Question For Spuffies/Bangels

[Flannen]

I have a few things to say here now. My boyfriend got up to go out early and I get back to sleep so I have some time to kill. (sw)

First of all, even though Joss has said eh bought Angel back to give hope, blah blah blah, I don't think that is the only reason, or a poor idea at all. Angel HAD to be there for the last episode. Of course he would be. If Buffy was going to what could be her final battle, he would absolutely, 100% go and see her. Despite everything that had been going on in LA, with Cordelia and whatever, it doesn't matter, he was always going to show his face. Just like he did when Joyce died, and just like he did (off-screen) after Buffy's resurrection.

His return to Sunnydale after Joyce's death, also leads me to argue that Buffy and Angel could have the comradeship and friendship that Buffy and Spike had. That's what he went there for, to be there for her and support her as a friend. And even though they kiss? Well, it's Angel, who wouldn't? Apart from crazy people! 😛

For me, Spike did get his soul back to 'impress a girl' even if it isn't as straight forward as that. Spike had to get his soul back in order to find any kind of redemption after trying to rape her. Redemption he DID NOT deserve in my book, soul or not. This is one of the biggest issues I have with Season 7. It boggles my mind what goes on in Season 7 regarding SPike and Buffy after Season 6, but I've said that before.

I also don't think that Buffy saving Spike from Xander's wrath in Season 7 can be straight-forwardly seen as her expressing her 'love' for Spike. For me, that was always more about Xander. She didn't want Xander to act upon impulse and emotion and do something he might later regret. Buffy did not want Xander to cause someone else's death because of his own feelings of betrayal.

And, obviously, as a 'Bangel' it's pretty darn predictable I'm going to say this, but personally, I don't think Buffy would offer herself to Spike in the same way. Not at all. And if she did? Well I would have to hunt her down and kick her ass.

It's swings and roundabouts really, I'm never going to have my mind changed, and I'm not out to change anyone else's, I've just never had the time or the energy to say anything that substantial on the subject, but who knew, after only a few hours of sleep and a deep feeling of dread about the coming day at work, I've got the energy! 😛

 

[Joan the Vampire Slayer]

I also don't think that Buffy saving Spike from Xander's wrath in Season 7 can be straight-forwardly seen as her expressing her 'love' for Spike. For me, that was always more about Xander. She didn't want Xander to act upon impulse and emotion and do something he might later regret. Buffy did not want Xander to cause someone else's death because of his own feelings of betrayal.

Flannen, you know I love reading your posts and respect your opinion, I'm going to have to disagree. I don't think Xander would have regretted staking or chopping Spike up for a minute. Honestly, Xander never thought of Spike as a person. For him, it's black and white and always has been - people good, vampires bad. Killing Spike wouldn't have fazed him in the slightest.

 

[Flannen]

Flannen, you know I love reading your posts and respect your opinion, I'm going to have to disagree. I don't think Xander would have regretted staking or chopping Spike up for a minute. Honestly, Xander never thought of Spike as a person. For him, it's black and white and always has been - people good, vampires bad. Killing Spike wouldn't have fazed him in the slightest.

LOL! It's all good Joan. It's work both ways, I love reading yours too! 😛

To be honest, I knew this was kind of the weakest part of my argument. I totally get what you're saying, and I even thought of it myself whilst I was writing it. Xander did hate, like really, constantly, hate Spike pretty much all the way through, but I don't know, I still kind of get this feeling he would feel bad for doing it. I am aware how weak that sounds! Haha. It's one of those feelings I get that I can't really explain, y'know. I don't know, maybe its just something I want to believe...😛

 

[Silum]

When Spike was doing Anya, I think for everyone in the room to realise from Buffy's saddened look... it showed just how much Buffy cared about Spike. Buffy went to save both of them imo, she couldn't let Spike die because of what he meant to her, and she certainly couldn't let it be at the hand of Xander.

 

[Gideon]

Is this sarcasm? lol

I guess I'll stay out of this conversation, then.

No. This is a thread for Bangels to explain how they rationalize Buffy's feelings for Spike, rather than pretend seasons 6-7 never happened.

And this is also a thread for Spuffies to do the same for Buffy's feelings for Angel, rather than pretend that seasons... well... all of them, I guess... happened.

