Question Question for ALL Shippers

[Nikkolas]

When I first said Spufy was gross and unhealthy, I was thinking of Season 6.

Then StarSlayer brought up Season 7 which wasn't nearly as bad and was kind of sweet at times.

Hence my "Touche", admitting he was right.

 

[Wishing Oceans]

When I first said Spufy was gross and unhealthy, I was thinking of Season 6.

Then StarSlayer brought up Season 7 which wasn't nearly as bad and was kind of sweet at times.

Hence my "Touche", admitting he was right.

Lol, StarSlayer is a she... 😉

Well, frankly, Season 6 Spuffy is not the representative of Spuffy as a whole, nor is all of Season 6 "gross and unhealthy". Not at all.
In fact, I addressed that in my Spuffy: S6 Style thread. (Side note: Wow, memories!) So I won't get too into that debate. 🙂

Hm, I don't think that I "ignore" anything about the opposing 'ship (meaning Bangel, of course). I will admit to skipping some Bangely scenes, but that's simply because I'm not at all fond of the 'ship. But that's just a personal preference, and it in no way affects my logic. Spuffy and Bangel are two different things, I don't need to ignore things about Bangel to make Spuffy seem "cooler" or whatever. 🙂

Zalos agrees: You skip Bangel scenes?! BLASPHEMY!

Only if they're long and I simply can't stand it anymore! But it's not skipping as much as fast-forwarding, or maybe turning the volume off... 😛

 

[Nikkolas]

I'm sorry and I'm sure you put a lot of work into your little talk about how S6 Spuffy isn't gross but nothing is nastier than having sex outside of what is essentially a McDonald's.

Nothing you can ever say will make me change my opinion on that.

 

[prophecygrrl]

I'm sorry and I'm sure you put a lot of work into your little talk about how S6 Spuffy isn't gross but nothing is nastier than having sex outside of what is essentially a McDonald's.

Nothing you can ever say will make me change my opinion on that.

It's just sex. 😵

IMO, I think it's pretty funny how the Spuffy relationship is always called unhealthy. I admit that I'm a Spuffy speaking here, but Bangel wasn't exactly healthy either. Buffy fell head over heels for him at seventeen, took it upon herself to singlehandedly nurse him back to health (and hid the truth from everyone she loved), and when he was in danger of dying, she set out to betray all her values and murder a human being. After failing to do so, she was willing to trade her life for his by letting him drink from her. Again, this all at age seventeen/eighteen? Even if it is ~*~*love*~*~, a lot of the wholly-consuming aspects of Bangel weren't so healthy either, as I recall. 😛 Not saying that Spuffy ISN'T unhealthy because in a lot of ways it is. Just pointing out the shipper glasses at work here.

edited to fix my grammar, lol. xD

 

[Wishing Oceans]

I'm sorry and I'm sure you put a lot of work into your little talk about how S6 Spuffy isn't gross but nothing is nastier than having sex outside of what is essentially a McDonald's.

Nothing you can ever say will make me change my opinion on that.

"Gross" is completely a matter of perspective. Also, that was one scene. I hate to be repetitive, but one scene does not represent the entirety of Spuffy Season 6.

 

[Nikkolas]

It's just sex. 😵

People don't even like to eat at fast food places. Imagine taking out your private parts near one of them.

Believe me, i'm no prude. If you want to have sex in public places, be my guest. But outside a McDonald's is just nasty. But maybe that's because I know too much about how nasty fast food places are.

IMO, I think it's pretty funny how the Spuffy relationship is always called unhealthy. I admit that I'm a Spuffy speaking here, but Bangel wasn't exactly healthy either. Buffy fell head over heels for him at seventeen, took it upon herself to singlehandedly nurse him back to health (and hid the truth from everyone she loved), and when he was in danger of dying, she set out to betray all her values and murder a human being. After failing to do so, she was willing to trade her life for his by letting him drink from her. Again, this all at age seventeen/eighteen? Even if it is ~*~*love*~*~, a lot of the wholly-consuming aspects of Bangel weren't so healthy either, as I recall. 😛 Not saying that Spuffy ISN'T unhealthy because in a lot of ways it is. Just pointing out the shipper glasses at work here.

edited to fix my grammar, lol. xD

Trading your life for the one you care about isn't unhealthy. It's the true act of love.

