Spoiler! Preview for BTVS S10 Issue #20

[EVIL UU]

...And now we're being told something else entirely- not that Buffy doesn't know what she wants, but that she consciously rejects things before they get serious. I don't think you can have both, and could I have an example of that latter one 'cause I don't buy it. This actually doesn't bother me that much (ever though I've written scads) but I'd like some character consistency- it really the only thing Buffy's going for it this season- the characters do sound/feel like the characters (who occassionally say stupid stuff but whatever) so why are they saying this? What are the writers actually trying to tell us?

They're trying to tell us that Spike doesn't really know Buffy. Dowling doesn't know Buffy - he can guess, deduce and spew bullshit as much as he wants to but that doesn't mean anything because he's just a minor character introduced in season 9 and yet Spike agrees with him. It's not exactly surprising, considering the sheer amount of nonsense captain peroxide has told us about Buffy over the years.

Truly romantic.

Well, it's not like it's ever been a love story, regardless of how much Spike wants it to be. You know, sometimes I kinda feel sorry for that wanker.

 

[NothingVentured]

The fact that she didn't look for him was odd, because after S7, she would have; still, she had him in her mind. But S8 had a plot where Spuffy really didn't fit - the story that Joss created - while on drugs, apparently - was about something very different from what had been told on the past 7 seasons of BtVS. It was about Twilight.

I agree. But it exists and you can't just unexist it. I'd be the first to say Buffy's reactions to Spike in S8/S9 were nothing short of bizarre, but they're there on the page.

When Spike returned to Earth after his little adventure on space, she asked if he had come to stay; later, she called him to help her, and when he decided to leave, she asked him to stay. Buffy has never cut Spike from her life for good. Never.

She spent a good bit of time insulting him. It was S4 levels. S10 Spuffy might have made some semblance of sense post S7, but not after 8/9.

So, no, no “transformation”. Spike finally stayed in San Francisco, and they started working together on a daily basis; they were two people that have known each other for years, and, for the first time, both were at a good moment of their lives and enjoyed to be with each other. They being together didn't come from nowhere.

Spike has been back in SF for... Well, issue 40 is 6 months after Spike leaves, I believe. He comes back after 2 months. She he'd have been back from 4 months and she's still cold.

Spike said that he didn't want to live in the crypt because it remembered him what he used to be, not only because of the AR.

Really? I don't remember it, but even so nothing bad ever happened at his crypt.

Like she did with Holden Webster? Sometimes Buffy opens up to people she doesn't know that well instead of her friends. In general I think, from what we're shown, it was a non-event really.

Holden was a stranger and a vampire she knew she was going to kill. Hardly the same as a potential dating prospect. Mostly I think the comment is yet another person speaking for either Spike or Buffy.

And yes, I don't know where Joss gets 'uncomfortable' from, unless he considers 'couldn't have sex with her attempted rapist' as 'uncomfortable.'

Also so far she has been anything but uncomfortable.

 

[thetopher]

They're trying to tell us that Spike doesn't really know Buffy. Dowling doesn't know Buffy - he can guess, deduce and spew bullshit as much as he wants to but that doesn't mean anything because he's just a minor character introduced in season 9 and yet Spike agrees with him. It's not exactly surprising, considering the sheer amount of nonsense captain peroxide has told us about Buffy over the years.

Good point. For a while Spike was the 'truth-teller', the outsider that could see things as they are (Anya maintained most of that during her tenure) but imo he stopped being that a long time ago and now mainly spews bullshit (most of S7 for example) that he thinks is true - he's the love interest, the insider (insert pun here) and yet he still doesn't really know Buffy at all.

Holden was a stranger and a vampire she knew she was going to kill. Hardly the same as a potential dating prospect.

That's true- Holden was truth without the consequence. I guess Buffy thought the same about Dowling ultimately. Just browsing but not invested.

Also so far she has been anything but uncomfortable.

Too comfy really. Some of us are falling asleep because of all the comfy boredom of this relationship. Where did all the S9 angst stuff go? Answer- a different writer who is listening to a certain fanbase replaced a writer who wasn't.

 

[gite63]

Except for the whole 'Spike has a soul now' thing...but yeah in terms of Buffy I would agree- its like the cookie dough/content with herself thing never happened because of 'drama'.