---------- Post added at 11:52 PM ---------- Previous post was at 11:49 PM ----------

She proved on many occasions that she trusted, loved, and cared for Spike on the same level, if not more, than she ever did for Angel

Eh?

I've seen... absolutely nothing that suggests that her feelings for Spike were anything compared to what she feels for Angel, much less when the two of them were actually dating.

This seems to fly in the face of what you communicated to me on the subject.

 

[Flannen]

When Spike was doing Anya, I think for everyone in the room to realise from Buffy's saddened look... it showed just how much Buffy cared about Spike. Buffy went to save both of them imo, she couldn't let Spike die because of what he meant to her, and she certainly couldn't let it be at the hand of Xander.

On a personal level, I don't think her jealousy here has as much to do with such strong feelings here, as her feelings/insecurities regarding Angel and Faith in Season 3, and later in the series.

I don't know why, but I saw her jealousy expressed in the above scene as more 'lust' based...which I'm struggling to put into words here. I'm just hoping you'll get what I mean. 😛

For me, on a 'relating' level, her insecurities with Angel and Faith were more about love, than it is with Spike. It was about more with Angel. Not just being jealous Angel might want to be with Faith more on a physical level, but mentally and emotionally too.

I don't think I'm making sense, I'm tired. I'll try again soon!

 

[Akitta21]

It's 2 am here and I haven't been sleeping well lately, so, if this post won't make sense, feel free to ignore it.

About the jealousy thing... I don't really think that Buffy's reaction when seing Spike with Anya, was one caused by love. I think she'd always taken Spike for granted. Even if her feelings towards him were always changing from wanting him to despising their relationship, at that time, he was practically the only constant in her life. I think she was basically just in shock, because, on some level, she thought that Spike would always be there, no matter what. And since, he was basically the only one she felt connected to (even if it was a really weird need-hate kind of thing), losing that connection was just too much.

As for her reaction to Angel/Faith, again, I doubt it was due only to her love for Angel. She and Faith do have a pretty bad history and the first time Faith was close that to Angel wasn't really a happy one. And, let's not forget, that before that incident, Faith did take on Buffy's body and had some fun with her boyfriend. Seing Angel with Faith made her automatically think that Faith had won and that she'd been betrayed again.

Even if I, myself, am a Spuffy shipper, I can't deny Buffy's feelings for Angel. He was her first love, she loved him a lot and a part of her would always love him, but, in some cases love isn't enough. In my opinion, Buffy relationship with Spike evolved a lot in the 7th season and could've actually turned into an amazing love story. Too bad, we didn't get to see it.

Just my two cents...

 

[Flannen]

Ok, so I have this theory, which has been forming in my brain for a while and I've decided this is a good place to share my idea.

Many of the people I know who are Spuffies and who I have spoken to about it, seem to have watched the show later/after its finished, or watched the show in a funny order (not chronologically). I've also found that a lot of those Spuffies favourite seasons are the later seasons.

Now, for me, as a Bangel, I watched it from the start, when it aired, in order. And my favourite seasons are the first 3.

So I guess my theory is; if you watched it from the start and chronologically, and prefer the first half, you're more inclined to be a Bangel and if you watched it later, and prefer the second half, and maybe watched it in a random order, then you're more inclined to prefer Spuffy.

Obviously, I am not saying this is the case with every single Bangel/Spuffy fan, and I don't mean it in any argumentative way at all, but I was just thinking I'd throw it out there.

So be you a Bangel or a Spuffy, what do you reckon? Do you fit into my little theory? Go on, I want to put you tidily into a box! (sw)

 

[white avenger]

Many of the people I know who are Spuffies and who I have spoken to about it, seem to have watched the show later/after its finished, or watched the show in a funny order (not chronologically). I've also found that a lot of those Spuffies favourite seasons are the later seasons.


