Question for Students

[Revolver]

All this talk of books is making me want to read a good one, but I don't want to read anything I have at my house. I'll have to go to the library tomorrow.

 

[Blondie Bear]

Gah. Karmified Crazy Flakes last. I love Books of Magic; it's a young boy's journey through the worlds of fantasy--elfland, comic books, etc.--and is sort of a coming-of-age story. Also has the most wonderful quote about fantasy I've ever heard:

For there are only two worlds--your world, which is the real world, and other worlds, the fantasy. Worlds like this are worlds of the human imagination: their reality, or lack of reality, is not important. What is important is that they are there. These worlds provide an alternative. Provide an escape. Provide a threat. Provide a dream, and power, provide refuge, and pain. They give your world meaning. They do not exist; and thus they are all that matters.

 

[StuckinTraffic]

Ok, so this was the gist of my PM to BB, she wanted me to post it, so here it goes. No stones, please, I had them for breakfast.

Revolver, the library is one of my best friends, I hope you'll get along well! Actually, I can tell that y'all are pretty good friends already!

First of all, your students seem young, so they're possibly Freshman? In which case, I can see how they're grumbly, but if you ask me, they need to get over it. They're not in HS anymore, play time is over. It's time to be a grown up now. SOMEONE is paying for college, either them or their parents and they are there to study (among other things...yes, social interaction is important, as is exposure to the 'wider' world that you get in college...but study should come first). No, they are not owed a passing grade simply by virtue of having been accepted to college. I don't think you should just arbitrarily fail anyone, but if a student has earned a failing grade, because they didn't do the assignements, didn't listen in lectures, and then couldn't pass the tests...hey, that's not your fault. You give them the work, it's up to them to do it! It doesn't matter if they like the genre or not.....a lot of people don't like Shakespeare or Hemingway or Charles Dickens....but they still had to read whatever the assignment was in HS Literature classes.....that's just tough!

MY opinion is that HS are turning out students who've been GIVEN grades up to this point so that graduates these days think they're entitled just because they "showed up." And HS have NEVER taught students how to THINK (or not most of them, anyway, I can't say they're ALL like that). So, they find themselves in college, based on grades they may or may not have really earned in HS, having to actually DO the work in order to get a passing grade AND on top of that having to think! It's a symptom of our broken education system, again, just my opinion.

No, I don't think that core requirements are a waste of time. I can ATTEST that I see TOO many alleged college graduates who cannot write (or speak for that matter!) in coherent sentences. As I said above, HS doesn't teach kids how to think, it teaches them how to memorize....ok, that's all well and good, except that NOW they're in college and can't write a term paper. Why? They were given all the tools in HS....do the research, write a rough draft, write a final draft...etc. You know? Why can't they do it? Because they weren't taught that a paper should make a point, have a theory....papers written in HS English class were regurgitations of facts......Hemingway's biography, the early life of Sylvia Plath....the allegorical references in C.S. Lewis' Narnia series.

I can't say if teaching is the right path for you...only YOU can decide that. I can say that I don't think students everywhere are like that. And I can also say that I think you should stick to your guns......if you waver for a second, they'll sense that and exploit it. If a student has earned a failing grade, by all means, give it to them! They'll end up having to take the class again in order to graduate, so that's just their tough luck......or maybe they'll find that college really isn't for them!

ETA: HA! So not really "gist," but more the actual message.....LOL!

 

[Blondie Bear]

And my reply to SiT (other than the "please post this in the thread" plea):

I LOVE YOU. This is exactly what I've been thinking--these kids don't know how to THINK. They're grumpy because I make them discuss the readings instead of just TELLING them what to think about it, and won't take "there's no right answer in literature" for an answer (instead they think I don't know my material. Smartass little punks)!

 

[Revolver]

Blondie Bear doesn't know her material! I'm kidding, of course.

I don't know that kids are just handed a grade in High School, though. I'm sure it depends on where you go, but I certainly wouldn't say that was true in my experience. It's too bad I don't have a copy of my High School transcript handy. It'd be somewhat comical to post it side-by-side with my college transcript. You'd be surprised what a difference there is between my High School grades and my University grades.

