Question Political Spectrum

VisionGirl agrees: So do you agree with civil unions for all then? Because I definitely kind of see that point.
In what I'd consider a perfect world, the state wouldn't classify any relationship as acknowledged or not, and there would be no legal issues of any kind involved in making or dissolving relationship commitments; I see that as an area that should remain strictly the private matter of the partners, themselves, with the state keeping utterly out of it, and church/religion only entering the picture if the partners should choose them to become involved. So, "hardlining" my argument, I'd even be against civil unions.

I see, though, that the legal system currently requires some way of categorizing family/kinship, so I could live with civil unions for all (with a bit of teeth-gnawing involved on my acceptance 😛); to me, that's still a big deal better than the state recognizing marriage.
 
Kana
Kana
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Username
Username
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Ok, I only have a few more points, and I'm just going to say them generally rather than quote all the bits I'm responding to from different people, cause I just got up and that's beyond me at the moment. Then I'm going to duck out of this one. I hope if someone takes issue with something I've said, they can make sure they've read all of my posts, because I think we've covered this quite thoroughly!

The reason I put the right to life above any other right is because of its fundamental nature as an absolute. Quality of life is a variable. Who are we to say what happens when you die? All we know is that there's no coming back. A person might be brought up horribly, they might live an awful life, but I still think that is preferable to taking the choice away from them. (I'd like to say, I am for assisted suicide, within very strictly defined legal terms. But that's another debate that I am so not getting into.) Where the foetus cannot give informed consent, I find it impossible to say that I know best. Many people have awful childhoods, but go on to make a happy, full life for themself. And many people who have two loving parents who can afford to look after them go on to completely throw their life away. To say that a child deserves a certain quality of life is admirable, but to say that the child would be better off dead is just a non-argument to me.

Secondly, criminalised miscarriage is just crazy. I'm not sure what the legality of abortion is in said state, and I can see the reasoning for criminalising attempts at abortion outside a legal system. The problem - like with pre-natal negligence or abuse - is that it's kind of impossible to know the woman's intent. This seems far too open for abuse. What's to stop a man beating a pregnant woman and trying to bring her down by claiming she asked him for an abortion. Crazy. It's hard enough for women to report domestic abuse etc.

I understand the problems with healthcare for children born with birth defects, but I'm sorry. That just doesn't fly. A child could be born completely healthy and fall ill with something completely debilitating. We would never say at this point that it'd be better to just let them die. (Unless they rely completely on life support, or DNR.) Why does it make a difference if we know it's going to happen before the child is born? Why the arbitrary distinction?

Finally, just want to say again to be absolutely clear. I am not saying that abortion should be made illegal right now and that solves everything. I'm saying that there is a fundamental problem with the very concept of abortion, and that we should be doing everything we can to reduce the need for it. There should be healthcare available, there should be proper education and counselling for people in this situation. But there also should be a proper recognition of the fact that a foetus is a person, and that any legal fiction that says otherwise is merely that - a practical, arbitrary fiction to allow the legal system to operate.

Ok, I think that's everything. I'm out. I really hope I haven't offended anyone, and I hope you can all see that sexism and misogyny is not where my argument is coming from at all. Thank you for all being so civil and thorough. 🙂
 
Joan the Vampire Slayer
Joan the Vampire Slayer
Your banner is great!
Tome
Tome
Lol at the banner!
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mayfever
I agree with what you said about the kid being "better off dead" as a non issue (Jesus H, my grammar. Sorry).
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prophecygrrl
Nice talking with you! I'm glad we were able to have a civil discussion on abortion, on the internet of all places, lol. :)
when choosing a-level subjects the Politics teacher told me i didnt have enough sense for the course and to choose maths and science subjects instead so im not sure my contribution to this thread will be very good but here goes

as for my beliefs im very pro-life so against abortion (except when mothers life is at risk), anti gun, anti death penalty etc. i also very insitent on humans rights and choice and stuff (though i know that contradicts slightly with the abortion thing) so pro stuff like gay marriage, anti descrimination, sexism, racism etc.

currently angry at uk government as university fees have been basically tripled when one of the two parties in the co-allition government promised to protect them

as for a political party though im not old enough to vote i chose labour in our schools mock election because reds my favourite colour 😛
 
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Spikefan31
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I agree with most of what you said, except in the third paragraph I think you're heading towards slightly dangerous territory. Don't get me wrong, I still agree it's the mother's choice, but do you really think money should be the decisive factor whether a disabled child should live or die?

I know it's different in America, where you don't have the same social net as we do in (most of) Europe, but to me, this seems like a very weighty argument in favour of universal health care, so that a mother doesn't need to abort a wanted but disabled child because she can't afford the medical care.

Mm, I should clarify.

First off, I don't think a fetus is a person. To me, it is not yet a child. A fetus in the womb with birth defects or disabiilities is not the same thing as a disabled child who has already been born, in my opinion. I was not advocating treating disabled children as liabilities.

Disregarding my views on possible personhood for a moment, I was not saying that money should be a decisive factor, nor that it's a fair or reasonable one.
I was saying that very simply, poverty and/or lack of access to healthcare is a reality that people face. It's not my place or the law's place to judge that. Many people have to make that choice between a wanted child and termination because they would be unable to support a disabled child. My sympathy is with them, not my judgment. Not having enough money shouldn't be such an issue in the first place when it comes to healthcare, but it is.

BTW, If you've read my original post on this thread, you can see I'm a pretty liberal gal. I love the idea of universal healthcare, but in the U.S. at least, for now that's all it is- an idea. I can't even say for sure that it's considered a goal. In mainstream politics and mostly conservative/libertarian circles here, universal healthcare is still a dirty phrase for some reason.
I wasn't specifically trying to make a case for universal healthcare, so that's probably just my liberal side inevitably coming out, lol. My main point is that not all people who choose abortion do it because the pregnancy/future child is not wanted. Very few people, if faced with that choice, do it for selfish reasons. While there are many instances in which disabled children are fully functioning, happy, and not suffering, it's presumptuous to say that the parents' concern in aborting a fetus with disabilities is for their own convenience when for very many people, taking proper care of that child is not in their capacity. For anti-abortionists to imply that choosing abortion for a fetus with disabilities/birth defects is about a lack of compassion? When for a lot of people that child is wanted and making that decision is probably one of the hardest ones they could ever make? That's just cruel, not to mention extremely judgmental.
 
X
xfivebyfive
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It's nice to see so many fellow left wingers here. I'm very, very far left, and pretty much have always been.

It's interesting to see so many pro-lifers here. That's not a judgment call, it's just interesting.
 
i'm extremely liberal... no clue what that translates to for american politics lol

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