Palestine and Israel

Name the Stars

Name the Stars

You can't see the stars, love. That's the ceiling.
Joined
Apr 15, 2019
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Spain
Black Thorn
Hi! As a Jewish individual myself, who's family survived the Holocaust, I find what is going on in Israel very disturbing. It is utter rubbish that after being mistreated and persecuted ourselves, we have the right to mistreat and persecute others. Palestine and it's people need to be liberated/freed from the Israeli government, in my opinion. People should not be killed for their race/religion, you would think we would know that by now.
Also, I think people should know that it is not anti-semitic to criticize Israel. Israel is a country, with a government that commits atrocities. Jewish people are not Israel, and Israel is not Jewish people. Also, most Jews in my country do not support Israel currently, and I think it's the same in America. I feel like Israel is something that is kind of thrust upon us, given because people (mainly Christians) felt bad about the Holocaust. But Israel was never their land to give in the first place, because people, with their own government etc, already lived there.
A certain kind of white supremacy exists in Israel, which disturbs me. It is also disturbing how many countries support the apartheid in Israel, especially America. Donald Trump has been opnely dismissive of Jews who do not support it, calling us "disloyal", and such.
What do you guys think of the Israel Palestine situation?
 
Long story short, I see bad guys on both sides. My memory is vague on it, but I do recall reading of peacemakers on both sides, Israeli and Palestinian, who were essentially ruined or murdered by their own side (as well as the other). The whole situation is sad, and as a rule of thumb I dislike the leaders on both sides and feel sorry for the civilians on both sides.

I think Israel was originally made as part of a Cold War strategy (and considered even more useful now in the so-called "War on Terror"), and also perhaps hoping some Jews would leave their own nation. (And remember, during the Holocaust many Jews did try to escape Nazi Germany, and were turned away by every nation, including the United States, and it wasn't the only encouragement to the Nazis to continue what they were doing. Well now the Jews would have some place else to go other than to other nations. Though if I were Jewish back then I'd be scared it was a plot to get us in one place and then nuke us.)

Though I think Israel has some bad people and policies in it, I think some people just have a kneejerk reaction to it based on partisan politics which creates so many pseudo-sentiments. Since Republicans are typically pro-Israel, many Democrats who react more than actually think are automatically opposed to Israel based on that reason alone, reaching for any excuse to make it seem more rational than it is. Hell, it's probably related for the same reason so many people "cared" about Gitmo and the War in Iraq until Obama became POTUS and then like 90% of them no longer cared (at least not enough to show up at the rallies opposing these things). Most Democrats are going to oppose Israel as long as Republicans support it, but when Republicans turn against it, or a Democrat POTUS supports Israel, many Democrats will play a different tune.

Though whether their opposition is based on moral or partisan grounds doesn't make them antisemitic.

It does make them a bit stupid, especially if they declare me of the "other party" simply because I don't share their kneejerk response (like the gay man who called me a Republican for pointing out that Israel has a better track record with LGBT rights than Palestine).

That said, I don't give a damn what Trump says. He'll probably contradict himself next week anyway. If it were McCain or even W. Bush then I would at least hear him out, though I never bought into "you must support what Israel does or you hate all Jews" anymore than I bought it "you must support racial segregation or you hate all Whites or afflicted with 'white guilt'."



I'm not saying this is true of you personally, just that it's true of a lot of people. In fact, given your own background I can see why it bothers you so much (though others of your background with a more tribal way of thinking that dehumanizes those outside the tribe can see it as "better them than us" and believe it will be one or the other who suffers). I oppose a lot of the War on Terror (be it by Bush or Obama) because a lot of it was essentially terrorism (at least it would be seen as such if the very same thing was done to us, targeting civilians). If it's wrong of them to do it to us then it's wrong of us to do it to them, both morally, and because it just begs for retaliation (some would call it karma, not to be confused with justice--and one side wearing black hats doesn't mean the other side is automatically wearing white hats, metaphorically speaking) in one form or another (that is a lot of the War on Terror has actually helped terrorist leaders in recruitment). This doesn't mean I oppose everything done in its name.

I try to focus more on the good humanity displays rather than the evil, but if it bleeds, it leads.
 
Name the Stars said:
Long story short, I see bad guys on both sides.
Click to expand...

And this is what makes just about any issue such as this so sadly tragic. We're all so convinced that we are right that we never even take the time to consider that there might be either a middle ground or a totally different solution that both sides can agree on and support.
 
So we are, as always, one bad bottle of tequila away from all-out war in West Asia
- President Bartlet (West Wing)
 
I think of Israel as an abused child that grew up to become an abuser, right down to tattooing prisoner numbers on Palestinian prisoners in the same font used on Jews in the German death camps. I am not anti-Semitic - most of my friends in university were Jewish and I attended the wedding of one of them and the groom was best man at my wedding a year later. I am not surprised to see people unhappy with any criticism of Israel - from 1919 to 1923 the USA had anti-sedition laws making it illegal to criticize any aspect of the American government and the penalty was a long prison sentence. Free speech is under attack everywhere and it has been lost in Canada.

