Question For Spuffies/Bangels

[Gideon]

I know, yet another thread... but I feel I'm on a roll. 🙂

As a devoted Bangel, I like to think I'm relatively open minded and so I have been reading some Spuffy fanfiction. Fanfiction, I believe, is good for the soul.

Anyways, as someone who's read a lot of Bangel fanfiction, I notice that a lot of what I read has been largely charitable towards Spike; the authors deliberately confronting the issue of Buffy's affection for Spike and attempting to integrate it into what they feel is a greater love for Angel.

The first Spuffy fanfiction I read took an opposite approach towards Angel, painting him out to be, well, lol.... a douchebag whom Buffy ultimately cares nothing for.

Obviously I'm sure such character bashing exists on both sides, but I'm curious for both Bangels and Spuffies:

Bangels, taking canon into account, knowing that Buffy obviously cares a great deal for Angel, how do you take it? Do you think it's just sexual tension?

Spuffies, taking canon into account, how do you likewise handle Buffy's feelings for Angel?

Discuss! 🙂

 

[xaphania]

I said I'd stay out of these threads... ahh I can't help myself XD

The first Spuffy fanfiction I read took an opposite approach towards Angel, painting him out to be, well, lol.... a douchebag whom Buffy ultimately cares nothing for.

There is a lot of "Angel-bashing" in Spuffy fics... personally, I'm not a fan of it. It takes things too out of character. A little mocking from Spike is fine, sure, but it gets too much sometimes. So I tend to avoid those kinds of fics. That said, there are plenty of awesome fics that treat Angel just fine. Riley, on the other hand... 😛

Spuffies, taking canon into account, how do you likewise handle Buffy's feelings for Angel?

This is quite a generalised question so it's difficult to answer. There's so much variation in fic - you'd have to look at the season it's set in, whether or not the author is following the canon (eg. some fics have Angel never show up at all, or show up after Spike etc.), whether it's an all-human fic etc. etc.

But I think that canon authors (as opposed to fanon or all-human writers) who have a grasp of the characters, will not ignore Buffy's past feelings for Angel. You're not going to get declarations of love for him in a Spuffy fic, obviously, but I've read a lot of fics where the writer acknowledges that Buffy had feelings for and loved Angel, but that she's moved on and is ready to be with/fall in love with Spike.

Some Spuffy writers that I recommend, if you want to read some fic that doesn't have Angel-bashing: EnigmaticBlue, dampersandspoons, cousinjean, Anaross, GoldenUsagi (all at Elysian Fields)

 

[Gideon]

Thank you for the feedback and the recommendations!

But just to clarify: it's not so much a thread for fic authors as it is just fans in general.

I'd like to see how fans of each faction rationalize Buffy's feelings for Spike and Angel.

 

[xaphania]

Ah... I misunderstood. Well, it's still the same as I said in my previous post - I think that by the time Spike and Buffy begin their relationship, Buffy has moved on from Angel.

I think that she still has feelings for him, that he still holds part of her heart, but that the time for Buffy/Angel has passed.

Angel turns up right at the end of the series, but I think that was pure fanservice and is out of character for both Buffy and Angel at that point in time.

 

[white avenger]

Most of the Spuffy fan fictions that I've read never mention Angel at all, unless it's just to say that he's no longer around. I don't think that I've run across any Angel bashing stories, discounting the ones containing Angelus, of course.

 

[Wren Summers]

He was her first love. A part of her will always love him (Angel) and vice versa. Nothing can take that away. Kinda like...in the Buffy/Angel book "Cursed" there's this line (more like speech I guess) that Spike says to another character that kinda fits with what I'm trying to say,

"When I say flower to you," Spike said softly, "what do you think of?"

Lyanka waited for a short time before answering. "Purple lilac, I suppose."

"Why?"

"I don't know. It was my mother's favorite. We always seemed to have it around the vardo."

"And most likely lilac was what your mother used to teach you the word flower." Spike paused. "That's how it is with first loves, Lyanka. At least, that's the way it is for me. But life doesn't stp with first flowers or first loves. It continues on because there are more loves and more flowers."

 

[Joan the Vampire Slayer]

Spuffies, taking canon into account, how do you likewise handle Buffy's feelings for Angel?