So be you a Bangel or a Spuffy, what do you reckon? Do you fit into my little theory? Go on, I want to put you tidily into a box! (sw)

I fit perfectly into your theory, since the first episode of the show that I watched, and hooked me immediately, was "Once More With Feeling." When I watched the earlier episodes in syndication, I immediately wondered who the big clumsy clown (Riley) was fooling around with Spike's girl. When I bought Season 1, my thoughts when I saw "Welcome To The Hellmouth" for the first time were, "Who's this turkey with the velvet coat and the eyeshadow (do I even have to identify him?) trying to make time with Spike's girl?

In my defense, though I feel no real need to defend what I believe is the proper choice of the man Buffy belongs with, I will say this. Despite my first impression of Angel, at least (I never really warmed up to Riley) as the early seasons progressed, once the eyeshadow was toned down and finally discarded altogether and, thank god, that stupid coat was never seen again, I did warm up to him a bit. He was far better on his own show, with his own friends, than he ever was as an outsider on Buffy's show. Also, without having the mindset that the dyed in the wool Bangels have, I could quite easily see how much better he related to the more mature Cordy (as opposed to high school Cordelia, who I consider to be Cordy's equivalent of Angelus) than he ever did to teen aged Buffy.

 

[InsaneMystic]

So I guess my theory is; if you watched it from the start and chronologically, and prefer the first half, you're more inclined to be a Bangel and if you watched it later, and prefer the second half, and maybe watched it in a random order, then you're more inclined to prefer Spuffy.

Dunno if I'm the exception, but I definitely blow you're theory apart. I started watching in S2 when it first aired, after which they re-ran S1, so I watched almost completely chronologically from the start. Plus, the highschool years IMO very much rock ass over the later seasons... but I hate Bangel with a passion. 😛

As to Spike deserving redemption or not, well, I disagree with you on that, too (which is ok). Never thought I'd ever come to the defense of a would-be rapist (IMO, rape is, if anything, worse than murder) - but to me, "Seeing Red" proves that Spike is very much deserving redemption, and is basically a more decent person than Angel (even though he, himself, would violently deny it 😉 ).

Hear me out on this one, even if I admit it may be hard to bear reading it. If there ever was a (note: FICTIONAL!) example construed of a woman who "had it coming to her", it was Buffy in S6. Let's see: We have a woman who is physically stronger than the man in question, knows that he has no soul (and thus can be assumed to have no conscience/sense of right and wrong), goes to exploit him sexually knowing that he's emotionally smitten with her, initiates and quite seems to enjoy violence as a valid form of foreplay, and on at least one occasion ("Gone") shows no respect for taking no as an answer. Adding all that, I don't really think it's fair to blame Spike alone for the bathroom scene. Yes, it's horrible, but I think "rape" is, in this context, too strong a word for it. You can't really expect him to accept that "no means no" after she's basically groomed him not to. What happened on that bathroom floor is Buffy's responsibility just as much (neither more nor less) than Spike's, and that's why I find it a powerful feminist message that Buffy does NOT go around putting all the blame on him and try to stake him after it or whatever. She knows her part of the responsibility for what happened, and lives with it. Kudos to her, it's what a strong role model should do!

What I really think shows Spike's decency and nobility of character is that he immediately after this scene goes on actively to try making amends for the situation (the first step of which has to be to get his soul back). As a non-human, predatory creature without a soul, he should in all probability shrug rape off as "so what?"; from a non-ensouled perspective, there's not really that much of a problem with what one could call the "Want-Take-Have" approach to sexuality. Spike, however, even without a soul, feels that he's done wrong and goes to change it. If that isn't redemption material, nothing is.

Compare this to Angel who has this nasty habit of making decisions over other people's heads, and also LIES to Buffy about bad things he's done in the past. Look at his "I've never fed from a human after that day" - not only did he very much do so ("Darla", "Orpheus"), but he even turned someone into a vampire ("Why We Fight"). Seriously, if Spike didn't deserve redemption, then Angel certainly didn't... he should have been staked three times over before the end of S1. 😛

 

[Willow-Tree]

Flannen, I very much fit into your theory, being a huge Spuffy fan, with my favorite season being the sixth.

And InsaneMystic, that is one of the best analysis's of Spuffy's relationship I've ever read. Kudos!

 

[Silum]

Ok, so I have this theory, which has been forming in my brain for a while and I've decided this is a good place to share my idea.

