Question For Spuffies/Bangels

[Joan the Vampire Slayer]

Yes but as it stands now, if Angel becomes human it will be because he has earned it and fullfilled his destiny not because he slit has hand open. That is a totally different situation then IWRY...he was only at the start of his mission, not the end.

If it is true that Angel really could become permanently human, and that he would be happy and content with that (as in he felt he was truly finished) - that would be a different story. I'm not current on the comics so I don't really know what is happening in the Angelverse as of late. Do you think Buffy would have him back, even then? She doesn't appear to trust him the last I heard, and she is dating a girl now. I lot has changed. I don't think they could go back to the way they were. What if Spike shows up? Her best friend (arguably) and Angel around at the same time? That could complicate things a bit.

Also, no one here has made the obvious point. Just because you love someone, doesn't mean you can make it work. That's what has always been so relatable to be about Bangel. The main argument for their 'forever' can not be that they love each other - their lives, goals, and needs have to fit together as well.

 

[Kean]

Then it seems i've been misunderstood. I do believe in redemption and change, Angel is a new man once he gets a soul. What have I commeneded Spike for but ridiculed Angel for? Spike I commend because of what he did while subjected to a soul, which showed his humanity bursting through. I ridicule Angel because he never did such a thing, then with a soul he did jack squat (save for a little time in a submarine!) for a hundred years...then fell in love with a 15 year old...then the stalking begins. The relationship itself was always fasinating, and lovely to watch the two in love dont get me wrong..but again, it was a first love, full of epic drama and overexagerated emotions. ...."I feel like I want to die when i'm with you"

I think we are crossing wires here 🙂 I'm not taking issue with what you said about his relationship with Buffy. I'm fairly sure we are on the opposite ends of that discussion lol but when you spoke about Angel and how he was a scoundrel when he was human, a stalker, how he wasted a hundred years after he had be cursed and how he wasn't honourable and then went on to say how Spike earned his soul and thus, that made Spike a man worthy of Buffy I thought it was a bit odd. Spike went through trials for his soul much the same way that Angel went through trials for Darla's life. That doesn't necessarily mean he earned his soul, or that he had done enough good deeds before hand to warrant getting one. Up until the night he left Sunnydale Spike was a souless vampire, one of the worst the world had seen. He revelled in evil. Apart from his devotion to Buffy, which at times included stalking her, stealing her underwear and having a sexbot of her made, I don't see what he had done to earn his soul?

 

[Joan the Vampire Slayer]

...A few more reasons? In 'I will remember you', he does the exact same as Willow to Tara imo when he destroys the day and takes that wonderful day of both Buffy and Angel making love and being happy. This gives me a little insight into his character, he gets to hold on to memories of that day while Buffys mind is erased of that experience. For what? protection? Thats not his right. And besides, didnt he spend the next 4 years trying to shanshu his way to being human again!?? Later.... after Faith had slept with Riley, and Buffy came to LA, i dont think i could have seen a more one sided, narrow minded point of view as we did with Angels.
"

I'm glad you brought this up. The decision he made in IWRY is a perfect example of what I can't stand about Angel; his un-yielding ability to make serious decisions based on what he thinks is the 'right thing to do' without taking anyone else's feelings into consideration or the consequences. Angel always plays God, and thinks he knows what's right for everyone. Maybe in that episode, Buffy didn't want her mind altered, maybe she would have wanted to remember that day. The point is that Angel does not have the right to mess with people's lives on the level he does. There are constant examples of him taking 'the law' into his own hands throughout the show. With Conner, by choosing to kill him and trust W&H to give him a new life, he didn't think about what might happen down the road if Conner started to get his memory back, and he certainly didn't think about what would happen if Cordy woke up and realized Conner was no longer there.

 

[Kean]

If it is true that Angel really could become permanently human, and that he would be happy and content with that (as in he felt he was truly finished) - that would be a different story. I'm not current on the comics so I don't really know what is happening in the Angelverse as of late. Do you think Buffy would have him back, even then? She doesn't appear to trust him the last I heard, and she is dating a girl now. I lot has changed. I don't think they could go back to the way they were. What if Spike shows up? Her best friend (arguably) and Angel around at the same time? That could complicate things a bit.

Also, no one here has made the obvious point. Just because you love someone, doesn't mean you can make it work. That's what has always been so relatable to be about Bangel. The main argument for their 'forever' can not be that they love each other - their lives, goals, and needs have to fit together as well.

