Maybe you're right. I never expected him to take B/A in this direction this season. It seemed outlandish to even hope for it.
Having just seen "Devil" last night, I really hope Joss decides to break the mold.
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Maybe you're right. I never expected him to take B/A in this direction this season. It seemed outlandish to even hope for it.
Having just seen "Devil" last night, I really hope Joss decides to break the mold.
white avenger
white avenger
With something as powerful as Twilight/Universe/Whoever, I have very serious doubts that Buffy could just reject its influence like taking off a coat. At best, she would come to her senses over a brief period of time, and the same thing goes for Angel. Plus, if Angel or Buffy aren't doing precisely what Twilight has planned for them to do, why is it allowing them to keep their increased ability to resist it? What it so easily gave, it could just as easily take back.
white avenger
white avenger
And what is given can be taken back. Buffy and Angel could be stripped of their powers just as easily as they received them, and it would make no sense whatsoever for an entity as powerful as Twilight undoubtedly is to allow anyone no longer under its influence to be able to fight back with what amounts to its own weapons.
Twilight still has plans for Buffy and Angel, and it still has very good reason to believe that those plans will be carried out. We all, I'm sure, believe that the good guys will prevail in the end, but throwing off Twilight's influence and resisting/overcoming its plans won't be anything as simple or as easy as just saying, "I suddenly realize that what we're doing is wrong, so I'm not going to do it anymore." or, "My girlfriend doesn't want to play Eve to my Adam if it means the destruction of the universe, so I am no longer under the influence of this evil force."
If we assume that Twilight is more powerful than the First Evil, why wouldn't its influence over Buffy and Angel be just as difficult, if not more so, to overcome as it was for Spike to finally get his trigger removed?
Skanky Vamp
"what is given can be taken back" Unless you have a gift receipt generally after 30 days it cannot be taken back, unless you just get a store credit.
citiegal17
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Well Allie already established that glow connected to Twilight had no power over Buffy's or Angel's free will. Therefore, the glow is not to blame for anything that Buffy and Angel have done with the glow. Twilight obviously does not carry a lot of influence over simple manipulation in which to influence that is weak at best. Thats why Buffy resisted it as easily as she did. I should really post the interview later when I have a chance where Allie explains the glow and why Buffy and Angel are not off the hook. Twilight I doubt was ever the universe it was the big bad manipulating Angel with ideas built to sucker Angel in, ones that would easily tempt him(getting Buffy, a demension all to himself, saving the world, and still thinking he's not responsible for the evil because he's a moral relativist which doesn't make him innocent), and the big bad is most likely the master or SV, or some sort of god.
Tranquillity
That'll put marzipan in your pie plate bingo
Citiegal17 said:
I don't know about that...
and
(from another Buffy-forum, so I'm not going to link)
So it seems that the Glow or the influence of Twilight does have a profound influence on behaviour - It doesn't create feelings but it does amplify them and cause one to act where one usually wouldn't.
I don't know about that...
and
(from another Buffy-forum, so I'm not going to link)
So it seems that the Glow or the influence of Twilight does have a profound influence on behaviour - It doesn't create feelings but it does amplify them and cause one to act where one usually wouldn't.
citiegal17
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How could it have a profound influence if its got no control over free will? If its profound it should be able to change ones personality or take away free will, which it doesn't. It work liked alcohol which does neither. Also in the interview you just posted Allie confirms that Angel and Buffy are actually acting true to themselves, with the glows influence. Allie also pretty much states with the glow your still you which doesn't support anything about a personality change or lack of free will.[/quote]
Q: Fans are making statements like “Angel is crazy” and “I don’t want to know this Buffy anymore”, as characters’ behavior in Season 8 has been complicated by the influence of possible future realities, a potentially mind-altering glow and a nameless Power that can possess people. Are Buffy and Angel’s actions and behavior true to who they are now or the result of an outside influence?
SCOTT: Both. The outside influence of Twilight has been a big factor, for sure.
Q: The glow in the Twilight arc has been controversial for various reasons, most significantly because of issues of consent for both Buffy and Angel. What was the reasoning behind the glow originally, and to what degree should we take it as making Buffy and Angel’s decisions for them?