 

[Blondie Bear]

^ Me, too, actually. I struggled through high school, too caught up in emotional drama to care about the classes. (And I went to a private, college-prep school where they take a dim view of such things.) College? 3.8 undergrad, 4.0 grad. I think it helped that I took a couple of years off and worked in the service sector--it sucked so bad I had some real motivation to get the heck out of there.

 

[Revolver]

that I took a couple of years off and worked in the service sector--it sucked so bad I had some real motivation to get the heck out of there.

Well, that's the kind of feeling I'm getting after having worked as a cook for two years since college graduation.

 

[StuckinTraffic]

No, I don't think ALL High Schools are like that. I'm speaking from the experiences I've had with schools around here...and actually going back to the elementary and middle school levels. For instance, my daughter has ADHD...she's learned to cope with it, and does very well in school now, but when she struggled a LOT when she was in 4th Grade, the year she was diagnosed. Her grades were VERY bad, and she did fail a couple of her classes....BUT because she passed the TAKS (Texas' standardized test which students have to take every year before they can advance to the next grade, different grades have to pass different sections) she would be allowed to advance to 5th grade. Fifth grade is considered "Intermediate" school and the students switch classrooms for different subjects, they're required to keep an 'agenda' with their homework assignments, etc....it's just a lot more stuff than she would have had to keep up with in 4th. I wanted her held back, and finally succeeded in having her held back...but the school's administrators had to kind of "pencil" it, find a legal basis for allowing her to repeat because she'd passed the TAKS. Example the 2nd, my son failed the TAKS for reading and math in the 6th grade....he took summer classes before retesting and still failed the tests.....he was allowed to advance to 7th, but had to take remedial classes until he passed the TAKS which he did in 7th grade....and the list goes on.

The policy of most teachers in my school district's schools are if assignments are turned in on time, they get whatever grade they get, depending on the merits of the work, of course. Late assignments are "docked" points, they get graded and then points are deducted based on the number of days they were late, until at some point, they're just considered a 0. So, conceivably, my kid could turn in an "A" paper, and still get a "B" on it because it was 1 day late. How's that fair for the students who DID the work AND turned it on time? What is that teaching MY child? That it's ok to just get it done whenever? There's also a lot of "hand holding" in the schools here.....teachers stay on top of the students to get their homework turned in.....I think students should be told once what the assignment is and when it's due, and the rest is up to them! I have no problem with a gentle reminder to the class, "Hey, papers are due in 1 week!", but I DO have a problem with "Little Johnny, your paper is due in 1 week......3 days......tomorrow...." and then the day AFTER the paper is due, "Oh, Johnny, you can turn in that paper that was due yesterday today...sure, no problem!"

 

[yellowcrayon]

Okay.

I'm a seniorish in college. I'm finishing my degree unconventionally, and, my bias is shown, it's in Literature. 😉

I was a straight A student in high school. I was homeschooled, took some online classes and other stuff, but mostly taught myself. In college I was on Honour Roll and Dean's List. I say this not to be all look-what-I've-done, but to more harshly contrast what I'm about to say. I failed a semester of college. 3 courses, upper level English. World Lit for Children, American Novel (worst course I've ever taken) and Science Fiction. They weren't too hard. I just didn't do the work I needed to for them and got an F and a D and a C- (forget which was for which, other than the F was in American Novel). I screwed up and now have to clamber around to get the necessary English credits. And it's all my fault. Stress in my life cannot be blamed for poor decision making on my part. 😛

That said, those students need to get over themselves. Don't be afraid to fail them. Sometimes we need a wake-up call. Give us what we deserve. I took US Civ 2 from a tough professor my first year, and one test I failed because I didn't study for it. That was what I needed to get my butt in gear and churn out a B for that class.

There is no reason for them to complain about the work they're being given. It isn't high school anymore. They are perfectly capable of doing the work given to them. They are just lazy and don't want to put any effort into it. Well, guess what, buster, life requires hard work. 😛

Personally, I would love your courses. If I could get you to teach me, I would do it in a heartbeat. Brit Lit is my favourite segment of Literature *ever*. 😛 At the same time, even if you don't love something, you still gotta put work into it. I hate math, but I had to take a course and I managed to pass Euclidean Geometry (OMG, I cannot state how much I hate that stuff...).

