Political Correctness

[randiann]

Ok so I just read the lady gaga thread, and didn't want to derail the topic anymore, so I thought I'd start a new thread based on the discussion over acceptable terms for different minorities and the whole "parade"issue, and also cause I want to hear more about this whole "reclamation" idea and how language affects how we identify and classify ourselves.


So how far do we need to push ourselves as a culture to be pc? I think it was zobo who stated (s)he thinks anything but the term "gay people" is unacceptable when speaking about, well, gay people. This issue comes up with race too. Some Black people prefer to be called black, and others think the term is derogatory and prefer African American. Some Native Americans prefer this term, and some (especially some of our elders) prefer Indian because that's what they are used to. Others like the term indigenous, our only want to be called by their tribal affiliation (nationality if you will). At the same time, we have mascots in our schools and sports teams called the chiefs, redskins, warriors, and savages. Lots of natives find these offensive, and others don't.

The issue of reclamation of derogatory names in particular caught my eye. The N word in particular is a personal peeve of mine. I'm not Black, and I don't use it. But I find it offensive when anyone does, even Black people. I happened to be going through some of my papers earlier today, and found an article about decolinazation (this gets relevant soon). Decolinazation (nutshell version) is the ideology that Natives should shirk the colonized lifestyle imposed on us for the last couple hundred years, embrace our culture, and live within our Native identity, and to not be ashamed our ignorant of our heritage. In this article, it discusses briefly the term squaw and how this is a slur imposed on Native women by outsiders and how we should toss the term away and refuse to use it. I could personally never see myself "reclaiming" this word because to me it is way too offensive. What are your takes on the idea of reclaiming words like this?

The final issue brought up was gay pride parades. I, for one, think if you were to tone them down, you'd be better off just abolishing them altogether. The point of a parade is to showcase your differences and celebrate them. Natives don't have a Red Earth parade and festival in Oklahoma City every year to show how similar we are to the general population. We do it to showcase our dancers, people, and culture. That's the point and pageantry of a parade, regardless of the culture. You go to celebrate your differences. Just my two cents.
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[Professor Walsh]

Now, to me who's not a native English speaker and has never visited America, "squaw" has right up to this thread been merely a word to me. I always thought it meant "wife", in a neutral way. (Actually, I suppose the first association I have, is that we did not acquire a pony named so some twenty years ago.) You tickled my curiosity, can you tell me more about how it's been used? (I could go on a googling trip, of course, but I ought to go to bed. Now.)

 

[randiann]

Its actually a derrogatory word referring to female genetalia. It's similar to calling a woman the C word.
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[Kean]

Personally, I am all for decolonisation. In fact, coming from a colonised nation where the effects are still very much felt to this day (the fact that I am typing this post in English and it is my first language, is testament to the lasting effects of colonisation).

I believe in the reclamation of names/slurs/words to a certain point. I think it can be a very important and very positive thing for a marginalised people to take back the power of a word. However, I also believe that once that word has been reclaimed that it should be laid to rest and not used any longer.

In terms of actual words that apply to me and my race, the only one that I find insulting is "Mick". If someone uses that word to describe me I will take exception to it because it has only ever really been used as a derogatory term. As far as reclamation goes, I would like to see the word put to rest but I never, in month of Sundays, use it to describe myself or my friends. I certainly would not feel empowered by it.

 

[goodbyetonight]

I think the world is way too PC, and people get offended way too easily these days. People just take themselves way too seriously. My friends and I refer to each other as every slur you can think of, and we think it's hilarious. Call me a bitca (cwutididthar?) if you want, I don't care. It's not like it isn't true, lol. Actually, this Tumblr post I just saw pretty much sums up my feelings on the subject:

"“Whats wrong with being offended? When did sticks and stones stop being relevant? Isn’t that what we teach children for f’s sake?

Now you have adults going “I was offended! I was offended and I have rights!!” Well, so what? Be offended. Nothing happens. You’re an adult; grow up, deal with it.

“But I was offended!” I dont care. Nothing happens when you’re “offended.” “I went to the comedy show and the comedian said something, and I was — offended! — and when I woke up in the morning, I had leprosy! … No, nothing happens.

