Proposition Eight

[Skanky Vamp]

Would taking the word "marriage" out of the equation make any difference in California?

Not sure what it would do for California, but as I said, it would make a big difference as far as I am concerned.

 

[Veyron]

Bored - as far as abortion is concerned I'm actually pro. I think it should be every mothers right not to have a child if they don't think that they are able to look after that child in the manner befitting it. If a foetus is, and I'm trying to put this in a broad spectrum sense of the word - damaged - then it should be aborted - if the child's quality of life is going to be impaired in any way, or if the child is going to grow up in constant pain for example through a defect whilst still in the womb then the mother should be given the right to terminate rather than see that child being born into a world of constant pain.

I'm not trying to start a debate or a religious war here - but I think that the catholic religion is way off base in regards to abortion too and maybe it's time for a re-think regarding that part of the faith. As you said, it's the 21st Century - and something like abortion within religion is too out-dated.

Getting back to California though - is it a particularly heavy state regarding religion?

 

[Edmund Blackadder]

Bored - as far as abortion is concerned I'm actually pro. I think it should be every mothers right not to have a child if they don't think that they are able to look after that child in the manner befitting it. If a foetus is, and I'm trying to put this in a broad spectrum sense of the word - damaged - then it should be aborted - if the child's quality of life is going to be impaired in any way, or if the child is going to grow up in constant pain for example through a defect whilst still in the womb then the mother should be given the right to terminate rather than see that child being born into a world of constant pain.

I'm not trying to start a debate or a religious war here - but I think that the catholic religion is way off base in regards to abortion too and maybe it's time for a re-think regarding that part of the faith. As you said, it's the 21st Century - and something like abortion within religion is too out-dated.

Getting back to California though - is it a particularly heavy state regarding religion?

My beliefs have nothing to do with religion, they are based purely on the fact that believe the foetus is the beginning of life and that aborting it is someone else making a judgement on another life. Who is anyone to second guess the impact a life will have. You have no idea what that life will achieve so to extinguish it before it can is wrong.

Anyway, if we want to have a discussion about Abortion I suggest another thread is opened and leave this one to Prop 8!

 

[yellowcrayon]

I'm going to make like Scobro and state my opinion. I'd prefer not debating it, as it's a really sensitive issue and I'm not sure how well it would go. (Then again, it could make my dream come true, of folks on BB telling me "Look, you have really controversial opinions, and so we'd like to ask you to leave before things get bad" 😉)

Firstly, I am married to my wonderful husband. Secondly, I most emphatically do *not* believe that marriage is a right whatsoever. If it is a right, it should not be denied to anyone: cousins, siblings, young peope, etc. (Of course, I don't believe in the "right" to vote, either. I consider both to be privileges.) I also, again most emphatically, do not believe that marriage should be a government institution. The main reason it is one has to do mostly with taxes, insurance and the like.

Let me also state that I know and am friends with several people who are homosexual. In addition, my view on whether homosexual marriage should be allowed does not *directly* correlate with my religious views of homosexuality in general; it does, however, coincide nicely, but I am not going to get into my views of homosexuality in general as it is not necessary to this subject (and it's something I think can be debated even less well). I think I've covered all my disclaimers now. 😉

As I previously said, I do not believe in any right to marry. I also believe that there is a statutory definition of marriage as a union between a man and a woman. We do, however, in the United States, have what is also called a civil union. It is not federally acknowledged and only certain states have them, but they grant most of the rights of marriage. Of course, I can see the problem with homosexuals accepting this as other states do not have to recognize the legitimacy of civil unions and neither does the federal government.

After talking some more with FbF about the UK's Civil Partnerships, I think that is the ideal thing in this situation, as it currently stands. I believe it can bridge the gap between both sides of the equation. It will grant the homosexuals the rights that they are after as well as allow pacify those who think marriage is between a man and a woman.

Okay. My thought process is starting to go downhill and I need to put the couch back together before the cable guy shows up. 😛

I think I went to all that trouble just to say I agreed with sco...

 

[Relic]

Prop eight sucks.

You can't have a separation between the church and the state...like I believe my countries founders wanted... when the state grants a license to an act/pact defined by religion...the whole marriage equals man plus women thing.

I say do away with marriage licenses all together and civil union it up so same sex and different sex civil unions will have equal rights as far as power of attorney and tax breaks go.

The state can not force religions to effect a marriage ceremony for homosexuals in a church, why should a churches definition of marriage effect a states legal doctrine in a court house regarding civil rights?