All this is to say, coming from a good and a bad student who just shared her deepest, darkest school secrets with you... your students are full of crap. They need to move on and be responsible. 😛

I *highly* disapprove of "There is no right answer in Literature." That was the thing I hated about my Lit course at PennState. I greatly preferred my Lit courses at University of Dallas (private Catholic institution with a Core curriculum). I *want* a teacher who is gonna make me think and make me discuss and not give me all the answers. I want a teacher who is gonna challenge me. Maybe because I'm too lazy to challenge myself, but I *want* a challenge. I didn't get one at PennState. And it's too easy for me to sometimes not do the work I need to and still get passing grades (at state institutions) which is a bad habit that I took with me for my failed semester's classes. Life sure isn't like that, and your manager isn't gonna say, "It's okay, there's no one right way to do things." There is *one* right way to heat up a pastry at Starbucks, and if I don't do it that way, I'm not doing my job, and I get in trouble, as well I should.

I think I'm rambly now, but, my point is... I think most students nowadays get off way easier than they should. A failing is sometimes what is needed for them to get their butt in gear. 😛

 

[ILLYRIAN]

What is the course called?
You mentioned about sophomores, etc. What age is that?

I failed quite successfully at school, my highest score was 46 out of 100 and my lowest three were 0 out of 100 but a few years later I went to an evening college where I obtained Royal Society of Arts passes in Commerce, Arithmetic and English language and O level English Language. Those were all done in three months and that includes getting the results.
I added that because as far as I am concerned if a person goes on a course, they should want to be on the course. If they don't like it, as you stated they should leave.
It is not your fault.
As long as the end result is as described at the start of the course. For the Commerce course I checked to see what would be taught, that was up to me to find out... if your students didn't, that would indicate they are not ready for college, or the course.
If you set them work to do and they don't do it, could that be your fault? If the head of the college tells you so, then maybe. If it is the students that say it is your fault, add their comments to their final reports when you fail them.
If it was up to me I would add that they were not suitably qualified to do the course.

 

[kitty-cat]

I'm in my 3rd year at college now. Because I'm studying English I also have to take literature classes and one of them was "British Literature". But I think literature in generall is hard to teach to a mass of students because there are students who are not interested in literature at all and then there are only few students that are totally obsessed with books. Of course it is easier to talk to those few students because they share your passion. But I think it would be helpful if you had a serious talk with your students and gave them sort of a wake up call (btw I agree with you on that yellowcrayon). Make sure to tell them that they have taken this class now and that they should be more committed to it. You don't want them to become bookworms but they should start acting like college students, they're not in high shool anymore. And don't fell bad for giving bad grades. This really helps with most of them.

I have to admit that I'm one of those who are not very interested in literature in general. My professor was also very frustrated about comments made by the students. Although I have to say nobody said the course or even the teacher were lame. I think that is so disrespectful. Some of my fellow students complained about having to read too many books and that we didn't have time to read all that and stuff like that. And then my teacher gave us sort of a wake up call. She came to class one day and she was all furious and she raised her voice and I've never experienced a teacher acting like this but her arguments were very good and reasonable. That really made an impression on all of us. So, maybe try that. State the facts, face them with reality (this is college not HS anymore and you're responsible for yourself and your future now)

I think that it is hard to win over students who are less interested in literature. If there is a teacher who is overly exited about the topic this might frighten off most students and make you look wired. I don't now how you you hold your classes and I'm sure you're doing in very well, but maybe you can find some points that open up the topic to them and maybe together with a serious talk you'll get them motivated.

I think literature teachers in general have a problem with getting students motivated and the fantasy genre isn't such an appealing genre either. But I also think you shouldn't just change your course plan for your students because you prepared the course very well.. I think the students need to do their part now.

 

[Flannen]

I don't think this is something that your students have against you Blondie or against the Fantasy genre. I got to a British University and I'm in second year and there are SO many people who complain about the amount of work and reading, whatever its about. It's something that really aggravates me because they are paying in excess of £3000 a year, are aware it is a degree but think it isn't going to be hard work.

I get the impression that a LOT of people think English at higher education level is a doss, and just don't want to get a job for another 3+ years! Which means that for students like me, who want to go on to teach English, I sometimes feel that people think the same about me!