I have no problem with how Buffy feels about Angel. He was her first love. I accept that. I love Angel. I love Buffy. I just don't love them together. Spuffy went through an incredible journey together; from enemies, to allies, to lovers, and eventually, to friends. She trusted Spike more than she ever trusted Angel. I ship Spuffy for what it was, sure - but most of all, I ship Spuffy for that it could have been. For their possibility together. They could have accomplished so much together. I wish she knew he was alive, she'd undoubtedly want him in her life again, I'm sure of it. He was her closest friend towards the end, and they were only staring to see their potential together. She had her own demons to face as he had his own battles to fight. Spuffy is an unstoppable team.

Taking canon into effect? Well, obviously, Buffy needs to be informed that Spike is alive before anything can really be ascertained, really. It was obvious, by her actions, that she deeply cared for Spike. The last word she utters in the TV series is his name. We're left with that last image for a reason.

How do I handle her feelings for Angel? I can deal with it. She will always love him. She said it and I believe her. And I know I'm an anomaly in the Spuffy Shippers Club because I'm one of the few who doesn't believe she loved him when she said it in 'Chosen'. YET, I believe she was very close to fully giving herself emotionally to him, and God knows I wish they'd been given the chance to really explore their potential together.

Her feelings for Angel don't bother me because I know they can never be together. Unless Angel becomes permanently human, it can't work with them. Angel has his mission. It's a part of who he is. He's a hero, and heroes often end up alone, unfortunately. He's proven time and time again that his mission is his true love - not her. He's chosen "the good fight" over her and he's made his decision. I don't doubt he loves her, but not enough to give up everything for her. Where they left it was that he "wasn't getting any older", and he would wait for her and she could come to him when she was ready. But there's no guarantee that he will ever be in a position where they can truly consummate their love. In other words, I don't see Angel as a threat to Spuffy as a result of this fact.

But hell, all I want to is my two favorite characters to be happy. I know for a fact that Buffy makes Spike happy. She inspires him, believes in him, and yes, probably loves him. She inspired him to self-improve. Could Spike make Buffy happy? I believe so. In contrast, all Angel ever brought upon Buffy was pain. Angel, Riley, and her father left her. Spike never left her. Dying doesn't count ;p

If there is a future for Bangel, it's a long road ahead forged with blood, sweat, tears, and most of all, compromise. Angel would have to give up his hero complex and Buffy would have to learn to trust him again.

(Also, on another note, I ship Cangel all the way. So of course I don't think Angel belongs with Buffy. 😉

And as a last end comment, don't get me wrong, I don't hate Bangel. Their relationship is fantastically dramatic and mushily romantic, the stuff good story is made out of. But the impermanence of it is part of that beauty. That makes it so classic and endearing is that it was doomed from the start.

---------- Post added at 01:25 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:23 PM ----------

Angel turns up right at the end of the series, but I think that was pure fanservice and is out of character for both Buffy and Angel at that point in time.

I couldn't agree more with this.

 

[Gideon]

That was an articulate and well-crafted answer, Joan! 🙂

I would only disagree with two points: Angel's true love being "the mission" and that his appearance at the end of season seven was fan service.

If anything, Angel was more than willing to give up the mission for Buffy, until he discovered that such an action would hasten her death.

 

[white avenger]

Spuffies, taking canon into account, how do you likewise handle Buffy's feelings for Angel?

Discuss! 🙂

Buffy loved Angel. Angel loved Buffy. They always will. That in no way rules out either or both of them loving someone else just as much or even more. That's what first love is really about. First love teaches you how to be in love.

 

[Joan the Vampire Slayer]

That was an articulate and well-crafted answer, Joan! 🙂

I would only disagree with two points: Angel's true love being "the mission" and that his appearance at the end of season seven was fan service.

If anything, Angel was more than willing to give up the mission for Buffy, until he discovered that such an action would hasten her death.

Ha, well, when it comes to Spike/Buffy/Angel I tend to have a lot to say 😉

I's disagree that Angel was willing to give up the mission for her. Nothing had changed. Why could they have been together then if they couldn't have before? What evidence was there to support he was willing to give it up for her at that point?

 

[Kean]

Just on this whole "giving up the mission" discussion...why should either of them give up their missions for each other? I don't see how that benefits the relationship or proves the worth of their love one way or another? I personally find the fact that Buffy and Angel are so dedicated to their causes an even more appealing aspect of their relationship. Their missions aren't just Buffy and Angel's jobs, it's who they are. They know that, have accpeted that...it has never been a question , at least not with the characters themselves. They literally hold the world in their hands at times, of course they have to put their personal feelings aside. I think it shows how mature a relationship they actually have. They see that their time isn't now but they live in hope for a someday, when they can put their weapons down. I would be horribly disappionted in both of them if they just dropped their lives works to tag along with the other. It isn't who they are.

