Paris Attacks

Maybe a 'Not In Our Name' march like we saw in London before the Iraq war?
People didn't like the way a situation was developing and so they marched- that would show that they objected to something bad being done 'in their name'- like say their religion being used to excuse barbaric acts?
We saw Muslims march to object to a bunch of CARTOONS so what about a beheading or a bombing?

Terrorism doesn't have a religion.

Why should non-violent Muslims have to prove their condemnation of these horrible attacks? Why can't it just be taken for granted like everyone else's feelings about it. Extremists are a small pocket of violent humans that do not represent a whole religion.

Should all white Christians have to partake in a 'Not In My Name' march condemning, for example, the KKK?
 
JCoatsworth,
try and get it right will you, Muslims do not do as they are told by God. Muslims do not believe in God. Muslims believe in the words of Muhammad.
 
Terrorism doesn't have a religion.
But in this case it is religiously motivated.

Why should non-violent Muslims have to prove their condemnation of these horrible attacks? Why can't it just be taken for granted like everyone else's feelings about it. Extremists are a small pocket of violent humans that do not represent a whole religion.
Because the extremists' actions are motivated by the very same religion. And that pocket of extremists isn't as small as everybody seems to think:

JCoatsworth,
try and get it right will you, Muslims do not do as they are told by God. Muslims do not believe in God. Muslims believe in the words of Muhammad.
They believe in Allah (=god) and they believe the Koran is the word of Allah.
 
There's no parity here. Modern Western countries dont generally deny the right of another country to exist on the face of the earth and then go on to promise to obliterate it with nuclear weapons.
Nor has a Hindu (for example) gotten on a train with an machine gun with the intent of killling everyone on board. Do Christians kill cartoonists for how they dipict Jesus?

Not all, or even most, muslims are terrorists- that should go without saying- but there is a problem here and it is focused on this particular religion.
In Northern ireland when Catholics and Protestants were blowing each other up and shooting each other nobody was claiming that Buddhists were just as bad. The first thing you have to do is identify the problem before you can go about solving the problem.
Clearly the problem is extremist muslims.
Disclaimer: I'm a native Chinese with no religious belief. So I may be bulletproof of some political incorrectness accusations applicable to so-called western privileged social groups.

1. Buddhists ARE just as bad. They killed a lot of muslims in Burma. Buddhism was also used as a military morale tool along with Shintoism in WWII by Japanese (mainly navy) against the US.

2. The extremist muslims are one manifestation of a lot of real hidden problems instead of a problem root. In fact, it's far from the worst possible we can get. Here is some history backgrounds:
1) The premature shrink and retreat of the British Empire left the power vacuum for worst political powers. It's not an argue for colonialism but an observation of an inconvenient result of a disruptive/revolutionary end of colonialism. Unlike South Korea/post-war Japan, the new political powers hated the western world and refuse to blend in.
2) War-induced lack of local society structures that people can identify themselves/belong to. In a peaceful society, people can organize functional neighborhood/clubs/towns because they think they will be there after 5 years. In a war zone, the only thing that has a resemblance of society structure is a religious organization.
3) The middle east has a lot of natural resources to support an otherwise totally dysfunctional political structure. Many of them have no incentive to reform or change because of no emergent necessarity.​
We should feel lucky. If the political powers are not local, instead they are agents of China, and if the religious organizations are not various different muslin beliefs but an single anti-western agenda, with the crude oil in hand, you know what it would be? Soviet Union on steroids.

3. The terrorist attacks attracted too much focus not proportional to its real damage/threats. The war on terror sacrificed a huge amount of civil rights, resources and attentions. Worse, it made China jump on the same ship and pretend to be the anti-terrorism ally for at least 10 years. Terrorists are like MOTWs: scary and easy to find/defeat while China's like the Mayor/W&H: seems affinity/friendly but capable of much greater threat. Recently the Chinese government began aggressively bullying and provoking every single small neighbor countries just like the pre-WWII Nazi Germany. Hope it's not too late for the world to see it's true face.

I am more interested to discuss Buffy than real-world tragic, death and conflicts. So ranting over.🙂
 
bespangeled
bespangeled
Thank you for history without Western bias!
Terrorism doesn't have a religion.

But these terrorists are motivated BY religion so of course its pertinent to any discussion. It was also pertinet to the reign of terror in Northern Ireland. Catholics killed Protestants and vice-versa.
The political and religious motivations were acknowledged and dealt with.