Have your students chosen to do literature? Because if they have then are complete morons if they then don't get interested in it!

If there is a teacher who is overly exited about the topic this might frighten off most students and make you look wired.

I have to disagree here. I don't know much about how the education, particularly higher, works in America, but in England, at university, ALL lecturers are excited/passionate about one particularly thing because they are experts in their chosen areas. One of my American Studies tutors is a big academic writer etc in Buffy! Students over here don't find that weird in their tutors because its expected.

On a side note, have you ever thought about using Philip Pulman's His Dark Materials series? Its kind of aimed at young teenagers but its been studied on my course under fantasy and it's a darn good read. There are 3 of them so maybe the first book would be best.

Personally I would tell them that if they that uninterested and are going to be rude and annoying, tell them the get the hell of your course and don't wasting money 😀 I am going to be an awesome teacher!

 

[Tueuse de Vampires]

I guess I'm one of those students you would probably hate...

First of all, the reason I went to university...partly it's because I'm really into psychology, so I definitely wanted to go down that road, but an equally important reason for me was the prestige that goes with it and the entire student lifestyle. That said, I often postpone studying for other activities, and I more often haven't done the reading for class. In a way I feel bad about it, but I also know that it's always been that way for me, so I don't even know really how to study.
I don't think anyone owes me a good grade just for nothing, in fact, I'm quite happy with my mediocre grades. Honestly, I think I'm smart enough to get better grades, but I'm just too lazy to pay that extra effort. So it would be really presumptuous for me to expect to just get straight A's (well, the Dutch equivalent) for nothing.
General education, as it's taught in school, I've never been a fan of. So picture me happy that I'm studying in Europe, where you really specify on one area (so for me that's psychology) and screw general education. For me, that stuff should be purely voluntarily post high school. I just don't believe on forcing stuff onto people they don't want to know anything about. If one does not want to learn about something anyway, one will find a way around that.

And about the whole Fantasy literature....frankly, as soon as I had heard 'Fantasy', I would have backed out of that class immediately and gone looking for something more Jane Austen. If you hadn't told the class beforehand that the British Literature class was using Fantasy, I personally woul've been very pissed off. Fantasy is just a genre I just don't like and have no business with. But, since you warned your students about that, I think it's fair game. You should remind them of how you warned them about what the class will be about and now that they still chose to take it, they should stop bitching.

 

[DayVBayB]

Apologies for my ignorant rep post, I was in school and only popped in for 5 minutes or so.
After skimming through the thread so far, the topic has pretty much been covered, but here's my 0.02.

I'm in high school in year 11, the equivalent of junior level I think, and I go to a selective entry school (need to pass an exam to enter in year 9). Having said this, you'd think that with a school where all the students had to pass an exam to get in are all very hard working and hence very competitive with one another, but even in my English class, or outside of it more likely, nearly all of my peers and myself included have complained about the crap texts that we have to read and therefore some of us struggle to be motivated to do the work and therefore fall behind.
I'm saying this because I believe that even in a community where most of the students actually care very much about their studies, they still find something to complain about or decide to not actually care about a certain area of their studies, albeit perhaps not as much as in other schools.

So to your students in your class, they chose this subject and if they want to do well at all, it's up to them to put in the hard yards and earn it, even if they don't find the work exactly interesting or entertaining. I doubt most students who chose to study maths actually find it fun, but they chose the subject for whatever reason (prereq?) and therefore they have to expect themselves to do well.

At my previous school, and this is common to all students at my school basically, I was getting straight A's...nearly😉, but once i entered my current school my grades dropped, and I had to work my way back even though i was studying some subjects that i didn't particularly enjoy.

Your students CHOSE this subject, so it's up to them to improve their grades and motivate themselves.

Although an incentive would really be to try other genres of literature by British Authors. Try a survey?

I sure hope that wasn't all rambling :S

 

[Blondie Bear]

I *highly* disapprove of "There is no right answer in Literature." That was the thing I hated about my Lit course at PennState. I greatly preferred my Lit courses at University of Dallas (private Catholic institution with a Core curriculum). I *want* a teacher who is gonna make me think and make me discuss and not give me all the answers. I want a teacher who is gonna challenge me. Maybe because I'm too lazy to challenge myself, but I *want* a challenge.

