Paris Attacks

Just because this one is a fake doesn't mean it's not happening. I know for a fact lots of Muslim at my school were praying for France after what happened.

That's true, but false images is still a problem. I mean this morning there was, similarily, a picture circulated by muslim-hostile groups here going "check this out, Swedish muslims are celebrating the Paris attacks!" Quickly people produced the evidence that the picture was also about five years old. Now most would agree that that is a problematic use of the image, that the fact that it is fake is not ok. Conversely, fallaciously using pictures for the other side of the spectrum is equally problematic.

Also, I would disagree that "most people" understand the context of holy books. Surely extremists interpret and can even pervert according to their agenda, but the books are a matter of interpretation for everyone, and plenty of people cherry pick what to interpret and how. Meaning, that passage can be interpreted in multiple ways.
 
bespangeled
bespangeled
Agreed!
So basically it does not condone killing, unless it is those of transgressors.
Exactly. It does condone it. Just as reciprocal justice is condoned in other abrahamic religions. But when people quote it as saying (paraphrasing) "killing innocents is wrong" it's not at all what the text says. People on social media are spouting that passage as 'proof' that it's not a violent religion. It's preposterous. It IS a violent religion, but not moreso than the others. But, just like guns; the problem is not the religion, it's who's wielding the religion.
 
Blaze
Blaze
I do agree that all religion can be violent, and honestly the world would be a much better place without religion
That's true, but false images is still a problem. I mean this morning there was, similarily, a picture circulated by muslim-hostile groups here going "check this out, Swedish muslims are celebrating the Paris attacks!" Quickly people produced the evidence that the picture was also about five years old. Now most would agree that that is a problematic use of the image, that the fact that it is fake is not ok. Conversely, fallaciously using pictures for the other side of the spectrum is equally problematic.

Oh absolutely. I should have been more clear. The use of an old image is obviously a problem. I just meant to say that people are still doing it, even though that image was false.

Also, I would disagree that "most people" understand the context of holy books. Surely extremists interpret and can even pervert according to their agenda, but the books are a matter of interpretation for everyone, and plenty of people cherry pick what to interpret and how. Meaning, that passage can be interpreted in multiple ways.

This might just be an issue with the type of people I've been around. I must say when it comes to Islam I've seen the brighter side of things. At work I'm the only white person, the rest being Saudi Arabian girls. So I've mostly seen their views, which are not extremist. But I'll be the first one to say that I absolutely hate extremist religion of all kinds. But again around here it's Catholics that are more prevalent, not Muslims. And in my book extremist Catholics can be awful. But my point was pretty much the same as yours, people can interpret a passage in multiple ways. I can see why people, Muslim and non-Muslim, would interpret this passage as one of peace.
 
@Blaze "the world would be a much better place without religion" I wouldn't go that far. I think the world would be even more dismal without religion. For some, their faith is the only reason they make it through the day.. you take that away and then all they have is hopelessness.
 
@Blaze "the world would be a much better place without religion" I wouldn't go that far. I think the world would be even more dismal without religion. For some, their faith is the only reason they make it through the day.. you take that away and then all they have is hopelessness.

My psychology professor once told me that religion is the biggest accepted delusion in the World. I'm inclined to agree with him. If religion didn't exist, those people would likely just find another way to cope...but it's also a vicious circle. It is in human nature to invent something such as religion, which is why religion will never disappear.
 
Skanky Vamp
Skanky Vamp
But people need their delusions
If the idea of voting and protesting against the people profiteering from the misery in the middle east is naive then surely so is the idea of asking Muslims to get out on the street and protest against a rabble they've never met and have no influence over. Do we ask Christians to hit the streets every time one of their priests get caught raping children? Or when their church covers it up in case it makes them look bad?
 
bespangeled
bespangeled
Besides which - at least here - the profiteers own the easily corruptible voting machines.
And now we're religion bashing 'religion is a delusion, religion is evil, we would all be better off without religion'...🙁
 
And now we're religion bashing 'religion is a delusion, religion is evil, we would all be better off without religion'...🙁

Religion has a lot to answer for. I don't think it will ever cease to exist though, ever. When people say "religion is evil" I think they are specifically referencing religious extremists murdering innocents, all over the world. Using religion to commit heinous acts of violence is evil. Therefore, those individual humans are evil, twisted and wrong. To me, religion is a big problem and people can use it to incite violence.

I'm from Glasgow (AKA Northern Ireland lite) and for decades people have been murdered due to their respective Catholic or Protestant beliefs - which two main football teams from the city made even worse. Religion, to me, breeds generational hatred, violence and fear that keep many people, including myself and family, indoors when Protestant marches are on. So yeah, I tend to bash religion at times when it affects my day to day life.
 
Blaze
Blaze
Exactly, I would never say all religion is evil. But yes, I am strongly against extremists, extreme religion has caused a lot of pain in this world.
Religion has a lot to answer for. I don't think it will ever cease to exist though, ever. When people say "religion is evil" I think they are specifically referencing religious extremists murdering innocents, all over the world. Using religion to commit heinous acts of violence is evil. Therefore, those individual humans are evil, twisted and wrong. To me, religion is a big problem and people can use it to incite violence.

Everything that has influence in the world has a lot to answer for. Political idealogy has killed millions upon millions but you never here anyone saying 'all politics is evil', technology has been responsible for untold deaths through advanced weaponry and yet not many people would blithy say during a conversation that all technology is evil.

The difference is that a lot of people don't believe that religion, unlike politics or technology, is at all useful or helps people. Because when these people say that 'religion is delusion' obviously they're not religious and don't really see the point of it on any level. They clearly don't see the 'upside' like they do with those other things.