Or... the whole cookie dough was just to appease Angel before send him away. 😀

I always think its all muddled up because Spike is saying he 'got a soul for her' time and again and then Buffy is wailing 'he has a soul now' to everybody.

The one who made having a soul a big deal was Joss Whedon, Buffy was just voicing the mantra.

Well, it's not like it's ever been a love story, regardless of how much Spike wants it to be. You know, sometimes I kinda feel sorry for that wanker.

You don't need to be sorry for us, I guarantee. Even if it ends badly (as it always happens in the Buffyverse), we all have followed a compelling love story that was way more complex and beautiful than any other on the show. 😎

I agree. But it exists and you can't just unexist it. I'd be the first to say Buffy's reactions to Spike in S8/S9 were nothing short of bizarre, but they're there on the page.

She spent a good bit of time insulting him. It was S4 levels. S10 Spuffy might have made some semblance of sense post S7, but not after 8/9.

Spike has been back in SF for... Well, issue 40 is 6 months after Spike leaves, I believe. He comes back after 2 months. She he'd have been back from 4 months and she's still cold.

The time for Buffy and Spike meet each other and address his resurrection would have been after BtVS s7, or Angel S5 – but then, we had BtVS S8, which had a specific plot where Spuffy really didn't fit, as I said before

Then, they had to downplay Spuffy, because they didn't want to use that card too soon – “let's keep the shippers reading the comics to see what happens!”, or something like that.

It's like Buffy targeted people she knew she wouldn't really want to commit (not being in love with any of them) like Wood, Xander, Satsu, Dowling, the speeding date.

With Spike, she had been tiptoeing around the vampire for quite some time, “not ready for him not to be there”, sleeping in his arms ("you gave me strenght"), calling him when things get ugly (“But fake as my problems were, you know what was real? You showing up when I needed someone. Thanks.”), asking for him to stay - not in a direct way (“Simone's still out there, you could use that as an excuse to stay”) - afraid to commit and be happy, but later, hurt.

So, she finally decides to cave in to something that has been there:

And he does make me happy. I like who I'm when I'm with him. I like who we are together.

Really? I don't remember it, but even so nothing bad ever happened at his crypt.

The crypt represents much more than just one event - a person wouldn't live there, for starters; he was a vampire without a soul living at the cemetery, an "worthless thing", and with the soul he gained some selfrespect.

Too comfy really. Some of us are falling asleep because of all the comfy boredom of this relationship. Where did all the S9 angst stuff go? Answer- a different writer who is listening to a certain fanbase replaced a writer who wasn't.

We are a legion! I'm so glad that you all keep saying that the writers bend over to write what I want! I hope they keep it - for some time, at least!

 

[thetopher]

Or... the whole cookie dough was just to appease Angel before send him away.

I doubt it, since Angel didn't actually care for the cookie analogy. It was a sincere Buffy speech about how maybe the whole romance thing isn't her fault and that she should be content for a while.
Apparently it worked for 18 months-ish and then it was back to 'There's something wrong with me!'

Personally I would've like it if she'd moved past that place (and she still hasn't as of last issue) and found another drum to bang.

The one who made having a soul a big deal was Joss Whedon, Buffy was just voicing the mantra.

Yeah, that was that whole Season 2 plot about Angel/Angelus, that a was a thing that hack Joss produced. But really does a soul actually matter? As the show went on it seemed to matter less and less. The Spuffy thing was just the final nail.

Remember, blame the character, not the writer for what they say.

We are a legion!

Well, you're loud but no, you're not the majority. 😛

 

[white avenger]

Or... the whole cookie dough was just to appease Angel before send him away. 😀

Actually, it was the "second front' thing that was used to get Angel to go away. Listen closely to Buffy's cookie dough speech, and you will notice that she never actually says that Angel is the one who is guaranteed to get the cookies. She says that some day her cookies will be baked, and then she will be able to make an actual commitment, and hat she does think that far ahead, sometimes. Nowhere in that entire speech does she mention Angel, Spike, Riley, or anyone else. It is only Angel's ego that makes him believe that she is referring specifically to him.

The cookie dough speech was nothing more than a general statement, affirming that Buffy does, at last, actually have some hope of a happy future with someone, that she might actually have a chance of living past the age of 25. The fact that she said it to Angel has no significance at all. She could have told Willow or Giles the exact same thing, and no one would be claiming that she planned on settling down with either one of them. Just because Angel believed that she was referring to him doesn't make it so.