 

[white avenger]

Is there some reason why we can't just agree that Buffy loves, is IN LOVE WITH, both men at different stages of her life? I can accept that high school Buffy was in love with Angel, that college Buffy was in love with Riley, and that, at least by the latter part of Season 7, General Buffy was in love with Spike. That isn't saying that she doesn't still love her former men, or even that she won't fall in love with someone else in either the near or distant future. I've said before, and I sincerely believe even now, that the person that Buffy will spend her life with most likely hasn't even been introduced into the storyline yet, and may never be.
"Love is the Slayer's gift." Remember that?

 

[laianna]

I agree with everybody. When I first saw Buffy, I thought her and Angel should be together. When Angel left the show and Spike came into the picture, I thought she should be with Spike. Angel was Buffy's first and as said by others above, she'll always love him for that. Also, their breakup wasn't something horrible-- he left her because he loved her and so I think there are a lot of unresolved feelings there. She was forced to move on with her life, but that doesn't mean that she ever moved on from him. Also, their relationship was a very dramatic and angsty kind of love, the kind you see in movies where they're completely in love with eachother, so much so that they actually can't be together for ___(fill-in-the-blank)___ reason. It's the ultimate heart-wrenching head-over-heels kind of thing and I don't think you just get over that. Angel is heroic and mysterious, the ultimate "tall, dark and handsome" that every girl strives for and he's also sweet and thoughtful on the inside. For him, she was the "one," you know? The original, "one" who could make him happy. He watched her and latched onto her like he had to no one else before (not counting Darla because he apparently didn't love her after all) and so for him it's probably kind of a big deal that she's moved on for him because in a way the experience was kind of his "first love" too. I imagine that these feelings would not go away ever because they never had a proper breakup (as evidenced by the canonical kisses in Forever and Chosen, they still feel like it's acceptable to act like they're together even after all that time).

With Spike, I feel like their relationship began a looong time ago, back in season 2. She lusted for him and hated herself for it. She denied those feelings because of him not having a soul and all, but they were still there. When she finally gave in, she realized that he would quite literally do anything for her, and that was obviously very touching. Their relationship ended when he tried to rape her, but she still had feelings for him then I think. Notice how she never un-invited him to her house, and was perfectly willing to drop Dawn at his crypt even after he did that? Over time, as he got his soul and everything, they became good friends, and I truley believe that if she knew he was alive (we really need clarification on that!) she'd still feel that kind of friendship for him at least. She knows the "real" him, the bit that nobody else sees. He puts on the tough guy show for everybody else, but they had chemistry from the start and that would not just end abruptly if she was back with Angel or something. Pre-season 6, I would say their relationship was just lust, but at least by Chosen, it's progressed into something real. As someone above said, their relationship had the potential to become something better, but I feel like they would have the strongest chance of getting back together. She would trust him and be more willing to be with him than Angel, I think, simply because she seemed closer to him in general and also because if you believe Andrew, she doesn't trust Angel anymore for taking over Wolfram&Hart.

 

[Silum]

Great thread! And welcome to BB! ..Surpisingly, this is a pretty new thread on the bangel/spuffy take so im interested to see responses....

I consider myself a Spuffy shipper so ill answer your question from this perspective: I think Buffys feelings for Angel represent first love. Undoubtedly, in my opinion. Mainly because they represent exactly what I have seen in my own life and the over dramaticness of first loves and how disconnected they are from our adult lives...

Contrast this with the adult relationship between Buffy and Spike and I feel this is fairly well represented without me going into much detail...


Angel
Their are a few probelms I have with the Buffy and Angel relationship that I just feel are inexcusable and have to be blindly overlooked to actually appreciate the relationship. Angel is 240 odd years old, and is dating a 16 year old... Now, I get that love can transend age quite easily, I have experienced this myself... but this is quite shocking and would need a great deal of interpretation on behlaf of the writers to resolve...they dont. Instead, Angel is actually shown stalking Buffy when she is 15, and he is presumably 139. He stalks her and then tells her later that the minute he saw her 15 year old self, he was in love. Im sorry, but it just reaks of creepy child abuse. Ok, lets pretend he is only 25 or so, when he was turned, still, its the exact same issue for me....