SCOTT: We wanted a visual representation of what was going on, the way they were infused. But you should not let the characters off the hook completely for their actions. It worked like a drug, clouding your judgment, but you’re still you. You should not abandon responsibility for your actions, even if you might have acted differently if not under the influence.
Q: Fans are making statements like “Angel is crazy” and “I don’t want to know this Buffy anymore”, as characters’ behavior in Season 8 has been complicated by the influence of possible future realities, a potentially mind-altering glow and a nameless Power that can possess people. Are Buffy and Angel’s actions and behavior true to who they are now or the result of an outside influence?
SCOTT: Both. The outside influence of Twilight has been a big factor, for sure.
Q: The glow in the Twilight arc has been controversial for various reasons, most significantly because of issues of consent for both Buffy and Angel. What was the reasoning behind the glow originally, and to what degree should we take it as making Buffy and Angel’s decisions for them?
SCOTT: We wanted a visual representation of what was going on, the way they were infused. But you should not let the characters off the hook completely for their actions. It worked like a drug, clouding your judgment, but you’re still you. You should not abandon responsibility for your actions, even if you might have acted differently if not under the influence.
Tranquillity
well you originally said that 'Twilight' has little influence, when the scott Allie quotes say that it plainly does. Profound = Big Influence.
Daniel Osbourne
Townie
I will be incredibly disappointed if Dawn dies. Imagine what would happen to poor Buffy and Xander. The Scoobies would be forever distraught and torn apart by the emotional impact of her passing. Dawn is too important. She is the person that motivated Buffy to live again in Grave. I honestly don't care who Buffy ends up with, but they better NOT kill Dawnie!
MinwaraYana
Agree!
white avenger
white avenger
Free will doesn't have to be affected in order to influence someone's actions. What has to be affected is one's perception of what is going on around them. For instance (and here I'm using Spike only as an example, not as any kind of comparison to Angel) if Buffy perceives Spike as the Champion who saved Sunnydale and the world, the person who gave her the strength to carry on when all of her so called friends betrayed her, and the man in whose arms she wanted to be in what very well might have been her last night on earth, then she is almost certainly going to trust and depend on him in this new crisis.
If, on the other hand, she sees him as the person who. upon returning from the dead, never bothered to let her know that he was back, therefore abandoning her just the same way everyone else that she ever cared about has, who rejected her declarations of love, and who, just coincidentally shows up at the critical moment with the vital information that may help her to quell this latest apocalypse, who obviously has some sort of unknown agenda, she is going to see Spike as simply a resource to be used but never truly depended upon.
By manipulating Buffy's perceptions of the things and people around her, by planting just the slightest doubt as to someone's loyalty, by creating just a slight distrust of the methods and agenda of a potential ally, Twilight doesn't actually change Buffy's, or Angel's, sense of right or wrong or their desire to serve and protect mankind. It simply alters their perceptions of what make an action or person good or bad.
The same can almost certainly be said for how Twilight manipulated Angel into the belief that leading an army and killing hundreds of Slayers was actually the "right" thing to do in order to save Buffy, or, for that matter, that saving Buffy at the cost of everything else in the universe was the best choice😱 under the circumstances.
Twilight couldn't make Buffy or Angel kill a friend, but it could alter their perception of that friend to the point that they were now seen as actually being enemies, at which time killing them would seem to be the proper action to take.
citiegal17
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Tranquillity agrees: well you originally said that 'Twilight' has little influence, when the scott Allie quotes say that it plainly does. Profound = Big Influence.
I guess it depends really on how you really percieve it to be as a profound influence. Granted it was a big influence according to Allie, but did Angel really have to change that much to buy into it, or to rationalize everything way? I don't really see how he's a well known believe in the greater good which is part of the motive for becoming Twilight, which means no change in that department. He thought he was protecting Buffy which is his weakness, and he thought he would be getting a reward a weakness, another weakness which is to believe in prophetcies played a part. Twilight just played on his weaknesses that doesn't come off that profound to me, was a big factor yes, but did it really change him that much doesn't seem like it.
I guess it depends really on how you really percieve it to be as a profound influence. Granted it was a big influence according to Allie, but did Angel really have to change that much to buy into it, or to rationalize everything way? I don't really see how he's a well known believe in the greater good which is part of the motive for becoming Twilight, which means no change in that department. He thought he was protecting Buffy which is his weakness, and he thought he would be getting a reward a weakness, another weakness which is to believe in prophetcies played a part. Twilight just played on his weaknesses that doesn't come off that profound to me, was a big factor yes, but did it really change him that much doesn't seem like it.