 

[Skanky Vamp]

It is only Angel's ego that makes him believe that she is referring specifically to him.

I never thought she was referring to anyone in particular and if I remember correctly neither did Angel. He just said he would wait. I don't think Angel thinks one way or the other about her cookies 'belonging' to him. He never really treated or thought of her that way.

 

[gite63]

I never thought she was referring to anyone in particular and if I remember correctly neither did Angel. He just said he would wait. I don't think Angel thinks one way or the other about her cookies 'belonging' to him. He never really treated or thought of her that way.

Deep down he thought he would some day get the baked cookies, yes... this became even clearer after the reaction he had seeing her with Spike. Cordy? Forget her, he apparently still wants Buffy.

ANGEL
But she's not finished baking yet.
(ranting)
I gotta wait till she's done baking, you know, till she finds herself, 'cause that's the drill. Fine. I'm waitin' patiently, and meanwhile, The Immortal's eatin' cookie dough!
(sighs, sits)

 

[Skanky Vamp]

I gotta wait till she's done baking, you know, till she finds herself, 'cause that's the drill. Fine. I'm waitin' patiently, and meanwhile,

I always took it as he was waiting for her to make up her mind to see who gets the cookies. I didn't think he meant "I am waiting for her to choose me"

 

[gite63]

I always took it as he was waiting for her to make up her mind to see who gets the cookies. I didn't think he meant "I am waiting for her to choose me"

I believe he meant both... he will wait, is waiting, and he hopes that he is the one she chooses... why would be he waiting her baked cookies if they could be... enjoyed by someone else? It's quite normal - if he still loved at that time/or love to this day Buffy.

 

[Skanky Vamp]

I believe he meant both... he will wait, is waiting, and he hopes that he is the one she chooses... why would be he waiting her baked cookies if they could be... enjoyed by someone else? It's quite normal - if he still loved at that time/or love to this day Buffy.

Of course he hopes it's him. But that's not the same as expecting it and thinking one day he will get it.

His waiting is not like a normal persons waiting.. his waiting a decade or so for her to make up her mind is the equivalent to a normal person waiting a few weeks.

 

[thetopher]

....And yet Buffy specifically says TO ANGEL: 'sometimes I do think that far ahead.' to him. Then he says with a smile 'sometimes is something' and then Buffy basically replies that it will be a long way off, years if ever.
She doesn't say 'bitch please, I didn't mean you. You're just the guy I'm talking near.'

So Angel did have some reason to think that it might be about him. It wasn't his ego making assumptions or anything.

But whatever, like the song says; shake it off Angel. 🙄

 

[gite63]

....And yet Buffy specifically says TO ANGEL: 'sometimes I do think that far ahead.' to him. Then he says with a smile 'sometimes is something' and then Buffy basically replies that it will be a long way off, years if ever.
She doesn't say 'bitch please, I didn't mean you. You're just the guy I'm talking near.'

It's why I think that she made the cookie dough speech to appease Angel before sending him on his merry way...

I particularly think it would be ridiculous for her to mean “look, I love you, I'll end up with you eventually, but before... I'll enjoy life and have sex with many men (and even women), and only then, when I'm older, I'll look for you, OK? By now.”

Never have I seen this in real life, but on TV it happens quite a lot.

 

[Skanky Vamp]

I particularly think it would be ridiculous for her to mean “look, I love you, I'll end up with you eventually, but before... I'll enjoy life and have sex with many men (and even women), and only then, when I'm older, I'll look for you, OK? By now.”

Actually that did happen to me once pretty much.

 

[thetopher]

It's why I think that she made the cookie dough speech to appease Angel before sending him on his merry way...

Again its two separate things. the speech isn't about Angel (or indeed any guy) its about Buffy and it is heartfelt and important. To dismiss it as Angel-pandering is kinda missing the point a bit...

Those last comments may well be Buffy telling Angel what he wants to hear, except it was completely unnecessary since he was already leaving. Buffy calls after him to say this specific thing to Angel. Now if she was just saying that to be 'appeasing' then she's being intentionally cruel, right?
Unless you're being a bit bias and arbitrarily deciding which bits Buffy meant and Which bits she didn't because you happen to ship differently. 😉

I particularly think it would be ridiculous for her to mean “look, I love you, I'll end up with you eventually, but before... I'll enjoy life and have sex with many men (and even women), and only then, when I'm older, I'll look for you, OK? By now.”