Human nature dictates that people will be shits to each other for lots of different reasons. And they will be nice to each other for lots of reasons as well. Religion sits on both sides of that scale, good and bad.

Religion has done a lot of good in the world as well, and that shouldn't be forgotten just because somebody wants to use one religion as a stick to beat all other religions with.

I'm from Glasgow (AKA Northern Ireland lite) and for decades people have been murdered due to their respective Catholic or Protestant beliefs - which two main football teams from the city made even worse. Religion, to me, breeds generational hatred, violence and fear that keep many people, including myself and family, indoors when Protestant marches are on. So yeah, I tend to bash religion at times when it affects my day to day life.

Well I remember Northern Ireland very clearly and while there was religious divide and hatred, religion also brought families together. Communities would go to church after an attack- a beating, a bomb, a shooting, they would support grieving families and victims of terrorism, they would find strength through their belief, they would forgive those who hurt them because violence would beget violence, they would find comfort in this 'delusion' and it would make their lives just that bit easier.
Religion affected my daily life too, in both positive and negative ways- so I know the answer is so simple as a blanket statement.


GwenRaiden: All politics IS evil. I hate ALL politicians. And FYI, I didn't say religious people were delusional! 🙂 I'm glad religion gives people strength, I have many Catholic and Protestant friends but they're not offended by my views at all.

That would make you an anarchist then? Anarchists beleive in no societal structure beyond the family unit. No politics, meaning no government of any kind, that sort of thing? That's actually pretty interesting. 🙂

And for the record I'm not that offended by the 'all religion is *insert blanket statement* here' but I do get tired of it being wheeled out whenever the topic of Islam comes up. Religion does good, and it does bad. Just like most other things.
 
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GwenRaiden
GwenRaiden
All politics IS evil. I hate ALL politicians. And FYI, I didn't say religious people were delusional! :) I'm glad religion gives people strength, I have many Catholic and Protestant friends but they're not offended by my views at all.
Can we get back to the Paris attacks?
The Catholic v Protestant is so involved, it will be best discussed in a separate thread.
 
But it only adds to the problem. Just as the people erroneously quoting the Quran 5:32 passage to make it seem like killing is not condoned, when in fact it's the opposite.

Killing is condoned in every religion - if not by words, then by actions. Sad fact.
 
Skanky Vamp
Skanky Vamp
Of course it is because it predates religion. It's ingrained in our nature.
Any chance of not referring to the extremists as Muslim, Devil Worshippers might be a nice name to start calling them.
 
I remember there being a report last year saying how (I think) it was 30% of 'younger' French citizens supported the Muslim militant groups and had a positive perception of ISIS.
 
Just heard some news that has got me feeling even more uneasy about these attacks. One of the victims at the gig lived in the town down the road from me. He ran a club night at a venue I've been to many times. He sold merch for bands I've seen a lot. Chances are we've been at loads of gigs together over the last 10 years or so. Probably even had a beer and a chat at some point.

You get so used to hearing about tragedies that it becomes normal. Normal but happening far away. It just brings it home that no one's safe. All these people were doing enjoying a gig and then this happens. I never thought about it much before but I only missed being caught up in the 7/7 bombings by an hour or two. I was due in London that day.

It makes you think about what it must be like for the people who have this level of fear as their normal life.
 
bespangeled
bespangeled
I'm sorry - been there. It just sticks in our mind and makes you think.
I remember there being a report last year saying how (I think) it was 30% of 'younger' French citizens supported the Muslim militant groups and had a positive perception of ISIS.

Yeah - and the opposite side is the skinhead neo-nazis - also very popular. Kinda understand why Jews have been coming to the US and Israel.
 
Because when these people say that 'religion is delusion' obviously they're not religious and don't really see the point of it on any level.

Just to be clear it was a professor of mine that said that (and a professor renowned worldwide for his breaking research). He said that based on studies on the human brain, he wasn't just saying it out of not believing in religion, he actually dedicated his life to studying religion and the brain as a neuroscientist.

And again maybe just to clear a few things, I would never say that all religion is evil, I'm the first one to defend people that practice religion in a peaceful way. I'm not religious myself, but I can agree with the principles of my Muslim friends whom fallow a God that preach love, not war. But just as I am accepting of those people's religion, I am not accepting of extremist groups and people who use religion as a way to hurt others. (yes, that also applies to politicians and technology, it's not all black and white).
 
Any chance of not referring to the extremists as Muslim, Devil Worshippers might be a nice name to start calling them.
Why you call them that? Religion can be interpreted in the range from Francis of Assisi to the Spanish Inquisition.
We can play a game and quote passages that contradict each other, some in favour of war and destruction of enemies and some very peaceful and righteous. If/when those guys will estabilish a state the rules and their implementation wont be that dissimilar from some of the regimes that are full members of the UN and sit in human rights comittees.
if i recall correctly, Muammar Gaddafi was nominated to run the UN Human Rights Commission 😉
 
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It makes you think about what it must be like for the people who have this level of fear as their normal life.
My friend went to Israel and he was taken aback by that. That there were bomb shelters everywhere. Little kids playing on a playground all within running distance to a bomb shelter. This was maybe a decade ago since he's been, but he said it was very sobering to see how they live their life always with the threat or reminders of violence hanging over their heads.
 
Wildfly
Wildfly
Ahh, it's not that bad. Bombs and missiles and terror we're used to, nothing exciting, but heavy rains in the winter are terrible.
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