Excuse the cookie analogy, but if Buffy felt she was ready to be with someone, finally and Angel had completed his mission and earned his reward, I can completely see them giving it a go.

As for Spike, well I don't see him standing in Buffy's way if who she wants is Angel. No more than I think Angel would truly stand in her way, in fact he has made a point of being out of her way when it comes to her finding happiness.

You're right, love isn't always enough and Bangel is the poster couple for that but if they were given a genuine shot to be together, I don't see how it wouldn't work.

 

[Joan the Vampire Slayer]

Excuse the cookie analogy, but if Buffy felt she was ready to be with someone, finally and Angel had completed his mission and earned his reward, I can completely see them giving it a go.

As for Spike, well I don't see him standing in Buffy's way if who she wants is Angel. No more than I think Angel would truly stand in her way, in fact he has made a point of being out of her way when it comes to her finding happiness.

You're right, love isn't always enough and Bangel is the poster couple for that but if they were given a genuine shot to be together, I don't see how it wouldn't work.

Well, for Bangels everywhere, I sure hope it works out 🙂

Although, I'm not ruling out a Spuffy reunion. And I'm I'm not even talking romantic necessarily - I'd just love to see the two back into the fight together, as the close friends and allies they were in S7.

 

[Silum]

I think we are crossing wires here 🙂 I'm not taking issue with what you said about his relationship with Buffy. I'm fairly sure we are on the opposite ends of that discussion lol but when you spoke about Angel and how he was a scoundrel when he was human, a stalker, how he wasted a hundred years after he had be cursed and how he wasn't honourable and then went on to say how Spike earned his soul and thus, that made Spike a man worthy of Buffy I thought it was a bit odd. Spike went through trials for his soul much the same way that Angel went through trials for Darla's life. That doesn't necessarily mean he earned his soul, or that he had done enough good deeds before hand to warrant getting one. Up until the night he left Sunnydale Spike was a souless vampire, one of the worst the world had seen. He revelled in evil. Apart from his devotion to Buffy, which at times included stalking her, stealing her underwear and having a sexbot of her made, I don't see what he had done to earn his soul?

I guess the unbelievable importance of a vampire wanting to obtain his soul is what seems different between us. I'm not sure what meaning you consider his actions in looking after Dawn when Buffy had died, or any of his actions with dawn for that matter, but they tell me that a vampire is saved by his own humanity. I think any true selfless act on behalf of a vampire separates them from the crowd. Spikes love for Buffy, and his actions to prove this, aren't superficial to me, they are the reason I believe Spike deserves Buffy*

Angel was completely devoid of humanity as a vampire (Mr big Blue thing....lol) told us that. None of those are my reasons though, its his character (ensouled), of which ive given plenty of examples that lead me to believe he doesnt deserve Buffy.

*Mind you, I'm a big Buffy shipper, meaning, i really think that Buffys true love is still waiting for her... and she deserves far more than even Spike... I believe she deserves even more for everything she's done.

 

[Kean]

Well, for Bangels everywhere, I sure hope it works out 🙂

Although, I'm not ruling out a Spuffy reunion. And I'm I'm not even talking romantic necessarily - I'd just love to see the two back into the fight together, as the close friends and allies they were in S7.

I'd love to see the Spuffy friendship of season 7 again! I really and truly loved that. I think she could really do with a friend like that right now.

I hope it works out for us too lol I just hope IWRY isn't our only glimpse of what B/A could have been.

 

[Kean]

I guess the unbelievable importance of a vampire wanting to obtain his soul is what seems different between us. I'm not sure what you considered his actions in looking after Dawn when Buffy had died, or any of his actions with dawn for that matter mean to you, but they tell me that a vampire is saved by his own humanity. I think any true selfless act on behalf of a vampire separates them from the crowd. Spikes love for Buffy, and his actions to prove this, aren't superficial to me, they are the reason I believe Spike deserves Buffy*

Angel was completely devoid of humanity as a vampire (Mr big Blue thing....lol) told us that. None of those are my reasons though, its his character (ensouled), of which ive given plenty of examples that lead me to believe he doesnt deserve Buffy.

*Mind you, I'm a big Buffy shipper, meaning, i really think that Buffys true love is still waiting for her... and she deserves far more than even Spike... I believe she deserves even more for everything she's done.