And civil unions should not be called marriage certificates for those of the 'straight' persuasion either or your setting up a possible legal loop hole for the whole separate but equal mess again like they had with schools/pools/ drinking fountains and how they affected races in the 60's.

Civil union the certificate and call it what it is.

prop 8 sucks.

 

[palabravampiress]

Well, I'm a Californian, and I voted No on Prop 8. When it passed anyway, I took to the streets and marched in protest. I think that makes my opinion pretty clear.

In our society, the word "marriage" has at least two meanings. One meaning is defined by your religion of choice. The other is defined by the state. Your religion and your state do not always see eye to eye. For example, I know a Catholic couple whose marriage is not recognized by their church. The man divorced his first wife before marrying his current wife (of some thirty odd years). Their church does not recognize their marriage, allow them to take communion, or allow them to participate fully and equally in some sacraments. The state, however, recognizes their marriage as valid. The spouses are recognized as next of kin and therefore permitted by law to share property and assets like their home and their insurance policies, to file taxes jointly, to visit one another in the hospital, etc. etc. In the United States, civil marriage is already separate from religious marriage. Civil marriage is a legal contract that provides next-of-kin to status to two unrelated individuals. Whether certain individuals or religions choose to recognize every civil marriage is immaterial so long as the state recognizes it. To separate these two types of marriage simply by renaming one boils down to merely an issue of semantics.

The real issue here, though, isn't semantics. The real issue here is affording the individual citizen the right to enter into a legal and civil relationship with the person of his or her choosing. The issue that is at stake here is one of deciding who you want by your bedside and in consultation with your doctor when you're in the hospital, who you want to share your assets with in life and in death, who you want to have the legal right to take off work to grieve at your funeral, who you want to have the legal right to take family medical leave to help you recover from surgery or cancer, etc. These are the rights and protections that marriage provides. How we can call ourselves a free society while restricting citizens' choices in their day-to-day lives in such a manner is beyond me.

Those who oppose gay marriage on religious or moral grounds are welcome to do so. To legally revoke the rights of fellow citizens to decide these very basic, very personal day-to-day issues for themselves, however, is shameful. You don't have to agree with an individual's decision; you just have to accept his or her right to direct the course of his or her own life and family. I think those who oppose gay marriage are missing the point. It isn't about how you, personally, feel about gay marriage; it's about giving each citizen the equal and very basic right to choose his or her own family. How we can take that away and still consider ourselves a free society is beyond my understanding.

 

[randiann]

I guess I view everything with a cloud.

I don't understand how there could such a vocal outcry for this.

Over three thousand Americans are killed everyday by abortion. Three Thousand.

If that number of women were killed everyday, it would genocide.

If that number of blacks were killed everyday, it would be genocide.

If that number of gays were killed everyday, it would genocide.

If we had a president that allowed a war where that many soldiers were killed everday, he (or she!) would not only be kicked out office, they would probably be assisinated.

How can you expect to have the freedom to marry when you're gay if society can't even recognize your right to life?

So does this 3000 a day include the baby I was pretty much forced to lose at 4 and a half months because my child had a fatal neural tube defect? You haven't been in that position, you don't know what it's like to have to choose, and you are in NO PLACE to judge other people for their decisions. You saying that makes you NO BETTER than the stupid people who go to college campuses every year and hang the 50 foot high pictures of dead babies as a "pro-life" promoter. How do you think that makes someone who has been in my position feel? I can tell you I went to class in tears more than one day last week because of insensitive selfish people like you. And that's all I'm going to say about that.

As far as prop 8; I'm against it. Call me crazy, but I think people should be able to choose who they want to marry (once they are old enough to make that decision, I'm not talking crazy child marriage here). I don't think this should be dictated by our government.

 

[Edmund Blackadder]

Religion is a part of this and I must say I have a very strong faith in God however my faith tells me that God wouldn't care about the sex of the people who pledged to love each other in his name. In fact, I fundamentally believe that God would truly appreciate people of the same sex standing up and acknowledging their love to the world and to him because he would understand the sacrifices and hardships they have had to endure.

You wanna get all Religical on me thats fine, but anyone who argues against the above because it is wrong, show me proof.
Something other than a book written millenia ago by a group of old men.

The Bible is the word of God however it is transcribed and translated by man - man is fallible thus its fair to assume the bible is too.

I love the bible, I read a passage or two daily BUT its is a collection of stories to give guidance not a book of directions given from on high.