“‘I want to live in free society but I never want to be offended again!” Well… then you’re an idiot.

” — Steven Hughes, Comedy Cuts (2009)

 

[prophecygrrl]

Reclamation isn't for everybody, and I imagine for certain slurs in their respective contexts and connotations (like "squaw", for instance) it's impossible to feel comfortable reclaiming it. Some people may want to, and others won't. And that's fine.

So how far do we need to push ourselves as a culture to be pc? I think it was zobo who stated (s)he thinks anything but the term "gay people" is unacceptable when speaking about, well, gay people. This issue comes up with race too. Some Black people prefer to be called black, and others think the term is derogatory and prefer African American. Some Native Americans prefer this term, and some (especially some of our elders) prefer Indian because that's what they are used to. Others like the term indigenous, our only want to be called by their tribal affiliation (nationality if you will). At the same time, we have mascots in our schools and sports teams called the chiefs, redskins, warriors, and savages. Lots of natives find these offensive, and others don't.

I think these examples speak more to the diversity of opinion in a community than how offensive something truly is. For example, going back to the Lady Gaga song, I was offended (okay, maybe more incredibly amused than anything else- how can someone so famous be so ignorant?) by her use of the word "Orient". It's not like I'm not up in arms about it or anything, but the point is I saw a problem with it. I'm Asian, and when I brought it up among my Asian friends, they just shrugged. They didn't care at all. Sometimes it's easier to let things go, and sometimes people just don't have the energy to care. But the fact that they didn't find it offensive doesn't necessarily make my feelings on it any less valid. At the same time, just because they're not offended by it doesn't mean that they're wrong not to be. We all have our own thoughts, and mine doesn't invalidate theirs and vice versa.

My take on offensive jokes/remarks is probably best summarized by this quotation:

The problem with sexist, racist, homophobic, transphobic, classist, ableist, etc., remarks and “jokes” is not that they’re offensive, but that by relying for their meaning on harmful cultural narratives about privileged and marginalized groups they reinforce those narratives, and the stronger those narratives are, the stronger the implicit biases with which people are indoctrinated are. That’s real harm, not just “offense."
- I Don’t Care If You’re Offended by Scott Madin

^Lol, that's mostly why when I talk about political correctness, I actually prefer to say "social responsibility". (I know- a PC term about being PC? Wrap your head around that! 😛) Political correctness, to me, implies that, well, it's a political stance. As if it's hiding some "truth" we're all just afraid to confront, and it's not. It's just about not harming people with your language and the things you choose to do, and that's something I think should be respected, if not also practiced.

 

[BuffyElevated]

I think the world is way too PC, and people get offended way too easily these days. People just take themselves way too seriously. My friends and I refer to each other as every slur you can think of, and we think it's hilarious. Call me a bitca (cwutididthar?) if you want, I don't care. It's not like it isn't true, lol. Actually, this Tumblr post I just saw pretty much sums up my feelings on the subject:

""Whats wrong with being offended? When did sticks and stones stop being relevant? Isn't that what we teach children for f's sake?

Now you have adults going "I was offended! I was offended and I have rights!!" Well, so what? Be offended. Nothing happens. You're an adult; grow up, deal with it.

"But I was offended!" I dont care. Nothing happens when you're "offended." "I went to the comedy show and the comedian said something, and I was "” offended! "” and when I woke up in the morning, I had leprosy! "¦ No, nothing happens.

""˜I want to live in free society but I never want to be offended again!" Well"¦ then you're an idiot.

" "” Steven Hughes, Comedy Cuts (2009)

You took the words right out of my mouth. People are people, and we all have different opinions so guess what? You're going to be offended now and then. People who get all up in the air over small things get on my nerves really badly. I can't stand when people insist on being called _____-American (African, Asian, Irish, whatever). If you're a citizen of the US, we're all just AMERICANS. There doesn't need to be a hypenate attached.
And then of course you have people who claim that you should change your culture to accomodate them. Our culture here in the US is ever-evolving, and that is good, but I don't agree that we as people should have to bow down to accomodate everyone around us... Yes everyone deserves equal rights and respect, but it's also a very disrespectful thing to go to a place and expect them to cater to you as if you're above everyone else, you know?