Many of the people I know who are Spuffies and who I have spoken to about it, seem to have watched the show later/after its finished, or watched the show in a funny order (not chronologically). I've also found that a lot of those Spuffies favourite seasons are the later seasons.

Now, for me, as a Bangel, I watched it from the start, when it aired, in order. And my favourite seasons are the first 3.

So I guess my theory is; if you watched it from the start and chronologically, and prefer the first half, you're more inclined to be a Bangel and if you watched it later, and prefer the second half, and maybe watched it in a random order, then you're more inclined to prefer Spuffy.

Obviously, I am not saying this is the case with every single Bangel/Spuffy fan, and I don't mean it in any argumentative way at all, but I was just thinking I'd throw it out there.

So be you a Bangel or a Spuffy, what do you reckon? Do you fit into my little theory? Go on, I want to put you tidily into a box! (sw)

Completely agree with the age thing. Though not the chronological one.

Its fairly obvious really, Spuffy is adult and sexual (better for older), Bangel is sappy (younger). What were you implying with Spuffy fans not watching it chronologically/ out of order though? I can only assume you mean us 'Spuffies' dont see 'the big picture'. Anyway, I watched from Ep1 through to Ep144, in a fairly short space of time, which I think is easily the best way to understand each relationship and their differences. I do think its a little more complicated than that though, I have definite reasons (which i've already stated) why I choose one over the other.

 

[Flannen]

Completely agree with the age thing. Though not the chronological one.

Its fairly obvious really, Spuffy is adult and sexual (better for older), Bangel is sappy (younger). What were you implying with Spuffy fans not watching it chronologically/ out of order though? I can only assume you mean us 'Spuffies' dont see 'the big picture'. Anyway, I watched from Ep1 through to Ep144, in a fairly short space of time, which I think is easily the best way to understand each relationship and their differences. I do think its a little more complicated than that though, I have definite reasons (which i've already stated) why I choose one over the other.

I wasn't suggesting anything like that about Spuffies, haha. I literally just meant, whether you're more inclined to go with whoever you watched first kind of thing? I think that's probably what I meant with the age thing some way or another too. I liked Buffy/Angel when I was 10 and watching and I still like them now I'm 20, but I see the relationship differently now. Which is good, cos otherwise I'd still be thinking like a 10 year old. 😛

I'm going out for the day, but I'll be back on later to say something a bit more...😛

 

[Tranquillity]

I don't fit the theory, well I do a little bit...
I watched the series from the beginning as it aired in chronological order and I am a proud, card-carrying Spuffy. I was in my mid/late twenties when I started to watch so maybe you have something there... The later seasons are my favourite too.

 

[Silum]

I wasn't suggesting anything like that about Spuffies, haha. I literally just meant, whether you're more inclined to go with whoever you watched first kind of thing? I think that's probably what I meant with the age thing some way or another too. I liked Buffy/Angel when I was 10 and watching and I still like them now I'm 20, but I see the relationship differently now. Which is good, cos otherwise I'd still be thinking like a 10 year old. 😛

I'm going out for the day, but I'll be back on later to say something a bit more...😛

Ah ok. Well although I watched it all chronologically, I DID know Spuffy was coming from about mid way through S3 after reading a review. My mind went to the 'what the heck!?' place followed by... 'This is gonna be awesome'. So I would say I was probably more prepared for Spufy than some might be, it also allowed me to see episodes like 'Something Blue' as complete foretelling of the future, even on my first viewing.

I think the Bangel relationship is a real emotional and very easy to connect with relationship. It makes perfect sense to me why people want to see those crazy two work it out, I just think it comes down to whether or not you want to move on. Spike is always the next step for me, Angel was the past, and eventually, Spike will be the past imo. Neither are 'sole mates' form where I'm sitting.

 

[xaphania]

I sort of fit into the theory. I'm a big Spuffy fan. I watched the show just last year, so way after it finished. But I watched it in order, from season one through to season seven.

And I definitely prefer the later seasons to the earlier ones. Whether it's the inclusion of Spuffy, or my general antipathy towards Angel (he bores me in BtVS, much better in his own show) - I don't know, but yeah, definitely prefer seasons 4-7 than 1-3.

