Question about the Kraut's vampire-lab? (Why We Fight)

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Allycat

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In "Why We Fight," it is said that the Gerries expiriment on vampires, which is why they have taken Spike, Nostroyev, and the Prince of Lies captive. Now, Spike was apprehended in Madrid and I don't know about the Prince of Lies, but I would assume Nostroyev was caught somewhere in Russia. Then they were put into a U-boat, which was later stolen by the Allies.

My question is, what was the U-boat's original destination?

Obviously, it wasn't transporting Spike, Nostroyev, and the Prince of Lies to Germany. In fact, it would appear that the U-boat was crossing (or, at least, going to cross) the Atlantic.

Then, must we from this conclude that the Germans had their laboratory somewhere in North or South-America? Or did I perhaps just miss out on some detail?
 
As I recall the only indication of exactly what the Germans had planned for the vampires was written in German. You'd have to translate that from the transcripts. I don't think it would tell you where they were headed, but it might give a more exact idea of what they were up to.

I remember something about cutting into the vampire brain to find out what made it tick though.

They captured Spike in a sting operation by inviting him to a "virgin blood party" in Madrid. Did they capture the Prince of Lies, and Nostroyev in the same Party sting operation? It's never said as far as I know.

Where did the Americans commandeer the Nazi U boat? That's never said either, is it?

Where were the Nazi's originally headed for? I'm almost positive that's never said. I don't see why the Nazi's couldn't have, snagged the 3 vamps in the sting operation in Madrid, then headed back to Germany with them.

I seem to remember something about the Nazi's having operations set up in Argentina during the war. Don't know where I got that from, just sounds familiar. So possibly there too. Who knows?

Why does it matter, anyway? lol
 
As I recall the only indication of exactly what the Germans had planned for the vampires was written in German. You'd have to translate that from the transcripts. I don't think it would tell you where they were headed, but it might give a more exact idea of what they were up to.

I remember something about cutting into the vampire brain to find out what made it tick though.
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This is true. It was mentioned they expirimented on vampires. Exact reason: "They're trying to create an army... out of things like you." (Like the Initiative's Project 314: Adam)


They captured Spike in a sting operation by inviting him to a "virgin blood party" in Madrid. Did they capture the Prince of Lies, and Nostroyev in the same Party sting operation? It's never said as far as I know.
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It's possible, though Nostroyev and even less the Prince of Lies seemed to be the kind of person you'd expect to run into at these virgin blood parties.


Where did the Americans commandeer the Nazi U boat? That's never said either, is it?
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It's not said either, however do the math with me here. Angel was in New York the day of the distress signal was send out. They were able to get him on the U-boat the same day (within hours), so, at that time, it had to be in the Atlantic. It was captured two days earlier and though I know little about submarines, with what I do know about physics and stuff, I can say I find it highly unlike for the U-boat to have crossed the whole Atlantic from somewhere in Europe in a mere 2 days. So, the boat was somewhere in the Atlantic to start with. (How in hell do you capture a submarine in the middle of an ocean to start with?)


Where were the Nazi's originally headed for? I'm almost positive that's never said. I don't see why the Nazi's couldn't have, snagged the 3 vamps in the sting operation in Madrid, then headed back to Germany with them.
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Now, that doesn't make any sense what so ever... from a military strategic point of view. If a Nazi in '43 wanted to go from Madrid to Germany, land was his only option, because after a small bit of neutral land (Spain) you already reach occupied land (France) and your in German or Italian land within no time. See, this is really the issue that bothers me most. Germans wouldn't use U-boats for transportations within Europe. The owned nearly all the land. Conclusions: they must've been heading to neutral or hostile territory on another continent and with the previous comments about the Atlantic in mind, that's either North- or South-America or Africa. Why???


I seem to remember something about the Nazi's having operations set up in Argentina during the war. Don't know where I got that from, just sounds familiar. So possibly there too. Who knows?
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I know that after the war a lot of war criminals seeked shelter here (some of them are still living the rich life here).


Why does it matter, anyway? lol
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It matters, because actually... it's because of VirtualSlayer. We're doing some stuff that is related to WW2 and I'm trying to get a clear overview of what happened on a supernatural-level during WW2 in the Buffyverse.
 
I missed something. How do we know, "They were able to get him on the U-boat the same day (within hours)" ?
 
Got that impression, but after studying the transcript I couldn't find any clues to justify it. Also, found a mistake in my own explanation. It wasn't in the Atlantic. It's said it was stuck in hostile (German) territory according to the Initiative-officer.


Still, the question remains. Where was the boat going, if it wasn't heading for Germany (which still is highly unlikely)?
 