My take on the "no right answer in literature" is that so much of the interpretation of literature is based on one's own experiences, past readings, etc. Not everyone interprets things the same way, and who am I to tell them how to interpret something? I can teach them how to analyze, but not what to get out of it. I always hated it when my teachers acted like the sole repository of knowledge and any idea I had that didn't mesh with their idea of What This Novel/Poem Means was wrong.

What is the course called?
You mentioned about sophomores, etc. What age is that?

Sophomores are around 19-20, typically.

On a side note, have you ever thought about using Philip Pulman's His Dark Materials series? Its kind of aimed at young teenagers but its been studied on my course under fantasy and it's a darn good read. There are 3 of them so maybe the first book would be best.

I haven't read that yet. I keep staring at it in the bookstore and thinking about it. I might someday.

A lot of people have mentioned that my students might not be ready for college, and I have to agree. My Research/Composition students, who are mostly freshmen (18/19 year olds) with a smattering of sophomores who failed it the first time around, show this more than the lit students. I don't know what criteria my school is using to select students, but I don't think it's stringent enough. I have a few kids who really just don't need to be in college. They don't have the discipline, the drive, or (in a very few cases) the brainpower to do the work. Maybe if they took off a few years instead of jumping straight into college they'd discover that they're perfectly happy working in the service sector--or that they hate it so bad they're motivated to get out of it by going back to college, like I was.

---------- Post added at 07:50 AM ---------- Previous post was at 07:47 AM ----------

ETA: Cangel, I wouldn't hate having you in my class. Sure, I might be annoyed that you're not working as hard as I know you can, BUT as long as you don't then try to talk me into bending the rules for you or blame ME for your bad grades, I'm good. It's your life and your grades; if you're happy with a B or a C, that's your business. It's the people who blame me or don't try at ALL--and these people actually manage to keep my good students from talking in class because the good students don't want to dominate the conversation and/or look like know-it-alls--that really drive me up the wall.

 

[November]

Im not a student at the moment, my uni course has been on hold for umm 4 years now 😛 LOL The reason I left had nothing to do with the work, I found it quite easy (I was studying environmental science, so no english type subjects). But for the short time I was at uni we all lived by the "a C is a degree" rule. As long as we attended tutorials and labs and handed in the work (and Im not saying just total crap work, as long as you kinda tried) you were probably going to pass with a C and graduate. And you still got the same graduate certificate as the people who got good marks. There was no real incentive to try that hard, unless you were looking to do honours or masters.

Im still not clear on how the uni system works in other countries, even with people always trying to explain it to me, but from my experience and that of my friends, Uni was a hell of alot easier than high school (also depending on which subject you studied, my little sis just graduated with Honours in Microbiology and she worked bloody hard). My older sister got accepted as a mature age student and now has a fantastic job and she failed yr 11 and 12 in highschool and breezed thru in uni (BA in sustainable development). Maybe uni is just easier here or something or we learn more during high school, Im not too sure. What do your kids end up with after doing your course? Is it something that they actually want to do or are they just there as a fill in subject to get the right amount of points to move on?

Do your students have to pay upfront for their courses? I know here that most of us racked up a HECS debt, a no interest loan that we dont have to start paying back until we were earning over a certain amount of money. I know quite a few of my fellow students got slack bacause they knew they didnt have to worry about paying the course fees off for years and decided to live in the moment instead of worrying about the debt they were getting into. Especially in first year, the majority of students had just turned 18. That was party time! And not everyone lived on campus either, the uni I went to only gave you a place on campus if you lived more than 3 hours from the university. I dont know how you could tackle that one, I spose they have to grow up and figure out that this education costs money and not doing the work is not only wasting their time, but their money aswell.