 

[arabella]

Words have power. With our thoughts we create our world. The way that we think is intimately entwined with the way we use language and for that matter the language used in our surroundings.

I don't think that we ought to cater to others because it is politically correct. I think that we each ought to guard our tongues because we ought to guard our thoughts. Be kind to one another. Be mindful of what you are putting out into the world and what you allow others to put into you.

Political correctness, to me, is a forced attempt at addressing a greater need of simple human kindness and empathy.
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[randiann]

You took the words right out of my mouth. People are people, and we all have different opinions so guess what? You're going to be offended now and then. People who get all up in the air over small things get on my nerves really badly. I can't stand when people insist on being called _____-American (African, Asian, Irish, whatever). If you're a citizen of the US, we're all just AMERICANS. There doesn't need to be a hypenate attached.
And then of course you have people who claim that you should change your culture to accomodate them. Our culture here in the US is ever-evolving, and that is good, but I don't agree that we as people should have to bow down to accomodate everyone around us... Yes everyone deserves equal rights and respect, but it's also a very disrespectful thing to go to a place and expect them to cater to you as if you're above everyone else, you know?

But isn't there a line? Isn't there a point where it's not asking for special treatment, but just NORMAL treatment. Let's go back to the mascot issue (cause, for me, this IS a big issue). Yes, in certain ways it is trivial to harp over a team's name. But is it okay for a team to be called "redskins" in the first place with a stereotypical Indian warrior as their mascot? That's not culture. That's berating a culture. I think this little cartoon about the Mascot Issue sums it up fairly well. How would you feel if a whole society took your heritage and your culture, and turned it into a caricature?

From This Blog

I believe this is an issue having to deal with the deep seated social barriers that Native Americans face. In my other blog posts, I've written about how Natives are ignored, pushed to the side, and generally not cared for by the federal government. They are the least vocal and least visible of all the minorities, and are treated poorly almost nation-wide. Like I wrote before, if a sports team had a mascot that was a man in black face and dancing around circa 1910, there would be serious problems in the media. If a sports team had an Asian man with a rice paddy hat and railroad tools circa 1850, there would also be problems. If a sports team had a "white trash" man wearing a tank top and beating his wife or smoking methamphetamine as a mascot, the local residents would undoubtedly be offended. Contrarily, a "redskin" wearing culturally inaccurate head dresses and smoking a peace pipe causes few issues. Why?

So, is it asking others to cater to you just to ask them to not ridicule you? There's a huge difference between me calling my Asian friend a Chink, and her calling me an Apple (a derrogatory term for someone who is White/Native) then for us to be calling strangers these things.

 

[prophecygrrl]

But isn't there a line? Isn't there a point where it's not asking for special treatment, but just NORMAL treatment.

I agree that there's a line. I think our culture has evolved to the point where cruel language and insensitivity is the norm, and that's a problem. Changing some of the words you use and refraining from doing things that hurt people is an act of decency, not special treatment.

Yes, in certain ways it is trivial to harp over a team's name. But is it okay for a team to be called "redskins" in the first place with a stereotypical Indian warrior as their mascot? That's not culture. That's berating a culture. I think this little cartoon about the Mascot Issue sums it up fairly well. How would you feel if a whole society took your heritage and your culture, and turned it into a caricature?

The issue of using stereotypical Native Americans as mascots makes me sick...it's so clearly racist I don't see how anyone could defend it. It shouldn't matter if it's a "small" thing or if it's not meant to be racist- the fact is, it's hurtful and disgusting to appropriate a culture like that, no matter how "harmless" one thinks the intentions behind it are.

 

[Ianigsy]

I think part of the problem is that well-meaning white liberals can do as much damage by marching in and trying to whitewash over history. What tends to happen is that in an attempt to build bridges, somebody goes to a member of the community they're trying to reconnect with and asks them how they'd like to be described and so on. Unfortunately what they tend to overlook is that one person isn't qualified to speak for a racial group or a nationality and don't account for differences of opinion in that group. If you tried to categorise the black population of Britain as "African-British", it wouldn't work because a large part of our black populace is made up of first and second generation West Indian migrants who are just getting comfortable with their identity as Britons of West Indian extraction without bringing Africa into it.