Why should non-violent Muslims have to prove their condemnation of these horrible attacks?

There have been several very good documentary's/reports by Dispatches/Channel 4 and The Gaurdian newspaper which shows an alarming amount of sympathy for the extremist cause. Ever since 9/11 in fact.

After 7/7 a muslim reporter infiltrated Islamic communitys in Birmingham, Bradford and Leeds and found some simply astonishing POV- amongst them the beleif that the 7/7 attacks had been faked to instigate a war on Muslims (despite the fact that the bombers left video's behind after death), that the bombers were right in doing what they were doing, or simple apathy at the violence that had taken place.

I would like to see condemnation because I see a worrying amount of the exact opposite.

BBC News | TV AND RADIO | BBC chief apologises for terror debate
Revealed: preachers' messages of hate
9/11: The dark day that brought out the worst in Britain
Undercover Mosque



Catholics in Northern Ireland marched against the IRA. The Pope condemned their acts of violence as did the priesthood in Northern Ireland. I sat in a church as a priest was reduced to tears at the thought that a man could plant a bomb next to a pram and walk away and call it anything to do with Catholicism.

They did march and object because it wasn't about blame but about human decency- about how angry they were about their religion was being hi-jacked by a minority and used as a weapon, a tool for terror, a way of dividing peoples when it should bring people together.

Should all white Christians have to partake in a 'Not In My Name' march condemning, for example, the KKK?

When is the last time the KKK initiated a campaign of terror?
Also the fact is that the motivation behind the KKK- racism/white supremacy- is condemed by the vast majority of right thinking white people. Racism in society is not tolerated within most Wesern Democracies. Of course it isn't blanket condemnation (unfortunately) but there's a clear tide of public opinion against.
 
Cultural exchange goes both ways, which is reasonable. This is why i have no problem knowing more about Islam and adjusting, we can learn a lot. I even agree going all PC and giving up some of the freedom of speech i am accustomed to (let's admit, since the attack on Charlie Hebdo the press is even more careful about cartoons and stuff, not that before it was risk-free to critique Islam) but i am onboard integrating emigrants and creating a multicultural, democratic society in the western world, without fear or suspicion, which is stupid and counterproductive. There are many things need to work on, (just one example, the demand to implement Sharia law), but in general, all those problems can be solved.

Islam itself isn't a problem, it's a nifty religion, albeit a bit static, but coupled with pan-arabism and ignorance, is used as a tool by the ruling groups in Muslim countries to keep the population in check.
They distrust western culture and it's influence on the minds of their subjects, wanting to preserve their power and their culture, and who can blame them 😉
aside the cultural differences the problem is demographic: the uncontrolled growth of the population in poorer Muslim countries like Syria, Yemen, or Egypt (which, once being a exporter of wheat now imports 40% of it's food, 60% of it wheat) Results among the poor in the lack of resources like water and housing, high level of malnutrition among children, lack of good quality education at the basic and secondary levels and so on. So we had the Arab Spring where the more educated questioned the unequal distribution of wealth, wanted democratic representation and fight against corruption, all of which sounded real good and acquired popular support, but unfortunately it seems the alternative to a faulty government is Islam and the creation of religious parties. We've seen the results in Syria, Lybia and Egypt. none of them is a democracy now, though when the Arab Spring started the keywords were 'democracy' and 'freedom' and there were high hopes it will improve the faulty and oppressive political systems. as if.
Well, apparently Muslim culture don't have the equivalent of ancient greek ideas of democracy and not really identifies with Kant, Rousseau or Marx,
or have a pragmatic political philosophy like Confucianism and even if the intelligentsia are familiar with all those, it doesn't speak to the masses 🙂
So all they have is Islam and the glory days of old islamic empires. So in the Muslim countries the answer is Islam, which represents justice and gives clear directives how to build an ideal society.

It looks more neat in wealthy arab countries in the Persian Gulf like U.A.E, Kuwait, Saudi and Qatar. There is no social unrest there, the people have a high standard of living and mostly content.
Their governments sponsor extremist terrorists all over the globe and try to preserve the wealth in their small group scared and opposing any
western influence in their political systems, but they cooperate with the west as they're in need of military protection. Then there is Iran, which with the destruction of Iraq is a dominant power,
Erogan's Turkey, who tries to solve Turkey's economic problems by moving closer to oil money, Putin with his ambitions, US, the weakening hegemon with it's allies and their new playground, Syria and Lebanon.

