Paternal Rights

[palabravampiress]

I was talking to my friend about paternal rights the other day. I don't know how it came up, but she says she doesn't think biological fathers should have any rights automatically. She thinks it should be up to the mom to decide what's best for her family -- including whether or not she wants to subject her kid to the possible trauma of including a father who will likely run off after a couple of years. She is under the impression that most men don't want to be fathers. Furthermore, with the family structure being so much in flux right now, she disagrees with the notion of one legal default. I don't fully understand her position, so I'm sure I'm not doing it justice in this explanation of it, but this is what I gathered.

To be clear, what she proposes in lieu of paternal rights is to remove both rights and responsibilities.

I was flummoxed by her assertion that most men don't want children. She seemed to take it as a given. Neither my husband nor I want children, so I certainly understand being in that position, but I have always been given to understand that our position is the exception rather than the rule. So, to the men on the buffy boards, I ask: do you want children? If you were to get a woman pregnant unexpectedly, would you want your paternal rights? Why or why not?

For my part, I completely disagree with my friend. She said that if she were to get pregnant tomorrow, she'd force the guy to sign away his rights. If he refused, she'd terminate. That sounds a lot like blackmail to me, and while I am fully in favor of a woman having the right to make her own medical decisions (termination included) while she is pregnant, I don't think abortion is supposed to be used as a form of blackmail for the purpose of coercing someone to waive his legally guaranteed rights to his offspring. Women fought for many years for the vote, for access to birth control and related medical care, for abortion... basically, for the right to control their own fertility rather than to be controlled by it (and, by extension, by men). That being the case, I can't see how it's right to turn around and strip men of these same rights.

What do you think, Buffy Boards?

 

[Joyce Summers]

Okay, loaded question there. Haha.
And here is the loaded answer.

Loaded Answer the First: In case of divorce where there are young children involved, I believe the Mother should automatically be given custody of them, unless in case exceptions such as an abusive mother etc. Because 90% of the time I think it natural for a young child to wish to be with their Mother and in my own personal experience and experience of friends Mothers are generally more reliable than Father. I mean even if you have a great Father I think the majority in any situation would turn to their Moms first. If ya get me? However, I don't believe rights to the child should be taken away from the Father completely. If he wants to be involved his his child's/children's life he should be allowed to be. Exceptions yet again only being in the case of an abusive or unstable Father, in which case keeping the children away from him completely is for the safety of the kids.

Loaded Answer the Second (that isn't really that loaded...); Most men don't want children? I certainly don't believe that. Sure there *are* men who don't want children, but there are also women who don't want children either. But there are many men who would love to have kids. Case in point is my own husband. Currently, I'm pregnant with our first child (A girl we recently found out much to my and every other female in my family's joy haha) but while this pregnancy is *not* a mistake it was certainly not planned and came as a shock to both of us. While I was the one going 'oh god, this is going to change everything. Oh goddy god god', Hubby was doing what I can only call the Dance of Joy. He spent his first reaction being overjoyed before remembering afterwards to ask 'oh, and are you okay about this honey?'. My point is, he *clearly* wants children and has always stated so.

Loaded Answer The Third: While I'm not entirely keen on the concept of abortion I have nothing against the women who choose to do this. It is just not something I myself would ever consider. However, I have to agree with what you thought here and that your friend seems to be using this as blackmail. Saying in essence 'sign away rights or else the baby goes' is wrong on a lot of levels. And if the Father wants to be involved, why shouldn't be? I mean unless he's a drunken drug addict who likes acting out Liza Minelli's part in Cabaret I really don't see what the problem would be.

And I totally agree with your final comment. To allow women the equal rights we've spent decades fighting for (well, I say we. I didn't really do anything about it since when it all started I wasn't born and it was pretty much finished by the time I was...so *technically* I should be saying 'they'......) men have to be allowed the same rights also otherwise we fall into the same kind of predjudice we fought so hard to eradicate.

(And wow, I *may* have sounded like a pompous ass there, but there we go. Haha.)

 

[SpikedBuffy]

I know plenty of men who want children. I'd say that's insane troll logic, to assume that men do not want children.

My own husband wants children. The thing with us, we just want to take care of a few things first before we have them. But that doesn't mean he doesn't want them.