Buffy sleeping with Spike in Season 6 was an act of self-loathing and resentment towards her friends. It was not born out of love or anything resembling healthy affection.

Whatever it became, it did not start out healthy. That much should be obvious.

"Gross" is completely a matter of perspective. Also, that was one scene. I hate to be repetitive, but one scene does not represent the entirety of Spuffy Season 6.

I'll admit. I detest Season 6. It is nothing but bad writing, character derailment and contrived drama as far as I'm concerned.

So, I'm not objective. I am determined never to watch that horribleness ever again so the thing about Buffy and Spike doing it outside the fast food joint is most of what I remember about their relationship in the season.
Well that and the attempted rape.

 

[Justme]

People don't even like to eat at fast food places. Imagine taking out your private parts near one of them.

Believe me, i'm no prude. If you want to have sex in public places, be my guest. But outside a McDonald's is on the wrong side of slutsville.

Trading your life for the one you care about isn't unhealthy. It's the true act of love.

Buffy sleeping with Spike in Season 6 was an act of self-loathing and resentment towards her friends. It was not born out of love or anything resembling healthy affection.

Whatever it became, it did not start out healthy. That much should be obvious.

I'll admit. I detest Season 6. It is nothing but bad writing, character derailment and contrived drama as far as I'm concerned.

So, I'm not objective. I am determined never to watch that horribleness ever again so the thing about Buffy and Spike doing it outside the fast food joint is most of what I remember about their relationship in the season.
Well that and the attempted rape.

Whilst I agree with the rest of your post, the bit about fast food sex makes you sound a lil crazy.

Actually I don't agree with the other part either. If Spike was unhealthy so was Angel and I think in order for it to be "true love" (which I absolutely don't believe anyway) then you would have to be willing to give your life but the other person would be unwilling to take it. I agree with the Spike stuff though.

 

[Tillow4ever]

Well, I don't mind Woz. I actually like them together at the beginning when they are supposed to be together. Before she actually falls for the love of her life. 😉 I mean, he helped shape her into what she was meant to be... for Tara. You know?

And as for my other ships, Cangel and Spuffy, yes, I, like Ori, skip over Bangel scenes... sometimes... lol. But other than that, I can stand other ships, okay, maybe except for Killow. I don't like season 7 because of that.

 

[Wishing Oceans]

People don't even like to eat at fast food places. Imagine taking out your private parts near one of them.

Believe me, i'm no prude. If you want to have sex in public places, be my guest. But outside a McDonald's is on the wrong side of slutsville.

"Slutsville"? That wording is a bit judgmental...

I agree, that wasn't the best scene ever. But it's just ONE scene. There are plenty of other, more riveting scenes.

Trading your life for the one you care about isn't unhealthy. It's the true act of love.

I disagree. But I won't get into that. 😉

Buffy sleeping with Spike in Season 6 was an act of self-loathing and resentment towards her friends. It was not born out of love or anything resembling healthy affection.

Whatever it became, it did not start out healthy. That much should be obvious.

I'm curious: Do you mean "Start out healthy" as in starting in Season 6, or when it actually started? The actual start was Season 2.

Also, I feel that it's important to remember that Btvs is a fantasy t.v. show.

I'll admit. I detest Season 6. It is nothing but bad writing, character derailment and contrived drama as far as I'm concerned.

So, I'm not objective. I am determined never to watch that horribleness ever again so the thing about Buffy and Spike doing it outside the fast food joint is most of what I remember about their relationship in the season.
Well that and the attempted rape.

I see... Try watching it again. You might change your mind.

 

[Nikkolas]

Actually I don't agree with the other part either. If Spike was unhealthy so was Angel and I think in order for it to be "true love" (which I absolutely don't believe anyway) then you would have to be willing to give your life but the other person would be unwilling to take it. I agree with the Spike stuff though.

Well look at it this way.

You're dying. The love of your life can save you.

You can either:
A. let yourself die and inflict suffering and regret on them for the rest of their life.
or B. Let them die for you and you live with the guilt for the rest of your life.

Tough choices to make but B is more selfless.

Also Angel was dying. That clouds a person's judgment I reckon.

---------- Post added at 05:05 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:01 PM ----------

"Slutsville"? That wording is a bit judgmental...

I try not to judge Buffy. I even defend her in Season 7 which seems to be when people think she's at her worst.
But again, just can't stand Season 6. So I'm quick to judgment I suppose.