As far as Spike's relationships with Dawn, and even Joyce, I'm fairly with you in thinking it set Spike apart but it doesn't negate from the other rather unsavourary things he was doing at the time. I suppose where we are really differing here is that you see things through Spike's eyes and I see them through Angel's. I empathise with Angel's struggle a hell of alot more than I do with Spike's. It was the same person that inspired Spike and Angel to reclaim their souls and I can't help but feel Angel will always be at a disadvantage in this discussion because it was a hundred years before he knew her, whereas Spike, when he was neutered (like Angel) already knew Buffy.

 

[white avenger]

if they were given a genuine shot to be together, I don't see how it wouldn't work.

I do.

(but then, that's no real surprise, is it?)

 

[Gideon]

I am so stupid, lol.

I just now noticed how nonsensical the question is.

The question should read: Bangels, how do you reconcile Buffy's feelings for Spike (not Angel)?

 

[holz]

Obviously Buffy is meant to be with Angel, by taking Canon into affect I will show you why this is the case. Also as a side note as proven through the Angel season 6 Comic Books the true Vampire with a Soul as told in the Shanshu Prophecy is Angel. Angel was cursed with a soul, Spike got his to impress a girl and really Spike with a soul is the same thing as Spike without a soul, as even with a soul he makes mention of how much he enjoys killing and eating humans whereas Angel shows remorse.

Buffy and Angel are Soul Mates, always have been and always will be. In the Buffy finale she didn't need to think when she saw Angel she just reacted, with tongue. The love she has for Angel is, to paraphrase Spike ironically, Epic; they'll never be friends because they feel too much. The only reason Buffy ever got together with Spike was because HE WAS THERE, after she came back she needed to see Angel. Angel lived or unlived or whatever you call it for Buffy, to love her, honour her, everything. They are Soul Mates. Just like Buffy said she will always be his girl, always. Forever, that's the whole point. Spike was always a poor man's Angel. He offered to kill Dru to prove his love for Buffy; Angel actually killed his sire for her. In the final battle Angel gave Buffy the amulet, she wouldn't let him wear it; she trusted him with her legacy, to honor her memory. Spike was always just a substitute for the real deal. Do you think she would feed herself to Spike like she did Angel?

To Buffy the mission is what matters. To Angel you fight the good fight whichever way you can. To Spike he doesn't give a piss about atonement or destiny.

Spike has been right on two occassions; Buffy and Angel are EPIC and Buffy wasn't in love with him.

If you don't believe me just check out the messages from the boss man himself; Joss Whedon:

Buffy in Season 7 Episode 'Selfless'- I killed Angel. Do you even remember that? I would've given up everything I had to be with- I loved him more than I will ever love anything in this life and I put a sword through his heart because I had to.

Joss Whedon on the Buffy/Spike Relationship (Chosen Commentary)- The relationship should be complicated and yet come to a place of trust without saying 'now they become lovers again' because that would be wrong.'

Joss Whedon on the Buffy/Angel Relationship (Chosen Commentary)- I had to give them hope that one day Buffy and Angel might be together because that is ultimately what people want.

Joss Whedon Quote- Buffy loves Angel, he loves her and i love ho-hos.

 

[white avenger]

Commentary)- I had to give them hope that one day Buffy and Angel might be together because that is ultimately what people want.

Joss Whedon Quote- Buffy loves Angel, he loves her and i love ho-hos.

Obviously, that's not what ALL of the people want, or we wouldn't be having this discussion.

Buffy loves Spike, he loves her, and I love raspberry Zingers.

 

[Wren Summers]

Obviously Buffy is meant to be with Angel, by taking Canon into affect I will show you why this is the case.

I think she was originally, but then Spike came into the storyline and now for a lot of people, it went up in the air.

Also as a side note as proven through the Angel season 6 Comic Books the true Vampire with a Soul as told in the Shanshu Prophecy is Angel. Angel was cursed with a soul, Spike got his to impress a girl

What does this have anything to do with it?? Yes, Angel was one of the worst evils around and because of it, was cursed with a soul to feel remorse. Spike was another one of those horrible evils, was inflicted with a chip, fell in-love, realize he was still fairly evil (according to Seeing Red, cringe), and went to get a soul to rectify the problem to be worthy of Buffy.

and really Spike with a soul is the same thing as Spike without a soul, as even with a soul he makes mention of how much he enjoys killing and eating humans whereas Angel shows remorse.

