Question regarding "I Will Remember You"

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alluring dejection

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So, Angel realized he couldn't be with Buffy as a human because:
1. He was weak and couldn't fight.
2. There were more "warriors of darkness" coming or whatever they called them.
3. I believe there was another reason, but I forgot. It'll come to me. ;x

1. The first reason is completely bogus. Just look at Gunn and Wesley - as well as Gunn's gang. They were all self-taught humans. I'm sure he could've easily adjusted and built up his strength. Granted, it might not be as powerful as it was during his vampire stage, but still.
2. "Warriors of darkness" surround them all the time - they're always there. Nothing will/did change that.

This brings me to my question: if Angel thinks so cautiously about these things, why didn't he think of those things? =/
 
So, Angel realized he couldn't be with Buffy as a human because:
1. He was weak and couldn't fight.
2. There were more "warriors of darkness" coming or whatever they called them.
3. I believe there was another reason, but I forgot. It'll come to me. ;x

1. The first reason is completely bogus. Just look at Gunn and Wesley - as well as Gunn's gang. They were all self-taught humans. I'm sure he could've easily adjusted and built up his strength. Granted, it might not be as powerful as it was during his vampire stage, but still.
2. "Warriors of darkness" surround them all the time - they're always there. Nothing will/did change that.

This brings me to my question: if Angel thinks so cautiously about these things, why didn't he think of those things? =/
Because he didn't want to be weaker than Buffy.

And well, it would have been silly to give him a show then have Buffy and Angel get back together wouldn't it?
 
Well, yes, I realize that looking at it as a show, it's rather pointless if it went the way I wanted it to, but I'm saying the logic behind it was rather...ill-planned.
 
i don't think Angel was really thinking of himself here...his thoughts were of Buffy.
if he had remained human, Buffy would have wanted to protect him...maybe to the point of giving her own life to save Angel's. Angel couldn't have lived with the fact that, because he had become human, he had killed the girl he loved.
 
It wasn't so much that he couldn't fight the good fight as a human, Gunn and Wes were two fine examples that this was possible, as you have said. It was that he was a more powerful weapon for the side of light if he remained a vampire.

Sure, Angel could have stayed human and trained himself up to be the equal of someone like Gunn and Wes but after being used to all the strengths that came with being a vampire it would not be so easy to just be human again, no matter how well trained he was.

As a vampire Angel knew that he could be a much more useful warrior for the battle against evil and in his heart he knew that he could not sacrifice that fact just to allow himself to be with Buffy in a normal relationship. He chose to be a more powerful weapon over his own happiness, which is one of the big reasons that he is a true champion.
 
Yeah, you've mentioned Gunn, Wes, Giles, et al, as been good fighters, and they are. But they're the backing group. They aren't the champions that Angel and Buffy are. Angel definitely felt he was far more powerful and useful in the fight against evil as a vampire.

There's also the question of Angel's quest for redemption. I haven't seen this ep in a while so I'm not sure if he brings it up, but I think part of his reason for giving back his humanity is because he didn't feel he'd earned it yet. This is before he knew of the Shanshu Prophecy, but in some way he probably felt that he'd gotten to where his redemption would take him. But he'd gotten there by accident, not through having earned it.
 
A
alexa
your sig makes me sad :(
I agree with you all that Angel was more useful (fighter-wise) as a vampire and such, but I always kind of pegged the episode a bit differently myself.

From http://vrya.net/bdb/index.php, "I Will Remember You"
MALE ORACLE: Why are you here, lower being?

ANGEL: The Mohra demon said the end of days had begun. That others were coming, soldiers of darkness. I need to know if he was telling the truth.

MALE ORACLE: As far as such things can be told.

ANGEL: What happens to the Slayer when these soldiers come?

FEMALE ORACLE: What happens to all mortal beings. Albeit sooner in her case.

ANGEL: She'll die? Then I'm here to beg for her life.

MALE ORACLE: It is not our place to grant life and death.

ANGEL: And ask you to take mine back. Look I can't protect her or anyone this way, not as a man.

FEMALE ORACLE: You're asking to be what you were, a demon with a soul, because of the Slayer?

MALE ORACLE: Oh, this is a matter of love. It does not concern us.

ANGEL: Yes, it does. The Mohra demon came to take a warrior from your cause - and it succeeded. I'm no good to you like this. I know you have it in your power to make this right. Please.

ANGEL: If I stay mortal one of us will wind up dead. Maybe both of us. You heard what Mohra said.