We have a brother and a cousin who both ended up pregnant with their girlfriends, way before they were even ready to contemplate staying together as couple. They had both accepted it and included in the situtaion (one has since lost the baby), so there's an example there.

 

[Harley]

I don't know everyone in the world, but I have seen in my own life experiences that families that have both a mother and a father usually have children that have a more "complete" outlook as far as families are concerned, than those who never know their father/mother.

I think it's terrible that your friend would choose abortion over having a child with a father active in their life. It almost seems like they would have to have been seriously hurt by a father-figure in their life to think that way. I know a lot of girls who would give the world to have a father in their life. To suggest that you'd kill baby instead of having that is just so wrong to me.

But I think abortion is evil anyway.

 

[StuckinTraffic]

I have a nephew who got his g-friend pregnant a couple years ago. They were a "casually dating" kinda couple, not a "we're getting married someday" couple, but he took the situation firmly in stride and is very involved in his son's life, tho he and the mother are no longer together. Ryan spends a couple weekends a month with his dad, Tray's always there to help the mother if she needs it (doctor appointments and the like, she's a student at UNC, so sometimes it's hard to juggle.) I think he wouldn't have had it any other way. Certainly if he'd felt like it was a long-term thing with her, he'd have asked her to marry him, but he just didn't....that didn't make him turn his back on his child and if he had it to do all over again, I'm sure he'd do the same thing. Signing away his parental rights would not have been an option for him. Not sure if he wanted a kid at the time, but you don't always get what you want. I do know he'd like to have more kids some day, tho.

 

[white avenger]

From personal (or, I guess SEMI-personal) experience, it's usually best for the child that it grows up with and knows both parents as long as they both want to share the responsibility of parenting. We had to deal with a woman who "did not share her children." My son loves children, is experienced with them, and genuinely wanted to share in the responsibility of raising his daughter. The mother was so adamantly opposed to it that we eventually had to go through the courts and arbitration to get even minimal visitation rights, and even after that, she has continued to fight the court ruling, causing us to bring in lawyers on more than one occasion. Her latest ploy (she's filed charges of sexual molestation against him, not once, but twice) was to demand that he undergo a complete psychiatric evaluation to determine his fitness to be a parent.

We've tried to keep the baby out of all this turmoil as much as possible, but this is what we've had to deal with for the last 4 years, and it really doesn't seem to me that things are going to get a whole lot better in the foreseeable future. All this does is cause unnecessary trouble and expense, and create more tension between the two families. This is most definitely no way to raise a child.

 

[palabravampiress]

See, I'm agreeing with the "insane troll logic" thing. lol. It just doesn't make any sense to assume that a father is automatically some sort of danger to the child merely by virtue of being male.

She said she should be able to do what's best for her kid. I said I agree that a parent should be able to do what's best for the kid, but that it's his kid, too. She said, "No, it's MY kid. I will have carried it for nine months. He will just have donated sperm." I told her that if she wanted a sperm donor, then she should get a sperm donor. They give up their rights ahead of time. I also said my dad loves and wanted me VERY much. I then reminded her that her own father also loves and wanted her. She said that was a long time ago, back when getting married and then having babies was the norm and that that was no longer the case. With so many other options for building a family, she didn't want to be legally tied to that one family structure. I said, "So only married guys should have rights to their kids?" That was non-insane troll logic. lol. Anyway, she just seemed very stuck on the idea that the dad wasn't going to want the kid and wasn't going to stick around - in, like, 99.9% of cases - and that the law should reflect that fact and allow her to safeguard the emotional health of her family instead of some arbitrary rights. I replied that the law is there to safeguard rights, not to babysit emotions. She said the father should have the rights she chooses to give him. To that, I said, "those aren't really rights, then, are they?" We just went around and around, and I can't say I understand her position.

Her outlook on this is very weird. It doesn't make sense. In my ideal world, mothers and fathers have equal rights and equal responsibilities. I think simple biology necessitates a bigger say in things for the woman while she is pregnant. I mean, pregnancy carries with it a lot of risk. No one should be able to force medical decisions on anyone else. But once the baby is born, I think the mother and father should share equally (or as equally as possible) in the rights and responsibilities of parenthood. At the very least, no man parent should be barred from his or her children (unless he or she is legally proven a danger). As much as my friend may want to deny it, it takes two to create a life.