The term "Indian" to describe the indigenous inhabitants of the Americas is inaccurate and out of date- but in some ways it deserves to keep a small amount of its currency as a reminder of just how badly European colonists misunderstood the people and countries they encountered elsewhere in the world. I'm guessing that it will always exist in the history of the relationship between the original inhabitants and Europeans, because of the language used in historical accounts, laws and so on.

 

[Professor Walsh]

I am trying to imagine a Norwegian football team having mascot that's a caricature of the Sami culture. That would cause an absolute uproar, both among the Sami populations and the general Norwegian public. I can see why people are fond of old traditions like the mascots, but sometimes traditions just have to change. When I was a kid, caramel food colouring was marketed under the brand name "Negro" here. I'm sure a lot of people felt nostalgic about that at first, but the world ain't static. What's acceptable changes.

 

[zobothehobo]

We should all be able to pick what terminology we'd like to use for our master statuses. If I like to be called a gay person rather than a lesbian or a gay or whatever... then I should get to decide that. If someone wants to be called an African American they should be able to decide that. If someone wants to be called black or a lesbian or whatever they should be able to decide that. In my opinion, there should be certain terms for master status that are generally used for the public and if someone would like to be called something different from that, they let you know. I don't think that's being too PC. I think that's being conscienceless of other people. This is an extreme example but everyone should be able to get it... if someone decided they wanted to call all women "bitches" and the term "bitch" to them didn't mean all the negative stuff it means to us... but rather the term "bitch" just meant women. Would you think it was acceptable for them to go around doing that? Say this person was a woman. Would you think it was acceptable now that you know a woman does it? Now what if you called her a woman and she said "I prefer to be called a bitch. To me, that word has no negative connotation, it just means woman, but I prefer it." It would ONLY THEN be acceptable to call the woman a bitch... using bitch as a synonym for woman. But calling any other woman a bitch like that is still wrong. Make sense?

 

[Blondie Bear]

We should all be able to pick what terminology we'd like to use for our master statuses. If I like to be called a gay person rather than a lesbian or a gay or whatever... then I should get to decide that. If someone wants to be called an African American they should be able to decide that. If someone wants to be called black or a lesbian or whatever they should be able to decide that. In my opinion, there should be certain terms for master status that are generally used for the public and if someone would like to be called something different from that, they let you know. I don't think that's being too PC. I think that's being conscienceless of other people. This is an extreme example but everyone should be able to get it... if someone decided they wanted to call all women "bitches" and the term "bitch" to them didn't mean all the negative stuff it means to us... but rather the term "bitch" just meant women. Would you think it was acceptable for them to go around doing that? Say this person was a woman. Would you think it was acceptable now that you know a woman does it? Now what if you called her a woman and she said "I prefer to be called a bitch. To me, that word has no negative connotation, it just means woman, but I prefer it." It would ONLY THEN be acceptable to call the woman a bitch... using bitch as a synonym for woman. But calling any other woman a bitch like that is still wrong. Make sense?

The issue here is the people who assume you KNOW what they prefer to be called and flip ape the first time you encounter them and don't call them by their preferred term. Heck, this happens with the "master status," as you call it, already, as what groups of people are supposed to be called changes every couple of years. I have no idea what the polite term for African-Americans is right now. When I was younger, "black" was fine, then it was "we don't say black. We say African-American." For awhile I heard "Afro-American" (and "Amerindian"), and now I have no clue. I just try to describe people not using their race as an identifier to avoid the whole issue.

 

[NY State of Mind]

i'm so un politically correct lol....I use the N-Word you despise and Spic all the time to refer to myself and others...and don't care if someone else uses it depending on the tone they say it in. Along with saying a bunch of other things that might get some other people riled up so i'll leave it at that lol

 

[randiann]

Just curious though NY, would you be offended then if Clint Eastwood came up to you asking what the heck are you doing, you spook/gook/wetback etc. etc. ala gran torino style? Theres a big difference using language between friends and strangers. I call one of my good friends a beaner on occasion teasing him, but it'd be way different if I went up to someone I didn't know and called them that.