Unlikely, why? Have you seen Das Boot? Actuallly I've only seen it out of the corner or my eye, but I got the impression operations were carried out in the Atlantic, and the submarine returned to bases in Germany.

I don't see why a submarine couldn't have made it from Spain to Germany in 43.

As to why would they go by sub rather than land, there's a very good reason.

Spain was as you said neutral during WW2.

There was a German/Spanish connection. I believe Germany supported Franco during Spain's civil war, but Spain would not form a true war alliance with Germany.

I seem to remember hearing something about Hitler saying he'd rather have his teeth pulled than negotiate with Franco again, or something like that.

Spain did allow German ships to dock in Spanish ports during the war. As I heard it for most of the war Spain was neutral with German leanings. In 43 though I think the Germans were weakened, and Spain went to full neutrality.

The germans wouldn't want to carry out a dangerous military operation like trucking dangerous cargo illegally through neutral territory. Shipping the cargo by submarine would be the expected alternative. Submarines were allowed to dock in Spain.

It wouldn't be a stretch for 3 European vampires to be in Madrid in 43 in a Buffyverse context. European Buffyverse vampires are migratory. The sting operation the nazis used to capture Spike wouldn't necessarily be the same one used to capture the other 2.

How does Angel get there so quickly then? 2 days is a little quick, but it's never said it was done in 2 days. Angel was sent out 2 days after the U boat was commandeered by the Americans. I'm going to assume it was done in Madrid. The Americans would have grabbed the sub and headed for Maine.

Angel would most likely have been put on a plane and sent out into the north Atlantic to a waiting aircraft carrier. From there he could have been taken the rest of the way by American sub.

On the other hand possibly the Nazi's did have a lab in South America or Africa.

I know there's a movie called Boys From Brazil where Nazi doctor Josef Mengele is cloning a race of Hitlers in South America. I believe in that book, and later movie the operation began towards the end of the war. So I think a fictional Nazi lab in South America does have precedent.
 
Can't remember diddly about the episode but maybe they had no destination in mind, just to keep them underwater away from harm. Not likely but bah, idea on the proverbial table.
 
Well the Nazis did plan to do experiments on the vampires. As I recall that's why the Prince of Lies gets so upset.

But a lab on the sub? I don't know. Maybe.

Wish I could read German, so I'd know what was said in the German report.

And on the hostile territory thing. If German boats were docked in Spain, wouldn't the waters off it's coast be considered hostile waters? The Americans would have to take over the sub in dry-dock wouldn't they?
 
Madrid, as you may know, is located practically in the middle of Spain. The closest-by border or coast-line (so the first leave off the Spanish lands) is the border with France. There is one big river in (and around) Madrid, the Rio Manzanares (click for pic), which, as you see, is not deep enough for any kind of Submarine. Now, we have a second home in Spain. I've been there a lot of times and I can tell you that I've never come across a river that is in any way deep and wide enough all of the way for any submarine (except perhaps the Japanese miniature subs) to navigate.

Now, about Franco and Hitler. Hitler and Mussolini helped Franco get into the saddle, but indeed, when the war broke out, Franco's Spain remained neutral. However, as this site states "... However, Franco did agree to provide logistical and intelligence support..."

Then there was indeed the "dentist"-meeting on 23[sup]rd[/sup] October 1940, which didn't go well. However, after time the two forgave each other. Now, upon investigating the Hitler-Franco relationship some more I stumbled upon this letter from the former to the later its dated june '41. It mentions transports from Portugal to Switzerland, that German had taking place; therefore, I must conclude that transportations through Spanish territory were possible. And Spain and Germany were still sort of "friendly."

Later, as the first site mentions "In October 1943, Franco, convinced that the Axis powers would be defeated, now began to openly support the Allies in the war with Germany." The episode is set in 1943, but no exact date is mentioned. However, there is a newspaper on the floor (date is not clear), but the title says, "Allies strike back." If I recall correctly, the Allies got their first major break in early '43; in March '43, for instance, they succeeded in a massive air-strike. This would place the episode before Franco's "betrayal" and would thus suggest that Spike would have been transported by land.
 
Wow! I guess I really have to rewatch this episode first when it comes out on DVD. I do not have a clue about anything from this episode (except that Spike's hair was black)

I'll watch it and hopefully this conversation will make more sence.
 
Allycat said:
Later, as the first site mentions "In October 1943, Franco, convinced that the Axis powers would be defeated, now began to openly support the Allies in the war with Germany." The episode is set in 1943, but no exact date is mentioned. However, there is a newspaper on the floor (date is not clear), but the title says, "Allies strike back." If I recall correctly, the Allies got their first major break in early '43; in March '43, for instance, they succeeded in a massive air-strike. This would place the episode before Franco's "betrayal" and would thus suggest that Spike would have been transported by land.
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Yes things were not going well for Germany in 1943, as you can see here:

http://www.euronet.nl/users/wilfried/ww2/ww2.htm

Make note of this one:

23 January 1943,
Allies capture Tripoli.
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The last thing Hitler would want at this point would be Franco making deals with the allies and opening up a third front through Spain. Any military operation happening in Spanish territory would have to be clandestine.