Uh, not entirely. Spike with a soul does show a little remorse (rather a lot in season 7) and does actually begin to help people to help them, not just because of Buffy (Angel season 5). Also, he does show remorse for killing and eating humans. It isn't until Buffy tells him that she wants the old season 2 Spike back (in get it done) that Spike goes back to being a little (lol) more vicious. Before that, he was getting beaten up pretty bad because he didn't "relish the kill as much these days" because of his soul. Oh and another quote, this time from Sleeper "Buffy, I can barely live with what I did. It haunts me. All of it."

Buffy and Angel are Soul Mates, always have been and always will be. In the Buffy finale she didn't need to think when she saw Angel she just reacted, with tongue. The love she has for Angel is, to paraphrase Spike ironically, Epic; they'll never be friends because they feel too much. The only reason Buffy ever got together with Spike was because HE WAS THERE,

I think it was a little more than that personally and I think Buffy did too (one of the reasons why it killed her so much in season 6, because she actually felt something for him when she felt like she shouldn't. Matter of fact, she actually admits she has feelings for him at one point too). So I think that's oversimplifying the whole Spike/Buffy relationship a ton.

after she came back she needed to see Angel. Angel lived or unlived or whatever you call it for Buffy, to love her, honour her, everything. They are Soul Mates. Just like Buffy said she will always be his girl, always. Forever, that's the whole point. Spike was always a poor man's Angel.
He offered to kill Dru to prove his love for Buffy; Angel actually killed his sire for her.

I think the situations were a little different there. If Darla had backed off the way Dru had, I really don't think Angel would have killed Darla, but it really doesn't matter.

In the final battle Angel gave Buffy the amulet, she wouldn't let him wear it; she trusted him with her legacy, to honor her memory.

I saw that a little differently from you. To Buffy, Angel was and has always been her champion, but here, she actually sends him away, goes to see Spike, effectively calls him a champion, and gives him the necklace. So I saw that as a torch being passed thing, but to each their own.

Spike was always just a substitute for the real deal. Do you think she would feed herself to Spike like she did Angel?

She was getting there, really getting there, by the end of seven. I can see why she wouldn't want to feel that way about him, or anyone else for that matter, the way she did Angel, because boy, he did a number on her. So yeah, I think she can and pretty much did.

To Buffy the mission is what matters. To Angel you fight the good fight whichever way you can. To Spike he doesn't give a piss about atonement or destiny.

Yeah, Spike does, the whole Lindsay "Doyle", Spike's destiny arc in Season 5 proves that. Spike actually thought he had a destiny and he cared about it.

Spike has been right on two occassions; Buffy and Angel are EPIC and Buffy wasn't in love with him.

Yes, Buffy and Angel were epic, but so are Spike and Buffy. As for the whole "Buffy wasn't in-love with Spike" thing, we differ again.

If you don't believe me just check out the messages from the boss man himself; Joss Whedon:

Buffy in Season 7 Episode 'Selfless'- I killed Angel. Do you even remember that? I would've given up everything I had to be with- I loved him more than I will ever love anything in this life and I put a sword through his heart because I had to.

Don't disagree, but notice the past tense, I "loved" him. The loving him more than anything else part I agree with because she loved him first and intensely for many reasons. So yeah, she probably did, at the time, love him more than anything else, still remembers how that first, intense, loving relationship feeling felt, and yeah. I'm not explaining myself well"¦ *frowns*

Joss Whedon on the Buffy/Spike Relationship (Chosen Commentary)- The relationship should be complicated and yet come to a place of trust without saying 'now they become lovers again' because that would be wrong.'

Yes, jumping back into the whole lovers thing again without rebuilding trust would have been wrong. They had and have a lot to work through, so do Buffy and Angel if they were to ever get together again.

Joss Whedon on the Buffy/Angel Relationship (Chosen Commentary)- I had to give them hope that one day Buffy and Angel might be together because that is ultimately what people want.

Exactly, in the last episode Joss tried to play both sides of the street, give Bangels hope for the future and give Spuffies Buffy's "I love you". As for the ultimately what people want, that's not true, and he knows that. That's why he played both sides and has yet to have Buffy choose.

Joss Whedon Quote- Buffy loves Angel, he loves her and i love ho-hos.

Yeah, but Buffy also loves Spike, Spike loves her"¦

 

[Silum]

Obviously Buffy is meant to be with Angel, by taking Canon into affect I will show you why this is the case.