 

[Flannen]

Thanks for responding guys, it's been really interesting reading what you think. I kind of regret using the word 'theory' cos I don't want it to seem like this is the way I think it happens or the way it should, it was just a thought y'know. I was looking for people who didn't fit it as much as I was looking for those that did.

I've always also thought that 'you' yourself and your set of beliefs and stuff is important to who you prefer. Like, I'd consider myself to be quite a 'traditional' gal, a bit of a hopeless romantic and more, I don't know, even naive to a point about the way I look at love. Bangel was always more that kind of love for me. I didn't/don't see it with Spuffy because its not quite so straightforward? I'm trying to explain myself so forgive me, I'm not trying to generalise or anything I'm just struggling! Haha.

I think what I meant with chronologically, is that for me, I don't like change. It's something I've always had, on pretty much every TV programme, I make up my mind who should be together and I don't like it when that changes.

And with regard to the jealousy thing I mentioned, I have a wee bit more to add. I think that what I mean is, from a personal point of view, I would be more bogged down emotionally with 'does he want to be with her/is she more compatible' etc as opposed to 'does he want to sleep with her' which again is probably nothing more than to do with the fact I'm a hopeless, naive romantic! (sw)

 

[Joan the Vampire Slayer]

I wasn't suggesting anything like that about Spuffies, haha. I literally just meant, whether you're more inclined to go with whoever you watched first kind of thing? I think that's probably what I meant with the age thing some way or another too. I liked Buffy/Angel when I was 10 and watching and I still like them now I'm 20, but I see the relationship differently now. Which is good, cos otherwise I'd still be thinking like a 10 year old. 😛

I'm going out for the day, but I'll be back on later to say something a bit more...😛

Well, your theory is a good idea, but it doesn't apply to me. I watched the show in order and still prefer Spuffy. 😉

All Angel did was make Buffy sad. He could never be the boyfriend she deserved - physically and emotionally.

---------- Post added at 10:51 AM ---------- Previous post was at 10:48 AM ----------

Ah ok. Well although I watched it all chronologically, I DID know Spuffy was coming from about mid way through S3 after reading a review. My mind went to the 'what the heck!?' place followed by... 'This is gonna be awesome'. So I would say I was probably more prepared for Spufy than some might be, it also allowed me to see episodes like 'Something Blue' as complete foretelling of the future, even on my first viewing.

I think the Bangel relationship is a real emotional and very easy to connect with relationship. It makes perfect sense to me why people want to see those crazy two work it out, I just think it comes down to whether or not you want to move on. Spike is always the next step for me, Angel was the past, and eventually, Spike will be the past imo. Neither are 'sole mates' form where I'm sitting.

I always thought Buffy had a little thing for Spike, starting from when he showed up. There always seemed to be a charge between them. A connection. Why else would he have so adamantly hated him? She'd never hated a vampire before. There was something about Spike that got her. And I was very careful to not read any reviews or books or go on any forums to make sure I avoided spoilers. When Buffy and Spike got together I was absolutely shocked at how it happened, yet I was also stoked. I was like FINALLY. There was never a question with me. From the second that happened I always believed Spike was best with her. I thought about it and it seemed like a natural progression. They just fit together. They challenge each other. She can be herself around him. Why not hook up the two arguably most popular characters on the show at the time? It was a great choice.

I love Angel, really. He's one of my most favorite characters. JUST NOT WITH BUFFY. 😉

 

[Silum]

^ Its like when Spike is first introduced. How does he act? Remember that scene when he's watching Buffy dance in the bronze. That was total predator but with something very lustful about it. The clues are definately there I agree.

 

[Gideon]

He could never be the boyfriend she deserved - physically and emotionally.

WOW.

Are you serious?

Angel, the poster vamp of brooding, guilt, and sacrifice, doesn't deserve her... but Spike does?

Personally? I contend that Angel deserves everything sooner than Spike. The decades of torturous guilt, the centuries in hell, the constant ritual sacrifice that he makes for people (including Buffy) every single day... and he doesn't deserve her?

For someone who cites the character as one of her favorites, you must not think a lot of him. 😛

I'd say Angel deserves happiness (with Buffy or whomever) to an extent far greater than anyone in this series. And yes, that includes Spike.