Questions about The Curse

[VisionGirl]

I've always wondered why no one tried to find a solution or cure to the "moment of perfect happiness" aspect of the Curse. IOW, so that Buffy & Angel can be together. A loophole of sorts. I would think that either of them would be desperate to discover something like that. I was so surprised when Wesley mentioned a "supernatural prophylactic" to Cordy WRT Groo. Would that have worked for Buffy & Angel? Then again, Wesley also said in S5 that Angel might not lose his soul every time he has sex (& we see that that is true) nor every time he has sex with Buffy. Where did he acquire this knowledge? Does anybody else think there are inconsistencies with this aspect of The Curse?

I do understand and believe that Buffy & Angel can't be together for reasons other than the Curse (as evidenced partly in I Will Remember You).

 

[white avenger]

Angel has always seemed to me to be more of the type of person who, once he found a weakness or limitation within himself, he would either work around it and get on with the business at hand or distance himself from the problem, as he did by moving away from Sunnydale at the end of Season 3 of Buffy's show, or secluding himself in a Tibetan monastery at the end of Season 2 of his own show. Something like, in order to move on, he moves AWAY.

As for the curse itself, it already had a loophole in it. Unfortunately, many people tend to forget that Angel wasn't the one who was cursed. ANGELUS was, and his loophole was the "one moment of true happiness" clause in the spell. Remember what Spike said when the Scoobies brought Buffy back. "There's always a price to pay." The Gypsies would no doubt have left that clause out of the spell if they could have done so. They, above all others, had reason to not want Angelus to return. If it had been within their power to do so, Angelus would have been permanently trapped within the persona of Angel, helpless to prevent the good deeds that Angel performed. THAT was Angelus' punishment. But Angelus' curse is kind of like Green Lantern's power ring. In order to function, it HAS to fail to work on anything yellow. That was why the Gypsies had to keep constant watch on Angel, and why they worked so hard to assure that Angel never knew that moment of complete happiness. To insure that Angelus never escaped from the prison that they had sentenced him to. Like Angelus told Faith in "Orpheus," he was fully conscious and aware of everything that Angel did, but was completely helpless to prevent any of it. Angelus is the prisoner, the one being punished, and the one for whom the loop hole exists. Angel is, in a very real way, simply the containment vessel, or prison, that restrains the monster.

 

[Tueuse de Vampires]

I've had this theory for a long time that Angel wouldn't lose his soul anymore sleeping with Buffy after what happened. Since he knows how dangerous sex for him can be, undoubtedly he can never perform again without this thought in the back of his mind that he might go evil again. And in my opinion, that might well keep him from being perfectly happy. Once bitten, twice shy.

@white avenger: I'm not sure I really get what your saying. So Angelus needs to be truly happy for the curse to be broken, not Angel?

 

[Skytteflickan88]

It is very weird that we never see on the show how they're working on fixing the Curse, not on BtVS or Ats (unless you count non-canon comics). I mean, who knows when he could have felt complete bliss. One look at baby Connor with Cordelia in sight might have done it in Season 3. He seemed so very happy in some scenes.

Just a mention of "we've worked on finding a cure for so long, but we can't find anything" would have worked.

 

[VisionGirl]

It is very weird that we never see on the show how they're working on fixing the Curse, not on BtVS or Ats (unless you count non-canon comics). I mean, who knows when he could have felt complete bliss. One look at baby Connor with Cordelia in sight might have done it in Season 3. He seemed so very happy in some scenes.

Just a mention of "we've worked on finding a cure for so long, but we can't find anything" would have worked.

Exactly! Especially from the aspect of them needing to protect others from Angelus.

And... I'm still trying to digest white avenger's comments. I'll think about it and be back.

 

[PrincessBuffy16]

Cure for "moment of true happines". I really don't know why would cute for that existed, because that moment is rare. I really don't think anything could stop that moment, because the person really doesn't know how he's going to feel. That moment comes along and surprises us, because we don't really know how much we care about the person until we experience that moment.

 

[Skytteflickan88]

Cure for "moment of true happines". I really don't know why would cute for that existed, because that moment is rare. I really don't think anything could stop that moment, because the person really doesn't know how he's going to feel. That moment comes along and surprises us, because we don't really know how much we care about the person until we experience that moment.