Spike has been right on two occassions; Buffy and Angel are EPIC and Buffy wasn't in love with him.

...

If you don't believe me just check out the messages from the boss man himself; Joss Whedon:

Joss Whedon on the Buffy/Angel Relationship (Chosen Commentary)- I had to give them hope that one day Buffy and Angel might be together because that is ultimately what people want.

I wont disect your post because it seems its already been done, but i didn't actually see your 'case' made. "Spike likes eating humans" :lmao: oh dear. But I will agree with you, Buffy and Angel were 'EPIC'...because that precisly how half of all first loves are, epic, that doesn't make them 'soulmates'. It was painfully over dramatic, which I get is why a lot of people have such a hard time letting them go. Relationships just dont work like that, thankfully. Can you imagine "wanting to die" everytime your lover left for work in the morning? It was a young love (granted, with a man older than the US) and sure, its beautiful and tragic... and umm.... over.

On your last point, I love this conclusion. Becuase the fans arn't letting Angel and Buffy 'go' so to speak, Joss is forced to write him into the plot. This is an example of where fan devotion gets in the way of writing.

But ill stick to my last point, neither of them really deserve Buffy.

 

[Joan the Vampire Slayer]

I am so stupid, lol.

I just now noticed how nonsensical the question is.

The question should read: Bangels, how do you reconcile Buffy's feelings for Spike (not Angel)?

Is this sarcasm? lol

I guess I'll stay out of this conversation, then.

 

[ubi4soft]

Do you think she would feed herself to Spike like she did Angel?

This actual got me thinking (it happens sometimes) that Spike at least tasted Buffy's blood. That's how he recognized her in "Sleeper"--not her scent, or her voice, and was able to free himself from the influence of The First.

 

[white avenger]

This actual got me thinking (it happens sometimes) that Spike at least tasted Buffy's blood. That's how he recognized her in "Sleeper"--not her scent, or her voice, and was able to free himself from the influence of The First.

I hadn't thought of that, but you might be onto something there. We know from the end of Season 2 that Slayer blood has a restorative power for vampires (as well as being a powerful aphrodisiac from Season 5) and that restorative power might not be limited to just physical maladies. Possibly if Spike had taken as much of Buffy's blood as Angel had four years earlier, he might have been totally de-triggered then and there.

And now, here's a BIG FAT SPOILER FROM ANGEL: AFTER THE FALL. DON'T READ ANY FURTHER IF THAT BOTHERS YOU!!!!!

(Last chance to turn back if you don't want to read a spoiler)

According to Wolfram & Hart in After The Fall, it will definitely be Angel who receives the sanshu, but he, Angel, NOT Angelus, will receive it as a reward for fighting FOR THE BAD GUYS. (That's why W & H went to all the trouble of saving him, as well as all of the rest of LA at the end of the After The Fall arc) That means that he and Buffy will be on opposing sides in the final battle. Enemies. I would think that something like that would make a "happily ever after" in their future highly unlikely.

 

[ubi4soft]

Angel, who gave up humanity and chance to be with Buffy, to accepted it as a reward from the bad guys? That would destroy 5 years of Angel looking for redemption, would destroy Angel as character and Joss as his creator.

 

[Joan the Vampire Slayer]

Obviously Buffy is meant to be with Angel, by taking Canon into affect I will show you why this is the case. Also as a side note as proven through the Angel season 6 Comic Books the true Vampire with a Soul as told in the Shanshu Prophecy is Angel. Angel was cursed with a soul, Spike got his to impress a girl and really Spike with a soul is the same thing as Spike without a soul, as even with a soul he makes mention of how much he enjoys killing and eating humans whereas Angel shows remorse.

Buffy and Angel are Soul Mates, always have been and always will be. In the Buffy finale she didn't need to think when she saw Angel she just reacted, with tongue. The love she has for Angel is, to paraphrase Spike ironically, Epic; they'll never be friends because they feel too much. The only reason Buffy ever got together with Spike was because HE WAS THERE, after she came back she needed to see Angel. Angel lived or unlived or whatever you call it for Buffy, to love her, honour her, everything. They are Soul Mates. Just like Buffy said she will always be his girl, always. Forever, that's the whole point. Spike was always a poor man's Angel. He offered to kill Dru to prove his love for Buffy; Angel actually killed his sire for her. In the final battle Angel gave Buffy the amulet, she wouldn't let him wear it; she trusted him with her legacy, to honor her memory. Spike was always just a substitute for the real deal. Do you think she would feed herself to Spike like she did Angel?