I think what it all boiled down to was that she said she wouldn't want to raise a child with any of the men with whom she's been involved in the last few years. She knew them. She felt confident that those men would stick around out of obligation and then leave a couple of years later, causing a child much undue stress and confusion. I said, "so, because you assume -- you don't know; you just assume -- that these particular men will run off in approximately 2 years, you think all men should be denied paternal rights? That's punishing all men for your bad boyfriends." I also told her I thought that meant she might need to reconsider her choice in men. She insisted she didn't want to punish anyone, but that she just wanted to protect her family.

I don't know. It was weird. I, for one, have a very loving father. His kids are both grown, but I would absolutely fight for his rights or for those of any other man. I don't think feminism has to go so far as to place men in the kind of subservient role that was for so long the province of women, and I think that may be where my friend is coming from (whether she realizes it or not). I'm a feminist because I believe in equal rights, not greater rights and reparations or any other such nonsense. My friends views on the family are sounding like they're taking feminism too far. Family isn't just for women. It's for everyone -- men included. Just my (long-winded) opinion.

 

[TabulaRasa]

Well I agree in some aspects I don't agree in others. First of all, men want kids. I would say most men want kids. When they are mature enough.

Second, just because the woman gives birth doesn't mean she should have all the rights. To me biology isn't everything but, if you create a child together than both should have a part and say in the child's life. Unless one or the other is abusive, etc.

And how terrible to think you could terminate a life just because a man wants to be in the picture...their kids picture (life)?

 

[Lou]

She said that if she were to get pregnant tomorrow, she'd force the guy to sign away his rights.

I think this says a LOT more about the men your friend is dating than anything else! I mean, there are men you don't see yourself rocking on the porch at 90 with and people that you don't want to marry. But, to immediately know this would be horrible TOMORROW is a bit wonky and I think she should step up her game a bit.

I'd probably go with most men do NOT want a surprise pregnancy while not married. But, that's a far cry from they don't want kids. Or that they wouldn't come around. Most of the problem would be the same as your friend's, I'd guess...being trapped by some whacko who has different ideas than you do.

My son was a surprise. We'd be talking about getting married anyway...and I immediately demanded that all wedding talk halt right then. It seemed like a HORRIBLE time to be making decisions about anything bigger than what was for dinner. But, I did know we'd be okay and we could do it. But, I also knew what kind of guy he was.

But, I have friends were it's gone the other way. And I think your friend needs to look into the "rules of play" a little better. Chances are, if the guy doesn't WANT to be a father, you can always not put their name on the birth certificate. It can always be added later if Mr. Man wants to pull his life together. You can add it and he'll be supposed to send support. Someone who doesn't want to BE a Dad, may not send support, but they can then be sued. They aren't going to want to spend time with the baby.
But, it DOES leave it open so that when Junior asks someday...you're not the bad one who SHOVED his father out of his life.

But, your random dead-beat Dad who doesn't want to be a Dad also can't just haul you to court because he doesn't like the apartment you live in or the school you decide to put the kid in. All the judge will say is, "So? Where's your support checks?" If they are really crappy Dads, the courts will take care of everything for you.

Honestly, though, I couldn't imagine just taking the kids away from my husband's family, even if I woke up tomorrow and hated him. Our family, we have fun...but we're NUTS! Not only do I sometimes need a break, but the KIDS need more influence than just me. I don't agree with everything my in-laws think and do, but I DO know that they love my kids and it's a way to expose them to more than just me.

That being sad, it might not work with your friend because she just may have some control issues. : erm : She'd probably be better off NOT getting pregnant until she calms down anyway.

I DO think men deserve their rights. It really is what is best for the kids. And in the situations that it's NOT best the system does a good job of dealing with them. But, that's the situations where the mother IS sane and the father is NOT. Too many times, there is a crazy mom or both parents are plum nuts. And, not to be too harsh, but that kind of blackmail doesn't speak much to sanity. There are PLENTY of guys I know who would have been perfectly okay to deal with an unplanned pregnancy if it didn't involve being trapped into marriage and just paying child support and visits every other weekend.

And, I'm here to say that SOMETIMES it DOES work out. We've been married almost 8 years, we had another kid, and we even still like each other!

BTW--Slayer Comma The...I was the SAME WAY when I found out I was pregnant. I was freaking out and waving the stupid stick around and Hubby said, "Can you grab me a Coke while you're up?" And later asked me why I was so freaked! LOL!