 

[The Ferg]

I was so pissed that Cali. passed that... They were supposed to be like an example to everyone.

To me, gay marriage shouldn't be the issue. Equality should be. Every single person should have the same rights no matter what their race, religion, gender, or sexuality may be.

 

[Five]

In my opinion, it's not about rights. It's not about rights at all. It's not even about marriage. It's about showing people it's okay to be gay.

I don't know if you followed all the Brooke Smith from Grey's Anatomy drama. Please don't read if you don't want season 5 spoilers. Basically, the woman got fired by ABC because her character, Dr. Hahn, had gotten into a love relationship with another woman, Dr. Calliope Torres. While everyone at ABC says it's so not homophobic, it clearly is, especially since it came with Prop Hate...

At this occasion, shocked at that decision, I've read a lot on blogs and forums about people's reaction, and I was so shocked to see how many, many, many people were relieved. Those people kept saying they were not homophobic at all, but didn't realize at all they totally were. "I have no problem with gay people doing what they want in their private homes, just don't shovel it down our throat when we watch our favourite show !" And that's almost word-to-word quoting. It's like those ladies who say they have nothing against homosexuals but find themselves throwing their own child out when he/she comes out. What I mean is... People may say they're okay with homosexuality, there's still work to be done, and the worst part ? Most people think their work is done, that's as far as it gets, though no, it's not normal people should consider homophobia an opinion or even consider homosexuality something you know, have no problem with since it's between consenting people, but never talk about because it's baaaad. I'm fighting, and I will fight until people are totally okay with homosexuality, until people send invitations with "You and your wife/husband are invited to..." instead of either "wife" or "husband", until "mother" and "father" in official forms are replaced by "parent 1" and "parent 2". If I must fight my entire life and die with an unfinished battle, then so may it be. I don't care.

That's why I consider gay marriage not about marriage or rights. It's about the government showing reluctant people it's definitely okay to be gay, homosexuals are NOT different estranged (sick?) people. They're not people who you tolerate because you have to if you want to be considered an open person - but whom you would hate if you could without getting judged. They're not people who you tolerate in other homes but in yours. It's exactly like Black people : the government showed once and for all that Blacks and Whites were exactly the same, hence they had exactly the same rights, it's not to be questioned, it's obvious (for God's sakes, it's just a melanin thing...!). I truly believed it de-rascist-ized a lot of rascist people : these people's true beliefs were not really that Black people were bad or inferior, it was not that noone ever told them otherwise, not in a national, even international, way.

So you see what I want with gay marriage. I want people to assume gay people are equal to them, because the government clearly said so. That's the reason why I disagree with posters (no offense though!) that think it should be created the same thing than marriage but with another name... It's no good, it shows gay people as people that are apart, away from the heterosexual community. I don't want that. Here, in France, I want gay marriage to be authorized, but with our MORON president it's not going to happen tomorrow... (May this man quit tomorrow instead, and I'll be so happy I'll buy every Buffy DVD in my town and just give them to the people on the street...)

Besides, I think it's not that gay people want to get married, it's about knowing they can if they want to.

Okaaayyy so that's was my unbelievably-long opinion, I'm very sorry it was written in such a bad English, I hope you'll forgive me of that. =)

 

[Lyri]

I'm so disappointed right now. I thought we'd finally, grown up and realized that we're in the 21st Century here.

I'm not gay, but I have several close friends who are, and some who are Bi. Why shouldn't they be allowed to marry? Why are they different to Mr. and Mrs. Smith down the street?

For the first time in a long time, I am proud to be British, and I'm proud of our Civil Partnership. It would make me so sad to not be able to attend my friends' wedding, just because they're different. I would be honoured and proud to stand up with my friends, if and when they do decide to marry.

The people I feel most sorry for are the couples who did get married when it was 'allowed'. Now they've been told that their marriage is meaningless, that their day never happened, that the vows they took are now illegal. How devestated they must feel.

If I was in America right now, I'd be at those rallies. And I'd be proud to be there.

 

[ckg927]

Just imagine,for a minute,that Prop 8's provision said that "only a man and a woman from the same race" could get married.
Think it would have passed muster? Not a bloody chance in hell.

But that was the case about 40 years ago;as Keith Olbermann pointed out in his comment on the matter(which someone so nicely linked to here),about one third of the states had anti-miscegenation laws on the books as late as the 1960s.

Had the anti-Prop 8 folks pushed this matter...over and over again...in their ads,you might have seen this matter go down to defeat,instead of narrowly passing.