I think having an enthusiastic teacher was a great thing and certainly makes the students work harder. I pretty much failed at least one semester a year from yr 9 up for english and the difference in teachers had a huge impact on my grades. First half of yr 9 I failed miserably and was always having fights with the teacher or just not showing up, for second semester I requested to change classes. Since I then hated english, I still skipped alot, but I ended up top of that class with the new teacher. Again in yr 11 I was sitting on a low C/high D, as was the rest of the class. I had a few run ins with that teacher too and nearly got suspended but after talking with the rest of the class (all 9 of us) we made a case that the teacher was the problem (she was a lovely lady, just a shithouse teacher) and we were given a new teacher for yr 12. All of our grades went up noticably and I think it is purely because Mrs Gardiner (the new teacher) was so enthusiastic about the subject and provided us with great current books and movies to work with (The Matrix, The Trueman Show and The Full Monty,who doesnt want to spend a class watching those movies!), she was also our grade co-ordinator and Im not sure if that impacted us aswell since no one wanted to let her down. Dont lose your enthusiasm!

Perhaps you would be better suited to teach an older age group that realise what college is actually for? The first/second years are probably much harder to teach and get motivated, they SHOULD know better but probably just dont care enough yet to try, not studying and going to parties instead is soo much more fun, the change in lifestyle too has to be an exciting challenge for them and it would take a while to figure out the swing of things. I really dont know what else you could do to get them working, from the sounds of it you are doing as much as possible. Goodluck!

 

[Blondie Bear]

^ My class is a "gen ed" class, which means it's part of a block of classes everyone has to take, regardless of their major.

Also, that's exactly why I'm getting my PhD; that will allow me to teach juniors, seniors, and grad students who are majoring in English and presumably WANT to be there. I can't WAIT.

 

[Sweetescape]

My students have been driving me nuts lately with comments like "this is too much reading," "I don't like Fantasy," "this is lame" (and in one case, saying that I am lame). They also routinely fall asleep in class, fail quizzes, and whine about how much work I give them.

So. Question for those of you who are college students. Why are you in college? Is it for the social interaction? The education? Do you feel that because you got accepted into a college, the teachers owe you good grades? How do you feel about your General Education (some places call them Core) requirements? Do you think they're a waste of time?

Seriously. I want to know. Because I'm ready to start arbitrarily failing people. I'm that pissed off right now. And I'd like to know if students are like this everywhere and if teaching is really the vocation for me.

(Letting me know what grade/level you are would also help this tremendously.)

Why are you in college?

Seriously? because I didn't want to go and get a job at 16 and I thought I'd quite like to get some more qualifications. Possibly go to university.

Is it for the social interaction? The education?

Meh social interaction was once high up there but lately I'm getting bored of people and the constant repetitiveness of it all. Some days when I have rubbish lessons I only really go in to speak to people and catch up with what's happening. I like education just sometimes I really can't be bothered. Which is bad I know.

Do you feel that because you got accepted into a college, the teachers owe you good grades?

AHAHAH I WISH, no my failing is down to me and me alone.
I didn't fail any of my GCSE'S and didn't get lower than a C grade, but these two years I've just lost the concentration and will power, so its my fault.

 

[Black Eye Guy]

I dropped out half way through first year, and will be going back in September.

The first time I went, I was expecting it to be more fun, but everyone was taking it so serious, and I was cutting class taking long lunch's, Tequila shot friday, and not turning up for week's on end.


Do you feel that because you got accepted into a college, the teachers owe you good grades?

Not good grades but I expected them to know we'd be drinking mid week and would be turning up late to class hungover having not done the work.

 

[Blondie Bear]

I dropped out half way through first year, and will be going back in September.

The first time I went, I was expecting it to be more fun, but everyone was taking it so serious, and I was cutting class taking long lunch's, Tequila shot friday, and not turning up for week's on end.


Do you feel that because you got accepted into a college, the teachers owe you good grades?

Not good grades but I expected them to know we'd be drinking mid week and would be turning up late to class hungover having not done the work.

Then why go? Why put yourself into extreme debt to not learn anything and do stuff you could do sitting at home anyway?

Also, we (teachers) may KNOW you're going to do that, but we don't have to like it, and we sure don't have to adjust our schedule, rules, or grading policies for you (and I mean "you" in a general, not specific, way). Someone who does that in my class on a regular basis (of which there are quite a few) is going to fail. Period. I don't have an attendance policy, but things we do in class, like quizzes, can't be made up. Therefore, I expect my students to be adults and know what they need to do and do it.

ETA: I don't think most of my students understand what's going to be expected of them in the really real world, when they have to get a really real job and acting like this will get them really fired.