Can it be resolved? NO. Later in S4, Angel shows the exact same behavious in Pangs when he stalks Buffy from a distance. ...To be honest, this is only surface level stuff... at the end of the day, Angel just doesnt deserve Buffy. Angel is not a character to be admired, and the only reason he is.... is his good looks.

Angel was a monster even BEFORE he was turned into a vampire, he was a useless drunken slave to his own desires as a human, then he was the worse vampire in history, then he was a bum and rat eater for a hundred years...then he was a Buffy stalker....how is ANY of that honourable??

Spike
The counter argument? ... Funny, I dont even need to dedicate much time to this one. Spike was an equally crappy vampire, yet even the humanity inside of this monster was enough for him to try and free himself. Upon earning* his soul, he is the man that Buffy deserves. Hence, the very easy conclusion I make that Spike and Buffy make sense. I'm not deluded by some false hope in the idea of 'first love' which in this case consisted of Angel.

*note that Spike earned his soul and was not just subjected to it.

 

[laianna]

I think you make a good point. I'd completely forgotten the soul thing.

But even though I think I'm more Spuffy than Bangel, I have to ask... Does this mean that you don't believe Angel deserves a second chance? You think that he should suffer forever, never finding happiness because of his actions over a century previous? I'm also not sure I see eye to eye on your insinuation that Angel was the cradle-robbing, stalker type. He saw it as his job to protect her when he made the agreement with Whistler and help her along. Though his actions in Pangs were a little shady, I don't know if I'd consider it stalking. He was trying to protect her. As Angelus, THAT was stalking. Is it considered stalking if she knows about it and only half minds? But I don't know, I'm actually thinking of later, in The Girl in Question, when he had men tailing her... I think he just cared about her and felt that it was best for her not to know. When they first "fell in love," she was really the only girl in his life. Hmm, this is getting hard to justify... =/

 

[Kean]

Angel
Their are a few probelms I have with the Buffy and Angel relationship that I just feel are inexcusable and have to be blindly overlooked to actually appreciate the relationship. Angel is 240 odd years old, and is dating a 16 year old... Now, I get that love can transend age quite easily, I have experienced this myself... but this is quite shocking and would need a great deal of interpretation on behlaf of the writers to resolve...they dont. Instead, Angel is actually shown stalking Buffy when she is 15, and he is presumably 139. He stalks her and then tells her later that the minute he saw her 15 year old self, he was in love. Im sorry, but it just reaks of creepy child abuse. Ok, lets pretend he is only 25 or so, when he was turned, still, its the exact same issue for me....

Can it be resolved? NO. Later in S4, Angel shows the exact same behavious in Pangs when he stalks Buffy from a distance. ...To be honest, this is only surface level stuff... at the end of the day, Angel just doesnt deserve Buffy. Angel is not a character to be admired, and the only reason he is.... is his good looks.

Angel was a monster even BEFORE he was turned into a vampire, he was a useless drunken slave to his own desires as a human, then he was the worse vampire in history, then he was a bum and rat eater for a hundred years...then he was a Buffy stalker....how is ANY of that honourable??

Spike
The counter argument? ... Funny, I dont even need to dedicate much time to this one. Spike was an equally crappy vampire, yet even the humanity inside of this monster was enough for him to try and free himself. Upon earning* his soul, he is the man that Buffy deserves. Hence, the very easy conclusion I make that Spike and Buffy make sense. I'm not deluded by some false hope in the idea of 'first love' which in this case consisted of Angel.

*note that Spike earned his soul and was not just subjected to it.

Do you believe in redemption? in making amends? in change?

It seems that you can see and appreciate all those qualities o in Spike's character but not in Angel. You have commended Spike for things you have ridiculed Angel for.

 

[white avenger]

Bangels, taking canon into account, knowing that Buffy obviously cares a great deal for Angel, how do you take it? Do you think it's just sexual tension?

Spuffies, taking canon into account, how do you likewise handle Buffy's feelings for Angel?

Discuss! 🙂

Being unable to speak for the Bangel contingent and reluctant to set myself up as the spokesman for my own group, I can give only my own opinion in this matter. Canon considered, I believe that Angel is the stereotypical romantic hero. Tall, dark, mysterious, tortured by the sins of his past, struggling to become a better man, distrusted by the people he wants to protect, despised by his own kind...The people at Harlequin Romance Publishing have been making a steady living off of men just like him for decades. No adolescent girl, with what amounts to no previous experience with romance, could resist such a specimen. The character was written that way, and the actor played him that way. That's all canon, and there's no sane person who could deny it. That is the answer to the original question as it was asked.