We can't make the assumption all three vampires were grabbed in Madrid. It's never stated.

As far as Germany's relationship with Spain in 1943 goes, here's a little something:

In September 1939, World War II broke out in Europe, and although Adolf Hitler met Franco in Hendaye, France (23 October 1940), to discuss Spanish entry on the side of the Axis, Franco's demands (Gibraltar, French North Africa, etc.) proved too much and no agreement was reached (Hitler remarked that he'd rather "have two or three teeth pulled out" before trying to negotiate Franco's entry into the war again). Also contributing to the disagreement was an ongoing disagreement over German mining rights in Spain. Some historians argue that Franco made demands that he knew Hitler would not accede to in order to stay out of the war. However, others argue that he simply had nothing to offer the victorious Germans. After the collapse of France in June 1940, Spain adopted a pro-Axis non-belligerency until returning to complete neutrality in 1943 when the tide of the war had turned decisively against Germany. Franco sent troops (División Azul, or "Blue Division") to fight on the Eastern Front against the Soviet Union. They were "volunteers"; some were crusaders against Communism and some went just for the pay or to clear former liaisons with the Republic. Franco also offered facilities to German ships.
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Francisco_Franco
 
Come to think of it, here's another one. Can we even assume Nostroyev and the Prince of Lies were grabbed in Spain.

If they were grabbed somewhere else wouldn't that also explain why a submarine was used rather than a land operation?

For example if the other two were grabbed in separate locations along the mediterranean, and transported by submarine wouldn't that explain a lot of stuff. For example it would explain the obvious differences in regional origins of the 3 vampires. It would explain why they'd use a sub, because they could grab one in the East, then move on to pick another one up central, then pick Spike up last in Spain.

It was possible for a German U boat to sneak out the Mediterranean, into the Atlantic.

http://www.answerbag.com/q_view.php/439
 
No offence, but that doesn't sound like much of a plan. We're talking about a few of the strongest vampires of the time and you're suggesting transporting them all across Europe??? No, sorry! I would say that, if they were captured in different spots, they would transported be transported seperately. The risk would be too big. Lest of course these spots were very close. If they were far apart, let's say Nostroyev in Russia, Prince in Bulgary, Spike in Spain, it would make much more sense for them to be transported individually to wherever they were being taken. It spreads your risk; if you lose your transport, you only lose 1 out of 3 subjects. Also, chances of a vamp-rebellion are smaller; they can't work together.
 
But huh? The Nazis did transport all 3 of them together.

As you yourself pointed out they transported Spike, at least, from the center of Spain in a military operation through neutral territory to the coast. They were willing to take risks.

We know they're willing to take risks, so how can we presume to say we know what risks they would, or wouldn't take.

The thing is we just plain and simple don't know where the other two vampires came from, or where the Nazis planned to take the three of them. It's all just conjecture. The plan by it's nature was outrageous. You tell me you know what the limits are as to just how outrageous. Personally all I can do is guess.

For the record though, are you telling me picking up three vampires in separate locations defies logic, but transporting the 3 of them together to South America makes perfect sense? Aren't both proposals a little looney, and isn't that OK? 🙂
 
A transport in a U-boat across the pacific towards territory where no fighting is going on is easier than picking one up, than carrying across half the continent, pick up the next, travel with both of them across the continent again to pick up a third, don't you think?
 
Not necessarily, but just for the fun of it, let's discuss logistics.

First of all it's not a stretch to assume this has to be a secret operation. The fact that the American's don't seem to know what they've got until they snarf the German Sub suggests this.

I'm not sure Nostroyev could have been in Southern Russia, because that would necessitate getting the sub into the Black Sea. As I understand it the Turks had Black Sea access from the Mediterranean blocked to Naval traffic.

For the purposes of this conversation we can assume Nostroyev was being held in a port town on the East coast of the mediterranean. Let's put the Prince of Lies somewhere on the coast in the central Mediterrranean.

All three of these vampires had a certain amount of notoreity so I'm going to assume that's what the German's wanted. They didn't want to just scoop up a few average vamps off the street.

The German's discover these three notorious vamps they want are all in communities with relative easy access to the sea. Do they transport them by land, or do they transport them by sea?

It's a clandestine operation. The best way to do it secretively is by sub with 3 separate but co-ordinated operations along the mediterranean coast?
 
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