Wanabee-slayer is the goddess of all that is pink and fluffy in the world

 

[Joyce Summers]

BTW--Slayer Comma The...I was the SAME WAY when I found out I was pregnant. I was freaking out and waving the stupid stick around and Hubby said, "Can you grab me a Coke while you're up?" And later asked me why I was so freaked! LOL!

I know- they're like the Island of Joyful Calm while we're the ones shaking them slapping them (whatever feels appropriate at the time....) going 'dont you get it??' haha. He did finally click about my minor panic in his own subtle way as he asked if I wanted a chocolate bar. :-| Not the most obvious fom of support I'll grant you.....



Anyway, back on topic, a few of you are saying that perhaps an option for her is just not put the Father's name on the Birth Certificate. Believe me this is a bad idea. And Terrible Things will happen later on.
I won't go into the issues I have with my own Father, but *he* had his very own soap opera like mid-life crisis when he found out his sister was not actually his sister, but was in fact his mother and the people he had believed for forty-odd years to be his parents were in fact his grandparents. And the identity of his Dad was unknown. He asked but the family refused to tell him (Because his family, in essence, are terrible and just people you *wouldn't* want to know. I take great relief in the fact that I take after my Mother's family.Phew haha)so my Dad went to get his birth certifcate. Alas, there was no name on record and he *still* doesn't know who his Father is. He has an entire family out there that he doesn't know the identity of and by extension, neither do I.
Okay, so the likelihood of that happening to a lot of people is low haha, but the point is still there. That at some time in every person's life they are going to want to know who their Father is (If it isn't previously know that is). It's natural. It's part of their identity, who they are and so they will feel a deep inner need to know. And to have it on a birth certifcate allows the child to look at a piece of paper and actually see where they came from written down. This is affirmation and also a way to find said person if they choose.

If this friend's final conclusion was not to involve the Father at all, his name should still be on the certifcate for the child's sake because later in life it's going to be *that* child's decision whether to find/involve the Dad and not the decision of the Mother.

Wow, I just talked all over you people there didn't I? Sorry, rant over.Haha

 

[palabravampiress]

Not as uncommon as you might think, having that missing link. My dad's biological mother died (suicide) when he was 2 years old. His stepmom raised him as her own. Subsequently, I was raised with her as my Grandma. I didn't know until I was 12. She's my Grandma; no questions asked. But because of the way my biological Grandma died, most of what was known of her has gone by the wayside -- especially since my Grandpa died (the same way). There's a whole big part of my family and of my medical history that I have never known, not to mention a whole big part of my family out there that thinks its my family, but isn't related by blood (most people don't know that my dad isn't really Grandma's kid).

I think the urge to know where you come from is natural, even if circumstances are such that you don't ever feel that anything is missing. I mean, I have a Grandma. I didn't miss out on being fussed over and taught to swim and talking about boys and stuff. But Slayer Comma The has a point about a kid growing up and wanting to know about his or her ancestry. I don't think families should cover that stuff up. Even when it is done with the best of intentions, it does deprive future generations of family and medical history that they may need or want.

 

[white avenger]

Oh, and that was another thing about my granddaughter's mother. Ricky had to INSIST that his name be put on the birth certificate, even going so far as to have blood tests to prove it before she would finally consent. (I'm tellin' you, folks, this b***h is pure chicken in the middle of the road CRAZY, not to mention vindictive as hell)

 

[palabravampiress]

Oh, and that was another thing about my granddaughter's mother. Ricky had to INSIST that his name be put on the birth certificate, even going so far as to have blood tests to prove it before she would finally consent. (I'm tellin' you, folks, this b***h is pure chicken in the middle of the road CRAZY, not to mention vindictive as hell)

What is her rationale?

 

[white avenger]

What is her rationale?

As I said in the first post, "She doesn't share HER children." Oh, she'll take the child support money, she just didn't want us to be a part of the baby's life. That way, if the time ever comes that she asks where her daddy is, the baby can be told, "All he ever did for you is send money, darling. I;m the one who loves you," Like I said, vindictive as hell. We've had to put up with that for 4 years now, and spent a small fortune on lawyer's fees. Ricky had to take her to court AND arbitration AND get a court order before he could even get the visitation rights enforced.