Tranquillity
That'll put marzipan in your pie plate bingo
Scott Allie likened the influence to that of Drugs. Take a drunk person, for example, they often do things that they wouldn't usually do while under the influence of alcohol - They might get into a fight, have a one night stand, get mean, get overly sentimental, say things they wouldn't usually say and do things they wouldn't usually do because of the influence of the drug that is in their system. The drunk person often acts on existing feelings and thoughts - the alcohol loosens the tounge, inflates the ego, dulls the sense of responsability and consequence. That is how I see the influnce of the Twilight Glow. I'm not saying that Buffy doesn't love Angel - she plainly does - but I do think that the Glow caused her to act where she usually wouldn't.
Oh Yeah I agree - Angel has been manipulated Big Time. I am wondering if the "Power without Name" wanted Angel to 'push' Buffy into getting her powers because it knew exactly what it took to create the new universe and it wants the new universe for it's own purposes...whatever thay may be.
C
citiegal17
well I agree about the alcohol part I just don't think that there was any personality changing going on with the glow.
I doubt it's Dawn who dies, I think it's gonna be Xander. The hints that point to Dawn dying are done to distract us from guessing that it's Xander. I haven't heard any talk about Xander in S9, so I'm assuming it's him who's gonna die.
Chosen Enemy
Losing my soul
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Oh, I just read the preview pages and I'm so excited about Spike and Buffy finally get to talk. I've been waiting for about 7 years for God's sake!
I don't even read the comics (after the 4th issue and 5th issue that still lies in my room), but I'm trying to keep up with the storyline.
And I'm also excited about Buffy coming out of the Spike's shower, and Spike lying on the bed spread, and the options of what it might mean.
And I wanted to ask you something. I saw the following banner, about season 8's finale:
And it seems that Buffy's embracing Spike and Angel looking upset by that. Does it mean something? Is it the picture that I saw a few month ago that's referring to Twillight, with their position and all?
I don't even read the comics (after the 4th issue and 5th issue that still lies in my room), but I'm trying to keep up with the storyline.
And I'm also excited about Buffy coming out of the Spike's shower, and Spike lying on the bed spread, and the options of what it might mean.
And I wanted to ask you something. I saw the following banner, about season 8's finale:
xfivebyfive
Because its Fate.
And I wanted to ask you something. I saw the following banner, about season 8's finale:
And it seems that Buffy's embracing Spike and Angel looking upset by that. Does it mean something? Is it the picture that I saw a few month ago that's referring to Twillight, with their position and all?
I don't know if it has anything to do with the actual storyline but it's a parody of the New Moon poster.
Chosen Enemy
that's the one
VisionGirl
Newly Human
OMG, that is funny! Do you think that Stephenie Meyers is pissed? Both at these kinds of things, and the name Twilight. It's hard for me to believe that Joss picked that name as a coincidence.
StarSlayer
Defender of Spuffy
I really think it's just a parody of the Twilight poster. The only real reason I see Angel fitting the position of Edward is because both were the "first loves." Other than that, Buffy is not Bella, Spike is no where near being Jacob, and Angel doesn't sparkle like Edward.
---------- Post added at 12:49 PM ---------- Previous post was at 12:48 PM ----------
Lol, I doubt she's pissed. She's making too much money right now.
B
Buffy4ever2k10
Awesome Banner
LadyLavinia
Scooby
How can Twilight be more powerful than the First Evil? The First Evil is the source of all evil that dwells within all living beings. It can't be destroyed.
The First Evil was a lame ass villain, period. It was not even able to materialize. Sheesh, I bet Twilight(as lame as he is) is much more powerful 😎
MinwaraYana
Two 'lame' in one post, huh? :p
Yeah twilights got more lame powers than the first for sure. I thought the first was a pretty lame bad guy but twilight is just craptasticly worse.
Somehow the bad guys have just gotten worse and worse as the seasons wore on, my personal favourites are the master, Spike and the Mayor but after that they just got really crappy with the low point being the First.