I honestly don't understand what ISIS want? They're also bombing mosques in the Middle East where Muslims gather to worship Allah. If they were really Muslims as they claim, why do they only bomb mosques in the Middle East? Mosque bombing has happened in Kuwait and Saudi Arabia. And on Friday, the main day of worship for Muslims where a lot of Muslims pray in the mosques instead of home.

In feel so sick about what happened in Paris. Just thinking of those poor people who went there to have fun. It's only the innocent who pay the price and that's so depressing.
it's because of power games in the muslim world are played that way, religion is mostly a tool used rather cynically. Arab leaders often see their people as sheep sent to slaughter. if you can imagine a sheep with a suicide belt.
besides, remember the history lessons about wars all over Europe after the protestant reformation? those were quite bloody. People persuaded to kill each other by their leaders about in which language they should praise good, latin or their local one? Shia and Sunni muslims behave in the same pattern. Funny guys. Plus, religious fanaticism is not just for poor, ignorant brainwashed masses somewhere in a Syrian village, we have those among the more educated teenagers struggling with identity crisis run away from their homes in london / paris to join the ISIL. Terrorism is very effective, that's why it is financed and used widely in the muslim world and thanks to the temptation of radical Islam there is no lack in volunteers, so i think we can assume they won't stop with it soon. besides our urban regions are very vulnerable and a tempting target to them. Especially as we don't need to dig too deep to find some of western imperialism and it's effects on the arab states. what with even their borders drawn by british and french rulers.

Iraq was the last secular country in the area - nonreligious but keeping others at bay with talk of WMD. Bush blew up the entire damn apple cart - and the shit is hitting the fan big time.
It's because he operated under the delusion that he could create an ally in the region and stabilize it. Like the US occupation/reconstruction of Japan after WW2 which played out well 🙂
It's like they don't have any experts in the Pentagon on the subject 🙁
I am not saying that Saddam's regime in Iraq was a peaceful one. Just think about the 1,5 victims of the Iran-Iraq war, (in the context of the Cold War)
or later, his attempt to annex Kuwait and the following Gulf War in the early 1990s, which some compared with the 1939 occupation of czechoslovakia by Hitler, only with more oil in the picture.
 
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bespangeled
bespangeled
Good context!
My view on ISIS are that they are CIA-MOSSAD so to have peaceful Muslims march against attacks that Western intelligence agencies trained and armed, to me, is absurd. If anything we should all march against that sort of thing.

ISIS is being used to divide and conquer the middle east, to maintain a dangerously oversized and powerful US (and UK) military presence in the middle east, for attacking whichever middle eastern countries they need to. Terrorism. Perpetual war. I'm sure we'll find out in the coming days or weeks what their specific plans are. Just need to look carefully for it.

If the "War on Terror" is to ever end then western countries have to stop giving motivation and resources to attack the west, y'know, for a start.

Anyway, I won't post more here incase I end up being branded a conspiricy loon or an extremist sympathiser. In no way am I trying to take from the deaths of ordinary people that have happened last night, or anytime in the past. I think the loss of life through terrorism is a disgrace to humanity and such a waste. Rest in peace to my old alliance citizens. Peace and love to all.
 
I heard some people who were at the stadium complaining that they didn't have their belongings searched, or they were poorly searched; here, we can't enter a stadium or a music hall with an umbrella or a bottle of water (they think one could throw it at the band!), let alone weapons. The terrorists at Bataclan had automatic guns and bombs attached to their bodies!
 
Mon coeur est avec tous ceux qui ont été victimes des attentats en France, ainsi qu'avec leurs familles et proches.

I also have thoughts for all of my Muslim friends, and strangers, who will be blamed for something that they have no power over.

What happened showed the worst in humans, just as many events all over the world shows every day.
 
Anyway, I won't post more here incase I end up being branded a conspiricy loon or an extremist sympathiser. In no way am I trying to take from the deaths of ordinary people that have happened last night, or anytime in the past. I think the loss of life through terrorism is a disgrace to humanity and such a waste. Rest in peace to my old alliance citizens. Peace and love to all.
I share your sentiments. I, too, don't want to be seen as part of a certain group that I'm not really part of.
Just to clarify my position, I'm not opposed to people practicing their religions, as long as they do it peacefully. I completely and fully support freedom of religion. I live in Germany, so naturally I know quite a lot of Muslims or people of Muslim roots. In no way am I generalizing Muslims. The sad truth, however, is that a noteworthy number of Muslims (mainly in the eastern world) support the actions of these extremists, and a lot of Muslims in the western world keep mum about it, which is one of the biggest problems we're facing, in my opinion.
Gökay Sofuoglu, the chairperson of the Muslim community in Germany, made a statement, which I fully support:

Gleichzeitig forderte er, dass sich die Muslime in Deutschland und auch die muslimischen Verbände nun ausdrücklich gegen den Terror stellen sollten. "Es ist an der Zeit, dass klare Worte gegen den Terror des IS formuliert werden. Fehl am Platz wären jetzt besänftigende Sätze in der Art, dass der Islam im Grunde eine Religion des Friedens ist und solche Gewaltexzesse nicht gutheißt."
Source

Translation:
At the same time, he's calling for all Muslims in Germany as well as the Muslim organizations to now explicitly stand up against the terror. "It is time to phase clear words against the terror of the IS. Soothing words, in the fashion of Islam, at its bottom, being a religion of peace and not supporting such extreme acts of violence, would be misguided."

Now, if only all Muslims around the world would follow this man's example.

Having said this, I will now join GwenRaiden and refrain from making further comments in this thread.
 
Watching the news, and a number of people are talking how random the attack was because they could not find a reason to attack on that date: 13 November 2015. But, it was on Friday the 13th. Most people do not understand the reason Friday the 13th is thought of as a bad day. If you have studied European history, the Knight Templars downfall started on 'Friday the 13th'. True, that was just a little over 700 years ago. But it started in France, and the Knight Templars were part of the Crusades. That is just my theory.
 
Yes, they get beheaded in the streets and thrown off rooftops and all kinds of sick stuff, just because they, for example, are homosexual or refuse to pray or wear a hijab. And this is exactly why I don't understand why the so-called "moderate Muslims" don't react stronly against Islamists. Whenever something like this happens, they seem to deny that the terrorists are part of the same religion, no matter how different their principles.

They do react - those moderate Muslims are now flooding Europe because they reacted. Islam split into 2 branches - Sunni and Shia. The Shia are a minority - Iran is the only country where the Shia dominate. Sunni's blow up Shia mosques. Shia retaliate - both have crazy wings. But the 90% who just want to live their lives are lucky if they lived to pick thrush the rubble of their homes. They have no power - while the corrupt govt and the religious fanatics bomb the shit out of them.

Look today for the responses from Muslim leaders and you will find wholesale condemnation. Those are meant.
 
JCoatsworth
JCoatsworth
This is good to hear. There was nothing close to this kind of reaction after the Charlie Hebdo attack.
I had a feeling that there would be some retaliation towards the refugees in France as some would blame them. Seems there was a fire that raged its way through the large refugee camp last night.

What I did love was seeing the people gather in the streets. Although they were urged to stay at home people gathered to show the world they were not afraid.
 
I can't help but sometimes think that if the reasonable people stayed and fixed their countries rather than leaving we might have a better chance.
They tried that. Google 'arab spring'. And what's 'reasonable' anyway? As in "let's be reasonable guys, stop this crazyness?" You got to present an alternative that will speak to the people.
 
I don't need to Google it, I know what it is. Reasonable means not thinking it's a viable thing to do to go into a music hall and kill 100 people. But there will never be change unless something happens from within.
 
This is a terrible crime, yet another terrorist attack upon a Eurpoean country. UK, Spain, Denmark, France (numerous times). France has declared it an act of war. I sympathise.

It's horrific!

Not only that, but the Western media refuses to show the Christians being persecuted in Arabic countries. There are christian refugees dying in droves and in fear for their life in ever Islamic corner of the world and they are being ignored.

Oh, yes - as more of these countries radicalize the Christian are being increasingly targeted. That's kinda why I said that Jews are canaries in the coal mine - because most of these countries have either killed off or exiled their Jewish populations.

There's no parity here. Modern Western countries dont generally deny the right of another country to exist on the face of the earth and then go on to promise to obliterate it with nuclear weapons.
Nor has a Hindu (for example) gotten on a train with an machine gun with the intent of killling everyone on board. Do Christians kill cartoonists for how they dipict Jesus?

Modern countries - have to define that before I answer. But there has been more bloodshed - or at least as much - between Hindus and Muslims over Kashmir. There have been the same kind of terror attacks on both sides without much new coverage here. I remember my shock at reading about a series of Hindu and Buddhist riots - I mean, Buddhists riot?! In China Buddhists have rioted against Muslims (minority group). We see Islamic terrorism because 9/11 happened, but it has all been out there for a long time. We are talking about deaths in the thousand with no media coverage.