I'm curious: Do you mean "Start out healthy" as in starting in Season 6, or when it actually started? The actual start was Season 2.

Eh? When Spike sold out Angelus so he could leave town witH Dru? How did it start there?

I see... Try watching it again. You might change your mind.

I really doubt it. Maybe I will one of these days.

Even forgetting about Spuffy, there's Tara's dying and I made a whole other topic discussing how I think that's a metric tonne of bad writing.

 

[Justme]

Well look at it this way.

You're dying. The love of your life can save you.

You can either:
A. let yourself die and inflict suffering and regret on them for the rest of their life.
or B. Let them die for you and you live with the guilt for the rest of your life.

Tough choices to make but B is more selfless.

Also Angel was dying. That clouds a person's judgment I reckon.

It's really not, either "true love" is beyond logic or it isn't.

Firstly Angel wasn't in ANY state to make a decision with this level of rationale behind it.

Secondly it's catch-22.

Look at it this way the love of your life is dying, you can save them.

you can either:
A. let yourself die and inflict suffering and regret on them for the rest of their life.

or B. Let them die for you and you live with the guilt for the rest of your life.

See what I done did there?

 

[Tillow4ever]

OH! I forgot Xanya! I guess it's because I don't see Xander with anyone else... at all. lol

I guess I just really like the ships in the later seasons, excluding Killow of course. lol

 

[Nikkolas]

It's really not, either "true love" is beyond logic or it isn't.

Firstly Angel wasn't in ANY state to make a decision with this level of rationale behind it.

Secondly it's catch-22.

Look at it this way the love of your life is dying, you can save them.

you can either:
A. let yourself die and inflict suffering and regret on them for the rest of their life.

or B. Let them die for you and you live with the guilt for the rest of your life.

See what I done did there?

Sometimes in life you have to make choices where you lose either way.

There's also the fact that was an extreme circumstance. It's ridiculous to write offl their relationship as unhealthy because Angel happened to get poisoned by a plot device this one time.

So...I don't see the problem here. Buffy was willing to give her life for the person she loves. That isn't an act of love in your opinion.

I think you and I must have very different ideas of love and thus our arguing is just futile and a waste of time.

 

[Justme]

Sometimes in life you have to make choices where you lose either way.

There's also the fact that was an extreme circumstance. It's ridiculous to write offl their relationship as unhealthy because Angel happened to get poisoned by a plot device this one time.

So...I don't see the problem here. Buffy was willing to give her life for the person she loves. That isn't an act of love in your opinion.

I think you and I must have very different ideas of love and thus our arguing is just futile and a waste of time.

I didn't say that I write of their relationship because of that. Nor did I say that Buffy being willing to give her life wasn't an act of love.

Seriously where did I say this?

I think their relationship was unhealthy for a number of reasons most of which are mentioned during the show. The major one is age difference, and no not the vamp thing the fact that Buffy is 16 when he falls for her.

As for the whole act of love thing I suggest you go and re-read what I wrote in the first place.

 

[Nikkolas]

Perhaps I did misread. You kinda of jumbled up your points here.

Actually I don't agree with the other part either. If Spike was unhealthy so was Angel and I think in order for it to be "true love" (which I absolutely don't believe anyway) then you would have to be willing to give your life but the other person would be unwilling to take it. I agree with the Spike stuff though.

You started off by saying Angel's relationship was unhealthy then went on to immediately talk about Buffy dying for him. i drew a correlation between the two; you were saying her doing that was why their relationship was unhealthy.

That's my bad. I'm sleepy after all. And grumpy.

 

[Justme]

Perhaps I did misread. You kinda of jumbled up your points here.




You started off by saying Angel's relationship was unhealthy then went on to immediately talk about Buffy dying for him. i drew a correlation between the two; you were saying her doing that was why their relationship was unhealthy.

That's my bad. I'm sleepy after all. And grumpy.

Nah I just think it's one of them. It's one you were talking about so it's the one I mentioned. Being entirely unaware of the "ship wars" until recently I am only starting to take a more objective view of Bangel. I always hated Spuffy.