 

[Cordelia Chase*]

Well I WANT children! If I were to get a girl pregnant I would want to take full responsibility of the child. ANd I dont think its so much of men not wanting kids. Its just the thought having one scares them. If i was given the option to sign away my rights or the child be terminated I'd have to tell her to terminate it because I cant live through life knowing I have a child I cant see or get close to. It would crush me too much.

I really want to be a single father((because I'm bi and is currently into men)). I dont see why your friend thinks that all men will bail if a woman becomes pregnant. Maybe she knows people who have experienced it. I think some sort of counciling would help. Some kind of support group where she could talk about how she feels and get other women prospectives on the situation.

 

[Lou]

Anyway, back on topic, a few of you are saying that perhaps an option for her is just not put the Father's name on the Birth Certificate. Believe me this is a bad idea. And Terrible Things will happen later on.

While I'd agree this isn't the BEST option, neither is the option of sign away your rights or I'll terminate the pregnancy.

My Mother died right after having me and for some odd reason her entire family blew my Dad, me and my older sister off completely. Recently, my sister found my Aunt, but she doesn't even know our birthdays (mine you'd think she might remember) nor does she want to have contact other than sending me Urban Legend emails 2 times a year and our Grandfather doesn't even know our names.
Anyway, I have a mystery medical history. No one will tell me anything. But, I have a Mother. She married Dad when I was 16 months old. And I DO have a family and I have no need for the other people at all.

If we were dealing with a man who WANTED to be a father, he can FORCE his name on the birth certificate....like WA pointed out. It's not fun, but it can be done.
And in the case where a guy SHOULDN'T be on the certficate at the moment, drug use, abuse, random child molester....it may not be IDEAL but I bet the kid would like it more than termination of pregnancy.

There are adopted kids out there all the time who don't know their parents. Believe me, I'm not trying to downplay your point. I do agree, but there ARE worse things than not being able to trace your family tree.

The trick to ALL of this would be having a nice SANE mother. Someone who honestly wants what's best for their child.

And this is going to be tricky to explain, (and NOT a hit against your Grandfather, SCT) if the father of the baby really wanted to BE a Dad, chances are he'd have a clue about the baby and eventually step forward. Maybe not in the first 10 years, maybe not in the first 20. But, at some point he'd grow up and say, "HEY! Guess who I am." And if he doesn't, then you have to kind of assume you're better off. There IS the random episode of Cold Case where the guy wanted a baby and the mother never tells him and somehow cuts him off from knowing about the baby ever and her parents raise it, but it doesn't really happen that way often.

Besides, part of your Dad's problem would really be that his family won't TELL him who his Dad is. Sure, I don't have half a medical history, but my REAL problem is my birth Mother's side of the family is TOTALLY WHACKO and couldn't care less about us or to give us any hints about our lives. I feel quite content with my medical history mystery if it means not having to deal with them AT ALL.

Wanabee-slayer is the goddess of all that is pink and fluffy in the world

 

[StuckinTraffic]

I really want to be a single father((because I'm bi and is currently into men)).

Why does your being currently in to men automatically negate the idea of having a family? Same sex couples have kids all the time, and I think that's a good thing. As someone above said, a kid needs more influence in their life that just one parent. Sure, they'll learn basic social skills from everyone they come in contact with; friends, teachers, extended family members....but the earliest education a child receives comes from the home. I know that the two-parent family is quickly becoming the exception, rather than the rule, but I still think that whenever it's possible, children should be provided the opportunity to have TWO parents.

 

[Randy Giles]

I love children. Love 'em. I would never, ever even DATE a girl who wasn't a fan of kids and said she didn't want any, and if a girl got pregnant by me I'd want my paternal rights. If she wanted an abortion I'd do everything I could to stop her, if she didn't want it she could give it to me.

palebra, I don't think I'd like your friend at all, she sounds horrible. *shrug*

 

[StuckinTraffic]

palebra, I don't think I'd like your friend at all, she sounds horrible. *shrug*

That's too bad, I think she needs a good boyfriend, as I'm sure you'd be.....

Speaking of which, I have a good friend (she's a Jake friend, but don't hold that against her, LOL!) I'd like you to meet! She lives in Memphis.....!

 

[Joyce Summers]

While I'd agree this isn't the BEST option, neither is the option of sign away your rights or I'll terminate the pregnancy.