I believe the two-nation solution is the only answer but Israel has set up new settlements in order to control the water supply in what is now a desert nation and the hawkish element in both Israel and Palestine will not want peace. The Balfour Declaration created the modern nation of Israel when one of the Rothschild clan got the British to give up control of the area of Palestine they had annexed into the British Empire. The six-pointed star is not anything Israeli - it was the Rothschild family crest only changed from red on a black background (the family name translates as red shield or red sign) to light blue on a white background. The original settlers wanted the menorah (the Jewish candelabra) but Rothschild insisted on the Israeli flag containing his family crest. Although it is called the Star of David, King David would have seen it - but in the enemy camp of the Ammonites as the symbol of Molech, the god of involuntary sacrifice. (It sounds similar to Moloch from "I Robot, You jane".)

I was surprised when the person who revealed in 1985 that Israel had a nuclear program was jailed. Didn't everyone know that by then? I found out the details in 1979 from an Israeli colleague and I am sure this was no secret by then to any covert agency. I was in the military-industrial complex with clearances but I am sure it was not necessary to be one of the "in" crowd to find this out. The guy who was jailed was sentenced to 18 years and when his time was up, he was not released from prison. My colleague said there was a nuclear weapon manufacturing facility in the Negev desert and apparently that was supposed to be a secret.

Regardless of whether various American political factions are more or less in favour of Israel, Israel has been no friend of the USA. The US sold them 80 F-16 fighters and they promptly cloned them and called their "creation" the Lavi. Then they sold the Lavi to China, so whereas the Chinese only had their own design of fighters using 1950's aerodynamics, now they have a modern air superiority fighter designed by General Dynamics. If there is a war over Taiwan, the USAF may end up meeting a very familiar aircraft in the South China Sea.
 
I think the abused child who grew into the abuser analogy is a good one. I understand why Israel is the way it is as a book I read on Emotional Intelligence pointed to research that bullies are often paranoid as a result of atribitary parenting. I can understand having endured near extermination and numerous violent actions in countries you live for millienia would make you paranoid and mean you wanted your own state. Palestine didn't help by refusing to accept the area split into two states from the off (which the Jews accepted) and the fact that none of its neighbours accept Israel's right to exist.

However no one who isn't Jewish can claim Israel isn't an ethnostate that violates human rights. So I'm sympathetic to them but that doesn't mean I think they're right or beyond criticism.
 
Never can get my head around it that a people's that survived the holocaust can treat other people so badly
 
Dora said:
Never can get my head around it that a people's that survived the holocaust can treat other people so badly
Click to expand...
Its the mentality of being safe no matter what. We must be safe, we must be strong - the determination of someone who has been victimised to be strong even if strength becomes ruthlessness and a lack of trust. Its not entirely unjustified the Arab Islamic states don't like the Jews and would happily drive them out at least. There are other things that I could say but I sometimes think victims go after the wrong people in their understandable paranoia and rage. The You Tuber Essence of Thought has fallen prey to this mentality is bullying those they percieve as enemies. I hate to say it but seeing themselves as the God's chosen people does lead at least some Jews to a certain arrogance as well. Its not all its very sad that the bleeplord who assassinated Yitzhak Rabin achieved what he wanted in undoing his good work. Shimon Perez tried and the same is true of Anwar Sadat of Egypt who was assassinated for compromising with Israel and gaining territory off them as a result.
 
I don't say much on the subject because I don't feel I have a full grasp on the history, beliefs and current circumstances. Along with that there doesn't appear to be an obvious solution so I'm never sure I can contribute much.

Having said that a couple of things do seem clear to me. One side is significantly better equipped than the other and that other side appears to suffer much more as things stand.

The above coupled with the outrageous weaponisation of antisemitism to smear good people lead me to conclude that the bulk of the current problems lie with the government of Israel.
 
Name the Stars said:
Hi! As a Jewish individual myself, who's family survived the Holocaust, I find what is going on in Israel very disturbing. It is utter rubbish that after being mistreated and persecuted ourselves, we have the right to mistreat and persecute others. Palestine and it's people need to be liberated/freed from the Israeli government, in my opinion. People should not be killed for their race/religion, you would think we would know that by now.
Also, I think people should know that it is not anti-semitic to criticize Israel. Israel is a country, with a government that commits atrocities. Jewish people are not Israel, and Israel is not Jewish people. Also, most Jews in my country do not support Israel currently, and I think it's the same in America. I feel like Israel is something that is kind of thrust upon us, given because people (mainly Christians) felt bad about the Holocaust. But Israel was never their land to give in the first place, because people, with their own government etc, already lived there.
A certain kind of white supremacy exists in Israel, which disturbs me. It is also disturbing how many countries support the apartheid in Israel, especially America. Donald Trump has been opnely dismissive of Jews who do not support it, calling us "disloyal", and such.
What do you guys think of the Israel Palestine situation?
Click to expand...

You're a very observant person.

And God, I know!!! It's a terrible situation for the Palestinians. Not only was their country STOLEN and renamed, but they're treated like animals. IT'S THEIR COUNTRY. How can anyone be okay with this occupation?!

I think of all of the Jews who suffered and perished under Hitler's regime; yet now, their descendants are inflicting similar horrors upon the Palestinian people. All those children suffering, and so many people being slaughtered by Palestine's occupying force...

Anyone who thinks that this is acceptable deserves a beat down.
 
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