 

[Harley]

ckg927 agrees: Bill Hicks said it best: "You're not a human being 'till you're in my phone book." And,in any case,there are religions(Judaism,for starters)that see the start of life differently than you do.

Since this is not an abortion thread, this will be my last post on the topic...if you have to stop the heartbeat, it's murder.

 

[hannahfngrl26]

So clearly I came in at a bad time. So, back to gay rights....I think this whole thing is crap. I hate that our country cares so much about this at all. Seriously, a person should be able to marry someone of the same sex. Who cares, I mean really. Why cant we just let people be happy. God, it makes me so mad!!

 

[itsxpaperdoll]

Like (almost) everyone already said, It's a real shame that this proposition passed and everything. Me, personally, I don't really get the point of marriage at all (is it spiritiual? Is it purely legal? I don't get it, and I don't care) but why would you deny people from the same sex something they really want, just because someone, ages ago, said it's just for men and women.
However, gay couples are still allowed (almost, depending on country or, in case of the US., state) rights as straight couples, right? And with the current president-elect things are looking even brighter, also on the adoption front. Sure, proposition 8 is old fashioned, conservative and horrible for people who just got married, and I mean that with every cell in my body, but it's not like we're going back to the 19th century again. Whereas a lot of countries in the world still condemn people to death for being gay.

 

[Lindsey McDonald]

Like (almost) everyone already said, It's a real shame that this proposition passed and everything. Me, personally, I don't really get the point of marriage at all (is it spiritiual? Is it purely legal? I don't get it, and I don't care) but why would you deny people from the same sex something they really want, just because someone, ages ago, said it's just for men and women.
However, gay couples are still allowed (almost, depending on country or, in case of the US., state) rights as straight couples, right? And with the current president-elect things are looking even brighter, also on the adoption front. Sure, proposition 8 is old fashioned, conservative and horrible for people who just got married, and I mean that with every cell in my body, but it's not like we're going back to the 19th century again. Whereas a lot of countries in the world still condemn people to death for being gay.

It would be great if that was the case. But it's really not. Sure, gay couples have the same rights as straight couples. Straight unmarried couples. Which, regarding things like inhertiance, residence, insurance, (y'know, the big things) etc. means pretty much no rights at all. Heterosexual couples have the option to be married - be it in a religious or entirely civil ceremony. This establishes a legal commitment, which makes things much more fair on the partner. Now, whether or not people want to get married out of love with no regard for this or not, same-sex couples are being treated as if they are incapable of making the same legal committments, and that's just plain wrong. Life is better than in the 19th century, sure. Since when does that mean we're done?

 

[Edmund Blackadder]

And with the current president-elect things are looking even brighter, also on the adoption front.

The same President-elect that is opposed to same sex marriage?

I don't think I could make it clearer what my opinion is of Obama. I think he is a hypocrite.

How can you shout from the rooftops that everyone should be free and live in free society then personally believe that one part of it shouldn't have the same rights as others?

I know people will say 'Ohh, that just shows he can put aside his personal beliefs for what is best for the country' to to me that is poppycock.

IF you believe in the ideals of freedom for all then how can you believe at the same time its OK to oppress a group of people?

Though again. I think my initial post perfectly said what I wanted to on thie actual topic though.

 

[ckg927]

Bored: Granted,I voted for Obama...but that's one of the things I disagree with him on. Strongly,in point of fact.

I was no happier when my representative in Congress-a Democrat,mind you-came out in favor of a measure that would supercede a state court ruling for just one person. Do the words Terri Schiavo ring a bell?

Believe it or not,there is someone that is on the same wavelength as you are regarding matters such as this-but much more encompassing. Take a look:

Dear President Obama: A Sexual Rights Agenda, Please

 

[Edmund Blackadder]

I was shown this tonight and thought you guys would love it

YouTube - Prop 8 The Musical
Jack Black as Jesus!!!

Here is a news piece on it
YouTube - Jack Black Gay Marriage
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Edit:
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Ohh and Neil Patrick Harris is brilliant

 

[CordyCat]

For all the gays who want to be married I think this is just awful. For myself I personally never want to get hitched and think tat being gay makes that even better on my behalf. The thing is ican barely stand living with people let alone being with them "till death do us part" and I would feel wierd hearing the word "god" in a gay marriage due to the whole christians think gays are going to hell ect. One last thing I think is I certainly wouldn't want to be called te bride.