Not all, or even most, muslims are terrorists- that should go without saying- but there is a problem here and it is focused on this particular religion.
In Northern ireland when Catholics and Protestants were blowing each other up and shooting each other nobody was claiming that Buddhists were just as bad. The first thing you have to do is identify the problem before you can go about solving the problem.
Clearly the problem is extremist muslims.

Yeah - so long as you agree that the extremists are a small percentage I can go with that. But I do object to the death threats at the local mosque school that kept the kids inside because they are not the problem. Muslim extremism has turned into a incredibly dangerous force for the entire world. Like I said - training, arms, money and religious fanatics. But I will stand by what I said - that all religions have a crazy wing. Just most don't have the resources.

None of the events about have that much to do with Paris though do they? I can understand (in abstract) Mulsim hatred of the US or UK, but the fact is they target anyone who is non-muslim (tell me what has Denmark, the most tolerant European country, done wrong to warrent the rise of extremists within its borders?) and making excuses for why this sort of thing originated doesn't help the situation now.
The situation in France has much more to do with displaced Algerians anyway, who feel that they are second-class citizens and has led to increased internal tensions and ghetto-ization on the outskirts of the Capital.

Not in our minds they don't. This goes back to WWI and the dissolution of the Ottoman Empire.

Please believe me, I am in no way making excuse, I am simply giving historical context and a broader view of the problem. For one thing there is a popular notion that Israel started this problem and if we got rid of Israel there would be no problem. That really is insane troll logic if you look at the big picture - both historically and geographically. Where I can see and relate the history and geography I am heart sick at the violence and I have no solution.

Yes - exactly. And French Muslim young men go to Algeria and Syria to get trained in Jihad. They are most likely the terrorists who committed the atrocities last night.


Generalities for the why and wherefor on either side help no-one.
I can't help that feel that, so soon after 128 Parisians lost their lives to bombs and guns, its the wrong time to be pointing out the sins of the West. In the strongest possible terms we need to figure out solutions, not pointing fingers at apparent causes, some of which were decades ago.

I am talking about history. Someone asked what do they want - so I gave short history lesson of where this all came from. When history is decried as partisan then we live in a world without context.
 
I don't need to Google it, I know what it is. Reasonable means not thinking it's a viable thing to do to go into a music hall and kill 100 people. But there will never be change unless something happens from within.
Okay then. What's your advice to a syrian family when brave freedom fighters enter their village to recruit their 10+ sons into their army and plant missiles that'll probably make the village a military target of the various forces in the area? What's the reasonable behaviour then? Not to run for their lives but stay and try to improve matters?

When i lived in europe i also thought like you, but living in the middle east for a few years gives a bit different perspective.
 
All I said was, there might be a better chance of solving things if people stayed and fought. Or if more people fought for change outside the border. I never said I had all the answers or that it was an easy fix.
 
Skanky Vamp
Skanky Vamp
You've no answer because there is no answer. Hasn't been one in 1500 years, don't see one anytime soon.
just one example, the demand to implement Sharia law),

One small attempt to shoot down this bugaboo. Hebrew courts exist throughout the US - they deal with religious matters. A Hasidic woman can only get a divorce from a Hebrew court. This is all that Sharia law is - religious law that affects only Muslims having a religious difficulty who bring that difficulty to their own court.. All religious courts do not have standing above civil or criminal courts.

If the "War on Terror" is to ever end then western countries have to stop giving motivation and resources to attack the west, y'know, for a start.

I believe we are past that point. Also - look to India and Pakistan and the thousand killed in religious was in part over Kashmir. This is a global problem now.

I can't help but sometimes think that if the reasonable people stayed and fixed their countries rather than leaving we might have a better chance.

Hard to do when the bombs are falling. We are lucky enough to have a say in our govt - that's actually kinda rare. In a lot of place people who try to have a say end up hanging from lampposts.

I had a feeling that there would be some retaliation towards the refugees in France as some would blame them. Seems there was a fire that raged its way through the large refugee camp last night.

Damn - so tragic. How can they not realize that these people are refugees from the same terror that has destroyed their lives?
 
Wildfly
Wildfly
I think sharia courts can be compatible with human rights in the western world, cos all is in the interpretation, that's why i wrote it's a solvable problem.
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