And I agree blondie, people shouldn't take offense if you are trying to be respectful, but it it's such a touchy subject to some that it becomes a defense mechanism I think. Some people are hypersensitive to the race issue that they feel the need to lash out and make accusations even when you haven't done anything wrong or really offensive.

I don't know, I find the whole subject fascinating though....
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[NY State of Mind]

Just curious though NY, would you be offended then if Clint Eastwood came up to you asking what the heck are you doing, you spook/gook/wetback etc. etc. ala gran torino style? Theres a big difference using language between friends and strangers. I call one of my good friends a beaner on occasion teasing him, but it'd be way different if I went up to someone I didn't know and called them that.

And I agree blondie, people shouldn't take offense if you are trying to be respectful, but it it's such a touchy subject to some that it becomes a defense mechanism I think. Some people are hypersensitive to the race issue that they feel the need to lash out and make accusations even when you haven't done anything wrong or really offensive.

I don't know, I find the whole subject fascinating though....
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Which is why I said depending on the speaking tone of the person....but Clint Eastwood personally could do it, cause that would be hilarious to me lol...I love Gran Torino and his past flicks. But yeah just some regular dude doing it would get on my nerves most likely but I still usually brush it off. I try not to use violence against ignorance unless it's a must.

 

[Crazy Flakes]

To those of you talking about how you hate how "everyone is so PC lol," I sincerely hope no one ever calls you a slur in a derogatory manner.

It wasn't funny when my paternal uncle called my Jewish mother the k-word before his family disowned her. It wasn't funny when my friend had to transfer out of school after she came out because she was constantly referred to as the f-word, only to be met by similar abuse when she returned. It's not funny watching my friends cry because people call them gendered insults and it's certainly not funny when their boyfriends use them as a method of verbal abuse. These words MEAN something - they're tools meant to marginalize people and they stick with you because there's absolutely nothing you can do about them.

I understand that context is key and you can call me a member of the PC Police as much as you want, but I'll tell you right now that if I hear a straight man using gendered insults, a white person using racial slurs, a straight person using the f-word (and I don't mean ****), or anyone doing anything of that nature, I will inevitably lose respect for them.

 

[MergedLoki]

Without going in about 10000 examples for specifics. In general people are WAY to sensitive these days.

To the point that feelings are more important than facts.

A good example of this is think of the amount of time's someone asks your thoughts or opinion on something (could be some world issue or something simple like your thoughts on their new bf/gf or whatever). and if you're honest and your opinion doesn't bolster their OWN idea of whatever the question was you are 'being mean/cruel/offensive'

If someone asks me my thoughts on an issue i'll give them MY thoughts. I'm not going to be a speaking mirror for someone and just agree with whatever they say (or say what they want to hear).

 

[prophecygrrl]

To those of you talking about how you hate how "everyone is so PC lol," I sincerely hope no one ever calls you a slur in a derogatory manner.

It wasn't funny when my paternal uncle called my Jewish mother the k-word before his family disowned her. It wasn't funny when my friend had to transfer out of school after she came out because she was constantly referred to as the f-word, only to be met by similar abuse when she returned. It's not funny watching my friends cry because people call them gendered insults and it's certainly not funny when their boyfriends use them as a method of verbal abuse. These words MEAN something - they're tools meant to marginalize people and they stick with you because there's absolutely nothing you can do about them.

I understand that context is key and you can call me a member of the PC Police as much as you want, but I'll tell you right now that if I hear a straight man using gendered insults, a white person using racial slurs, a straight person using the f-word (and I don't mean ****), or anyone doing anything of that nature, I will inevitably lose respect for them.

These are generally my thoughts on being PC too. I do agree that context matters though, and so using/reappropriating slurs within a distinct community is very different from using slurs derogatorily or in an oppressive context.

----
It's very easy to trivialize political correctness as simply 'taking things too seriously' or being "oversensitive".
But if it's easy for you [general 'you'] to do that, consider all the people who don't have the privilege of brushing aside bigoted or ignorant remarks as simply "politically incorrect". We internalize meanings of certain words, and they probably mean more to us than they should sometimes, but the fact is that they still mean something. The words you choose matter to somebody, so even if you find "PC" language inconvenient, using language with any kind of "-ism" attached is much, much worse, IMO.