tries to be good, he is not human and cannot feel everything a human can.

If you were trained to kill vampires like Spike, it would not be easy to think about having one of them say they love you. You kill them. You do not think of creatures without souls like that, so their reactions are completely understandable to me. He isn't just like a normal man you hate because killing a human isn't normal and isn't something you do lightly. Killing vampires is a daily occurance for them and brings them no moral issues. With most vampires, Buffy never even bothers to know their names before killing them. They are demons who murder, kill, and terrorize so you stop them before they ever get the chance. You would never preemptively kill a human. Vampires are so evil that you know you need to kill them or else someone WILL die. Thinking about one of these demons loving you, is very hard to grasp.

Buffy kills souless vampires daily with no remorse and no second thought. Spike is one of them and he says he loves her. That is hugely weird to think about for her.