 

[StarSlayer]

I think we're getting a little off topic here, and I didn't want to go into shipping wars here (and most of you know that I'll always defend Spuffy) 🙂 So, I'm going to leave it at this: IMO, Spuffy did not start off as unhealthy. Even when they were mortal enemies, that was the game. It was good versus evil. Simple as that. As time progressed, they grew to be companions and a real love developed. Now, in the middle of s6, their relationship did take a turn toward being unhealthy because Buffy used Spike. The bathroom scene was also an extreme low point. However, something beautiful still came out of everything they've been through, as we saw in s7. You can agree or disagree with me, but that's all I'm gonna say on the subject, at least in this thread. 🙂

Okay...let's get back to the question at hand...

 

[GrrArghx]

No, I don't ignore 'ships to support my own. I have no reason to. My dislike (sometimes outright loathing) of Cangel or Spuffy has nothing to do with Bangel. I mean, look at Woz. I 'ship them, but that doesn't mean I can't love Twillow. Same goes for Fresley and Wilah. Or Cander and Xanya and Coyle and Cordy/Groo. Or Sprusilla and Dru/Angelus.

You get the idea.

 

[Kana]

I found this reply to a Bangel thread I found. Something I wrote when talking about what would happen if Buffy and Angel didn't end up together:

I mean to be honest there are only so many "I love you but we can't be togethers" you can hear before it starts to bug the crap out of you.

Oh right because they belong together right? Well...times change, "Always and Forever" becomes "Sometimes" and "If ever", that's proof that nothing is for certain.

Well nothing is for certain aside from true love. You see Bangel is seen as true love and true love can stand the test of time. The thing is, true love can only be tested by time. In other words, we'll see.

I think I still agree with this but I believe this applies to all ships, especially in the Verse.

I only ship Kavid in Six Feet Under which kind of worked out and Naley in OTH who are still togther because unlike many of he ships in the Verse they stood the test of time. There is enough in their relationships to make me think they could have ended up together.

I believe Tillow was one of the ships that was closest to this.

The problem for me with Bangel is the above and the Spuffy may be a work in progress but after Buffy's cookie dough speech I've never been more convinced of Buffy's ambivalence when it comes to either guy or relationships in general. It doesn't take a genius to work out she feels for both Angel and Spike but unless I've missed something she doesn't seem any more connected to one vampire over the other.

Love is a powerful thing but not immune to circumstance and choice. For Bangel, the uncertainty is of chance and fate which one may say is evidence that out of all the ships this is the one that is most likely to sail but as I've said time is an important factor.

From a narrative perspective I was more than satisfied with the how it ended for both of Buffy's ships:

She feels for both of them but isn't willing to define herself through a relationship. She's being more honest in those scenes than she's been been in a while. She cut herself off from Riley and used Spike in his soulless state but now she realised that being single isn't about being alone, but about finding herself. I'm not sure how I feel about her engaging with 'acrobatics' with Angel or playing tonsil tennis with Spike, but maybe it doesn't matter, but she should consider their feelings in all this if she hasn't made a choice. If I were to advise Buffy, I'd say keep things business like with both of them until she feels she can make a choice.

I was wondering about "Forever Love " or "Loving someone more than anything you will ever love". I'm looking for this kind of protestation from any of our lovers to each other because it doesn't predict the future but it solidifies a declaration of intent which is important.

I suppose for me the larger picture has always been important. My favourite seasons of Btvs are seasons 2, 3 and 6. This consists of the Bangel years and the possibly the darker side of Spuffy that Bangels tend to criticize. So what? The journey the characters go through present a larger picture than any of the relationships because essentially they are transient. IWRY was beautiful and the memory of it haunts with its bittersweet symphony but it doesn't mean I'll be disappointed if Bangel don't end up together. If did that I'd have missed the beauty of empathising with Riley or loving the unrefined passion and depth of Spuffy.

Don't get me wrong, I secret long for a happily ever after for all my favourite characters but who's to say their happy ending will be with each other? Just a thought.

 

[brinkster130]

I actually like most of the couples, I just like some more than others and feel like some are more serious, have more meaning, love is deeper etc. etc. I've never really felt the need to bash another ship to validate what I ship.

I love Angel/Buffy and always thought they should end up together. Riley was entertaining but the best thing about Angel leaving was Buffy/Spike. They were a funny couple and it was nice to see his growth. I wasnt a fan of Angel/Cordy but it was understandable...I mean if you spend enough time with someone you bound to fall for them at some point right?