To Buffy the mission is what matters. To Angel you fight the good fight whichever way you can. To Spike he doesn't give a piss about atonement or destiny.

Spike has been right on two occassions; Buffy and Angel are EPIC and Buffy wasn't in love with him.

If you don't believe me just check out the messages from the boss man himself; Joss Whedon:

Buffy in Season 7 Episode 'Selfless'- I killed Angel. Do you even remember that? I would've given up everything I had to be with- I loved him more than I will ever love anything in this life and I put a sword through his heart because I had to.

Joss Whedon on the Buffy/Spike Relationship (Chosen Commentary)- The relationship should be complicated and yet come to a place of trust without saying 'now they become lovers again' because that would be wrong.'

Joss Whedon on the Buffy/Angel Relationship (Chosen Commentary)- I had to give them hope that one day Buffy and Angel might be together because that is ultimately what people want.

Joss Whedon Quote- Buffy loves Angel, he loves her and i love ho-hos.

Spike did not get his soul to 'impress a girl.' He got his soul because the girl he fell in love with believed in him and inspired him to be a better man. His love for her inspired him to self-improve, as she did for Angel. It was her that got Angel out of the sewers.

Well, I appreciate your opinion as I do all the Bangels around here, but not all of us believe that Buffy/Angel are soulmates. And to answer your question, Do you think she would feed herself to Spike like she did Angel? YES. Absolutely. She proved on many occasions that she trusted, loved, and cared for Spike on the same level, if not more, than she ever did for Angel. What about when she runs to save him from Xander hacking him to bits after he slept with Anya? Or in Tabula Rasa when she knocks him down to avoid a flying stake?

She cries when he dies and tells him she loves him. And the last word she says in the series is "Spike." That's what we're left with.

And I have to disagree about Spike not giving a shit about atonement or destiny. Who was it that won that fight between him and Angel over the Cup of Perpetual Torment? Over who would become human? Spike, because he wanted it more. So, how can you say he doesn't care about destiny? As for atonement, Spike sees the world differently than Angel and always will. He's not the type to mope around in alleys for a hundred years, kicking himself in the ass for all the wrongs he's ever done. Spike's the type to get up, dust himself off, and move on to more productive things. Their conversation in 'Damage' proves that even though Spike never really thought about what it meant to be evil, he can identify with victims because they were in that position once.

In the commentary Joss leaves it open to interpretation what happened between Buffy and Spike on that one night. The thing that makes this show so great is that it is ambiguous. In response to Joss' other quote: No one is debating if she loved Angel - we all know she did. What we (Spuffies) are a adamant about is that she loved Spike as well. Who's to say Buff only had the capacity to love one person? Besides, yes, I have watched the commentary, and agree with Joss that Buffy and Spike's sexual relationship at that time in that context and situation was dysfunctional and wrong. Spike did not deserve to be her sex slave and punching bag. Yet, there's no denying that in S7, he became her best friend and even before that she trusted him with her mothers, sisters, and her own life. Angel and Buffy will never have the comradeship and true friendship she had with Spike

 

[Misty]

I wont disect your post because it seems its already been done, but i didn't actually see your 'case' made. "Spike likes eating humans" :lmao: oh dear. But I will agree with you, Buffy and Angel were 'EPIC'...because that precisly how half of all first loves are, epic, that doesn't make them 'soulmates'. It was painfully over dramatic, which I get is why a lot of people have such a hard time letting them go. Relationships just dont work like that, thankfully. Can you imagine "wanting to die" everytime your lover left for work in the morning? It was a young love (granted, with a man older than the US) and sure, its beautiful and tragic... and umm.... over.

On your last point, I love this conclusion. Becuase the fans arn't letting Angel and Buffy 'go' so to speak, Joss is forced to write him into the plot. This is an example of where fan devotion gets in the way of writing.

But ill stick to my last point, neither of them really deserve Buffy.

I agree with you on some stuff, there is no doubt that Bangel was very epic because they were kind of the first couple tobe shone, but Spuffy is very epic. And I do agree that some Bangel fans get in the way of writing, for example, in Chosen, Joss had to make Angel come, because fans wanted Angel to be in the last episode of Buffy, which in my opinion was kind of pointless for Angel to come back after alot has happened in life.