Since there is no question here about whether adolescent, inexperienced, Buffy would ever grow into a more experienced and wiser young woman capable of reassessing those earlier emotions from a more adult point of view, I will not comment further.

 

[Joan the Vampire Slayer]

I think you make a good point. I'd completely forgotten the soul thing.

But even though I think I'm more Spuffy than Bangel, I have to ask... Does this mean that you don't believe Angel deserves a second chance? You think that he should suffer forever, never finding happiness because of his actions over a century previous? I'm also not sure I see eye to eye on your insinuation that Angel was the cradle-robbing, stalker type. He saw it as his job to protect her when he made the agreement with Whistler and help her along. Though his actions in Pangs were a little shady, I don't know if I'd consider it stalking. He was trying to protect her. As Angelus, THAT was stalking. Is it considered stalking if she knows about it and only half minds? But I don't know, I'm actually thinking of later, in The Girl in Question, when he had men tailing her... I think he just cared about her and felt that it was best for her not to know. When they first "fell in love," she was really the only girl in his life. Hmm, this is getting hard to justify... =/

There is a thread somewhere on here where we discussed the issue of Angel being a 'cradle-robber' and a stalker. You might want to check it out. It's probably in the Inside Out section.

 

[Kean]

Joan the Vampire Slayer agrees: Well, Angel would have to give up being a champion to be human, if he ever wanted to be with Buffy...because of the curse.

Yes but as it stands now, if Angel becomes human it will be because he has earned it and fullfilled his destiny not because he slit has hand open. That is a totally different situation then IWRY...he was only at the start of his mission, not the end.

 

[Silum]

You think that he should suffer forever, never finding happiness because of his actions over a century previous?

Nope. I have the view unequivquably, that the vampire without his soul is completely separate from the vampire with his soul (this is one of the reasons I so readily accept the new Spike without misconceptions about him trying to 'rape' Buffy, or driving spikes through peoples heads!). Angel has the right to be a new man, and in his favour, he does mourn his actions once he gains his soul...but all the same being a pathetic mess wasting away in allys. His prerogative i suppose. I don't have a problem with Buffy and Angel because he used to be evil if thats what you're asking. I dont mind Angel and Buffy being together, I loved it. But if i'm answering the question Angel or Spike, I am going to see how they act and who is more deserving. I believe Angel doesn't deserve Buffy.

...A few more reasons? In 'I will remember you', he does the exact same as Willow to Tara imo when he destroys the day and takes that wonderful day of both Buffy and Angel making love and being happy. This gives me a little insight into his character, he gets to hold on to memories of that day while Buffys mind is erased of that experience. For what? protection? Thats not his right. And besides, didnt he spend the next 4 years trying to shanshu his way to being human again!?? Later.... after Faith had slept with Riley, and Buffy came to LA, i dont think i could have seen a more one sided, narrow minded point of view as we did with Angels.

I'm also not sure I see eye to eye on your insinuation that Angel was the cradle-robbing, stalker type. He saw it as his job to protect her when he made the agreement with Whistler and help her along. Though his actions in Pangs were a little shady, I don't know if I'd consider it stalking. He was trying to protect her.

I have no problems with Angel being protective, but when he is observing Buffy as a 15 year old, that is all I would expect it to be, and at 16 I wouldn't expect this protectiveness to wander. The trouble is, Angel said, from the first minute he saw her, he was in love. That he wanted to protect her heart like it was his own or some such. In order to get past these things to appreciate the relationship, you basically have to just ignore the creepiness and picture Angel as not the 240 year old, or the 25 year old that he looks like.

Do you believe in redemption? in making amends? in change?

It seems that you can see and appreciate all those qualities o in Spike's character but not in Angel. You have commended Spike for things you have ridiculed Angel for.

Then it seems i've been misunderstood. I do believe in redemption and change, Angel is a new man once he gets a soul. What have I commeneded Spike for but ridiculed Angel for? Spike I commend because of what he did while subjected to a soul, which showed his humanity bursting through. I ridicule Angel because he never did such a thing, then with a soul he did jack squat (save for a little time in a submarine!) for a hundred years...then fell in love with a 15 year old. The relationship itself was always fasinating, and lovely to watch the two in love dont get me wrong..but again, it was a first love, full of epic drama and overexagerated emotions. ...."I feel like I want to die when i'm with you"