My Mother died right after having me and for some odd reason her entire family blew my Dad, me and my older sister off completely. Recently, my sister found my Aunt, but she doesn't even know our birthdays (mine you'd think she might remember) nor does she want to have contact other than sending me Urban Legend emails 2 times a year and our Grandfather doesn't even know our names.
Anyway, I have a mystery medical history. No one will tell me anything. But, I have a Mother. She married Dad when I was 16 months old. And I DO have a family and I have no need for the other people at all.

If we were dealing with a man who WANTED to be a father, he can FORCE his name on the birth certificate....like WA pointed out. It's not fun, but it can be done.
And in the case where a guy SHOULDN'T be on the certficate at the moment, drug use, abuse, random child molester....it may not be IDEAL but I bet the kid would like it more than termination of pregnancy.

There are adopted kids out there all the time who don't know their parents. Believe me, I'm not trying to downplay your point. I do agree, but there ARE worse things than not being able to trace your family tree.

The trick to ALL of this would be having a nice SANE mother. Someone who honestly wants what's best for their child.

And this is going to be tricky to explain, (and NOT a hit against your Grandfather, SCT) if the father of the baby really wanted to BE a Dad, chances are he'd have a clue about the baby and eventually step forward. Maybe not in the first 10 years, maybe not in the first 20. But, at some point he'd grow up and say, "HEY! Guess who I am." And if he doesn't, then you have to kind of assume you're better off. There IS the random episode of Cold Case where the guy wanted a baby and the mother never tells him and somehow cuts him off from knowing about the baby ever and her parents raise it, but it doesn't really happen that way often.

Besides, part of your Dad's problem would really be that his family won't TELL him who his Dad is. Sure, I don't have half a medical history, but my REAL problem is my birth Mother's side of the family is TOTALLY WHACKO and couldn't care less about us or to give us any hints about our lives. I feel quite content with my medical history mystery if it means not having to deal with them AT ALL.

Wanabee-slayer is the goddess of all that is pink and fluffy in the world

Whoa. That was a lot.

Just in case there was a crossed wires thing here- I wasn't saying that termination was a better option than not putting the Father's name on the certificate, I just meant not putting it down is a bad idea, full stop. I totally disagree with the blackmail termination concept as well. In fact, I find it to be pretty twisted.

I think that's terrible about that side of the family completely blowing you off and I totally understand that situation as a similar thing happened to my Dad's family. When my Mom and Dad got divorced my Dad's family decided we *weren't* family anymore. My cousin didn't even know I existed till recently and she contacted me and we were apparently always referred to as 'Arlington Avenue' rather than our actual names. But I am not really bothered by this, because like you, I view that side of the family to be just nuts and not worth knowing.

My point about wanting to know who are by finding your biological parents is not only an identity thing- because even people from happy adoptive families sometimes like to find their roots if only to say, no my family is the one that raised me- but for health reasons. The medical side of thing is an issue for me, because it generally annoys me the fact that when the doctor asks 'have any of the previous two generation suffered from these list of cancers/illnesses' I can't really say.

But I do agree with you that the important thing is to have sane loving parents whether they are both your parents or even biologically your parents at all. (I mean I didn't mind my own Dad not being there at all. I was perfectly happy being raised by my Mom and my Grandmom. It was like two Moms except Grandmom was one that never said no...teeheehee)I think what I was saying was that if they don't put the name on the certifcate the Mother should at least be prepared to give the name should the child ever ask it in the future, as I believe withholding that information is selfish. Unless, as we've all already covered, the father was dangerous.

And I don't think you *can* knock a grandfather I don't know, haha. But from what I've gathered (I actually went all under-covery and interrogation-y at the age of 17 to try and find out the whole sitch) my grandfather, whoever he may be, never even got informed that my grandmother was pregnant with his child. She hid it from her own family until the final few months and had broken up with the man months and months before that and he had since moved away. So I don't think he can do the 'Guess who I am!' thing (Although that actually happening *would* have a distinctly amusing side to it....) And OMG i've just read your reference to a Cold Case episode and OMG- That's exactly what the situation was! Dear god!!! (There's a leak in that side of the family! They're making money from the story!!!) Seriously though, that's *exactly* what happened. Except I don't know whether the guy actually wanted a baby...because, well, I don't know him to ask him. Haha.