ANGEL: No, I won't just stand by and let you fight, maybe die, alone.

ANGEL: You know that's not it. How can we be together if the cost is your life, or the lives of others?

Angel's initial question was to know about the mohra demon's predictions, and the impact they would have on Buffy. He didn't even bring up the idea of changing back until they confirmed that she would indeed die in the end of days.

It seems as though he wanted to exchange his life for her own, like if he gave up his humanity Buffy wouldn't die. Which, since the oracles never actually stated otherwise, would make perfect sense. Given that he only started hearing of this AFTER he was turned human, it's only logical that if he could erase his humanity, he could also erase Buffy's impending death.

And it seems Angel just used him becoming a warrior for the PTB again as an excuse to get the oracles to grant his request, since they said they obviously wouldn't do it otherwise.

And afterwards, when he was explaining what he did to Buffy, although he did mention protecting others ("ANGEL: Buffy. You saw what happened last night. If anything I'm a liability to you. You take chances to protect me, and that's not just bad for you, it's bad for the people we were meant to help.") He also referred to her dying several times when they were talking, obviously showing his fear of just that, and how it had a heavy influence on his decision.

He would obviously do anything to keep Buffy safe, and if he knew (or thought he knew) that giving up his humanity meant that she wouldn't die, there would be no question in his mind as to what he should (and did) do. I mean, yes, he could have stayed human and trained to help Buffy just as Wesley and many of the Scooby gang had, but in his mind, that wouldn't be an option. Like I said before, all he knew was that the issue of Buffy's death came up when he was turned human, and that he had an opportunity to change that. No matter how much he wanted to, he wouldn't run the risk of Buffy's life to stay human; ESPECIALLY not when he already had a chance to do something that he was sure would keep her alive (again, this is keeping in mind that none of us know that Buffy ends up dying anyway)

Although his duty to saving others and redemption may have been on his mind, it seems to me like this was mostly driven by his desire to keep Buffy alive safe. He still has no idea of the Shanshu prophecy (or that he has a chance at "redemption"; or at least not a definite way of it- which the shanshu gave him.... you are redeemed- you get to be human) and I'm sure that if the mohra incident hadn't happened, he probably would have ended up training just as you suggested, to keep fighting the good fight.

It seems that Angel wasn't thinking cautiously much at all, simply doing what, in his mind, he had to do. He didn't question those things because he didn't think to. He had a problem (Buffy dying) and had a soloution (him taking back his humanity), for him that would have been the end of the story; no ands ifs or buts. No, it's not really all that logical, or rational, and probably doesn't make much sense, but it does fit into his character to a tee. It's just the kind of thing Angel would do, especially given the circumstances he was faced with.

As much as I would have loved to see a Buffy/Angel reuinion and happy ending of sorts, the end result of the episode did match the characters that Joss had written over the years. And by writing the storyline for that episode the way he did (with the second mohra attack and such), the writers really had no other choice.
 
Old Master 3.0
Old Master 3.0
Very well done.
K
Kimm
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Nice analysis angelic_slayer... although, what I find striking is that little over a year later, inspite of him being a vampire, she'd die anyway.
 
Thanks Allycat.... yeah that's kind of the whole kicker I suppose. That might just be another reason why Angel's reaction to Buffy's death seemed so huge (with his trip away and such) but like I said, the Oracles never actually said that his turning back time would change anything; that's something Angel assumed. They agreed because it benefited the PTB to have another warrior, not because it would save a slayer's life. Ironic in a depressing kinda way I guess, makes sense but still would have liked to see he and Buffy end up all together and humany myself
 
Well I am just darn p.o.'d I just started watching angel and I hate to see Buffy cry and darn it darn it darn it...I want her to remember. A small part of me thinks she does!
 
Angel simply doesn't wanna be weak... he needs to be a hero; being normal would probably feel like going back to ''rubbin' rat's filth all over his face'', as Spike kindly put it. But that's just my opinion.
 
S
Spirit_Of_Fred
as true as that might be, the writers also needed him to remain a hero ;).
Angel as a vampire was the Angel that Buffy fell in love with.

More than anything, such a radical change would make him different to the guy she knew.
 