She doesn't say that, all she gives Angel is a 'might', a bit of hope, not a guarantee, which is completely within her rights to do. After all Buffy makes out with one vampire in S7 and it ain't Spike. So there might still be lingering feelings after all.

And also...isn't that exactly what happens anyway (albeit sooner) Buffy hunts around for a while, sleeps with precisely one other person (a fellow slayer) and then its back to Angel again. It's jst that weird-GodAngel comes looking for her that's the difference.

 

[EVIL UU]

You don't need to be sorry for us, I guarantee.

Oh, I don't feel sorry for you. You shippers basically troll yourselves, you deserve it. No, I feel sorry for Spike 'cause he shouldn't be in love with Buffy. It's not good for him. All this time he kept trying to change for her and I don't know, maybe he should just be with someone who, you know, likes him the way he is. I mean, he's OK. And it's not like he truly changed at all and that's sad.

 

[gite63]

Again its two separate things. the speech isn't about Angel (or indeed any guy) its about Buffy and it is heartfelt and important.

Thinking it over, she had the inspiration to give that heartfelt speech (another epiphany of sorts) right after kissing Angel... “I'm cookies. And then, you know, if I want someone to eat- or enjoy warm, delicious cookie me, then... that's fine. That'll be then. When I'm done.” There really were no tongues in that kiss.

Now if she was just saying that to be 'appeasing' then she's being intentionally cruel, right?

Quite the contrary, she was being nice to him.

And while rereading it, I noticed something interesting, that it's related to what Angel said to Willow in the comics:

ANGEL: I'm getting the brush off for Captain Peroxide. It doesn't necessarily bring out the champion in me.

BUFFY: You're not getting the brush off. Are you just gonna come here and go all Dawson on me every time I have a boyfriend?

ANGEL: Aha! Boyfriend!

BUFFY: He's not. But...he is in my heart.

ANGEL: That'll end well.

Same reaction both times.

 

[Silverspike]

Oh, I don't feel sorry for you. You shippers basically troll yourselves, you deserve it. No, I feel sorry for Spike 'cause he shouldn't be in love with Buffy. It's not good for him. All this time he kept trying to change for her and I don't know, maybe he should just be with someone who, you know, likes him the way he is. I mean, he's OK. And it's not like he truly changed at all and that's sad.

Err, what? He's changed and in fact it was Buffy that was instrumental in him seeking a soul. The biggest change a vampire could possible achieve in the verse.

 

[thetopher]

Thinking it over, she had the inspiration to give that heartfelt speech (another epiphany of sorts) right after kissing Angel... “I'm cookies. And then, you know, if I want someone to eat- or enjoy warm, delicious cookie me, then... that's fine. That'll be then. When I'm done.” There really were no tongues in that kiss.

It's always fun to see a shipper do the 'that means nothing but this means something' hopscotch just so they can justify their ship! 😛

Maybe all those Spike kisses are just Buffy meaningless, leading him on because she's desperate not to be alone? Works both ways.

I mean, I don't think that because I would never say that a characters integrity is less important than who they happen to be dating. But then I'm not a shipper.

I still think its insulting to Buffy's character to think that speech has anything to do with a particular guy- since it links up with Buffy's own heartfelt thoughts in CWDP when there was nobody important around. It's part of Buffy's character development that season. Actually I think its her only character progression, which is why I like it.

Quite the contrary, she was being nice to him.

Nope. Giving someone false hope for no reason is not nice, its cruel. It's like saying 'oh, I'll totally call you' when actually you have no intention.

On the other hand if you tell somebody that you love them because they've nobly sacrificed themselves and their literally dying in front of you? Well, that's more likely to be a deception. 😛

 

[RomanticSoul]

On the other hand if you tell somebody that you love them because they've nobly sacrificed themselves and their literally dying in front of you? Well, that's more likely to be a deception. 😛

*snort*
Come on, I thought we all knew she didn't mean those words, at least not in a romantic sense. After all it takes all of 5 seconds to say 'Yes, I do.' after Spike's 'No you don't, but thanks for saying it.' And since she never denied his claim I thought it was pretty clear where each one of them stood.