And you must also remember that Angel has seen the evil in Los Angeles and I know he couldn't just sit by and do nothing, and Angel is a much more powerful instrument as a vampire then he would be as a human, he's even more powerful then the slayer, because although Buffy/Faith/Kendra other slayers are physically stronger then him, he can get shot many times, get stabbed right through the chest, get dunked under water for hours, etc, etc and still survive to fight another day, where as if that happened to Buffy she'd be dead. Which is exactly why slayers train so much, because they can't afford to get stabbed, shot, or anything like that, where as vampires it doesn't really matter. Also if you look at it yeah Wesley and Gunn have trained to be able to take on the forces of darkness, but they're always looking to Angel because he's stronger and can take on things they can't. Like Angel going after Skip as one of the MANY examples.
 
To me, if Angel and Buffy really cared that much about each other, they'd make it work. They wouldn't give up that easily.

But this episode blows anyway, one of my least favorites of the entire series. I usually forget it exists.
 
Maybe Angel's sacrifice attributed to Buffy's second, no wait third life 😉 Just a thought, PTB could have made sure Willow's spell worked, because the urn did break and it looked like it was a bust.

I can't believe you don't like this ep RG? Guess I've always been a bangel fan.. well when Buffy's not being a cranky ass.
 
The simplest solution to this whole question is that the whole human/vampire/shanshu thing is that the writers fouled up. Angel as a character was origonaly an ensouled vampire who was fairly well adjusted to his fate. Later, it became more dramatic to have him have a "tortured" soul, and in search of "redemption," not humanity. Then he was a "tortured, tragic" character, cursed to love someone he could never be with.

When he finally regained his humanity, all of what made Angel the character he was disapeared, and with it, the whole element that made the show unique was gone, or, at least greatly changed (Angel could have continued fighting the forces of evil quite effectively as a human, just as others did. Wesley, Gunn, and Giles were mentioned, but the whole existance of Gunn seemed to indicate that there were other demon fighters all over the world.0

The Shanshu plot twist came along as a simple sub plot twist to add a little more to Angel's character. Why would a super strong immortal give that up just to get a sun tan? It would have been more logical to have him striving to have the "one moment of perfect happiness" clause removed from the condition of his having a soul. His dealings with the Powers That Be gave him opportunities to request that boon for his services, but he never did. Barring that, he could've had Willow, or any of the other witches, wizards, sorcerers, and shamen he came in contact with over the years.

Strangely, the Shanshu didn't become either an issue or a plot element until there was no possibility of any more Buffy/Angel crossover stories, and the Angel/Cordelia relationship started to develop. Maybe Angel just figured that it was easier to protect Cordy than Buffy.
 
People either love this episode or hate it, i have to admit that i'm not too keen on it.
For me it is the nail in the coffin of any chance that buffy and angel could ever share a future together, if there was ever any remote smigen of a chance left.
From the moment angel came back from his time in the hell dimension, he wondered why he was bought back, what was the reason for his existance. Moving to LA and helping the helpless gave him that purpose that he'd craved. When he got made human with such ease it was just too easy, he hadn't earned his redemption so it wasn't worth anything to him. I have no problem with angel giving up the humanity to continue fighting evil in the strongest posibile capasity. What i do have a problem with is how the whole thing with buffy was handled. i mean he is just so dishonest! they share a perfect day,just what they'd always dreamed but it is not enough for Angel, he needs to be strong and to continue making amends for his past so he goes to have time turned around and Buffy forgets everything. then, this is the part i object to, he lets buffy leave without telling her the truth. to make matters worse, he then tells doyle the truth. so he'll tell his buddy about it but he won't be honest with the 'love of his life'! For me, it reads as pretty manipulative and very dishonest - like he gets to be all noble but she never knows the truth and so she continues to idealise him as her 'forbidden love' while he has rejected her in order to fulfil his destiny. i'm sure if she'd known the truth then she would have been free to forget about him.
 
"I will remember you" has always been my favorite Angel episode but the season 2 episode "The Trial", kind of negated any kind of sacrifice Angel was willing to make. Interestingly, Angel is willing to die for darla. In "I Will Remember You", he believed the world needed him as a champion but in "The Trial", he believes his life is worth sacrificing for Darla's. I was pretty POD

Anyways, back on the subject. SMG is brillant in this episode, in no small part to the chemistry she shares with DB. Scenes with them together showed how drab the Buffy-Riley relationship was. It was also great to hear the Buffy-Angel theme again, I really missed it.
 
It's all bogus - Buffy & Angel - could of been & should of been together even tho - he was a vampire - if you love someone you would do anything for them - so she should of just dealed with the fact that - that was he's life - it could of work out at some time - I mean Spike was a vampire & Buffy got together with him - wake up , lol .
 
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