Not the cure for bliss, the cure for bliss-causes-soulness-less.

So that Angel could feel perfect happiness without turning evil.

I suppose making sure that he's never happy would work as well, but I think I'd prefer just fixing the loophole in the spell.

 

[Ruminator]

I've always felt the gypsy curse was a hastily put together plot device that remained poorly defined.

Really, it's only function was to explain why Angel was a "good" vampire so that he could serve in that dual function of redemption and love interest for Buffy. It remained so vague that it took me three times watching the show through (including watching it when it first aired) to realize that Angel never actually understood the nature of the curse (i.e., the one moment of happiness fine print). Then again, given all the retconning involved with Angel (and boy howdy, was there a lot of that) who knows what is and isn't true anymore with that.

Finding an out for the loophole fills in to that poorly defined nature of the curse. Realistically, instead of finding an out, why not just find a way to restore his soul permanently? If the fear is there that someday, Angel might lose his soul again, why not find a magical way to restore his soul entirely? Obviously, there are ways to do this, as Spike did it later on. Honestly, it is what it is, a contrived plot device.

To be blunt, I always felt their inability to develop the curse more succinctly really destroyed the impact the second season had for me. If it is actually to change vampires that fundamentally, then why not start cursing all vampires that way? Angel deserves to be "saved" cause Buffy loves him, but none of the other vampires she stakes, many of whom are more victims than Angel (or Liam) ever where. The whole thing just felt cheap without more concrete explanations.

 

[white avenger]

@white avenger: I'm not sure I really get what your saying. So Angelus needs to be truly happy for the curse to be broken, not Angel?

If we go with the theory that Angelus is the real character, whereas Angel is just a containment vessel for the monster, then we can assume that the element that strengthens the force of that vessel is Angel's feelings of shame, regret, disgust, and guilt at what he had done in the past. If those feelings begin to dwindle, if Angel begins to take pride in his accomplishments as hero and defender of the weak, that force, the walls of Angelus' prison, metaphorically, begin to weaken. (We might actually be seeing that in those moments of anger or cruelty that Angel displays on rare occasions, such as locking the W&H executives in the room with Drusilla and Darla, and his outburst at Wes for taking Connor or his threats to Lila for using Cordy as a bargaining chip.) Certainly, Angel is still in control, but sometimes only BARELY so.

If total happiness completely eliminates the Angel persona, releasing Angelus on the world once more, then I would suggest that the happier Angel becomes, the harder it becomes to contain Angelus, hence his being followed around by Gypsies for a hundred years or more in order to maintain the strength of his guilt, thus assuring that the monster stays imprisoned.

 

[dan k]

The issue of the curse isn't well defined no but what i'd say is that i just accepted it was a misty issue. I never found myself thinking about it too much i just accepted it. I'm not sure why that is the case but i didn't question it like i did about other issues in the show.

 

[Thursday]

Finding an out for the loophole fills in to that poorly defined nature of the curse. Realistically, instead of finding an out, why not just find a way to restore his soul permanently? If the fear is there that someday, Angel might lose his soul again, why not find a magical way to restore his soul entirely? Obviously, there are ways to do this, as Spike did it later on. Honestly, it is what it is, a contrived plot device.

To be blunt, I always felt their inability to develop the curse more succinctly really destroyed the impact the second season had for me. If it is actually to change vampires that fundamentally, then why not start cursing all vampires that way? Angel deserves to be "saved" cause Buffy loves him, but none of the other vampires she stakes, many of whom are more victims than Angel (or Liam) ever where. The whole thing just felt cheap without more concrete explanations.

The reason I think the gypsies gave Angel back his soul with the happiness clause is because it's the best they could do. If they wanted to torture Angel with a soul wouldn't they have done it permanently if they could? Spike got his soul back, but a lot had to happen for him to get it. Things that probably wouldn't have happened with Angel.

And, cursing all vampires to be like Angel is impractical. Angel's a special case. In regular circumstances if a vamp kills, they are staked. The gypsies gave Angel back his soul as a way of prolonged torture. If they merely staked him his pain would last a few seconds, but now they can cause him pain for centuries. Also, the gypsies had to keep a close eye on him all the time. The second Ms. Calendar looked away Angel turned. There's no way the Scoobies could keep tabs on all re-souled vampires making sure they never have a happy moment. (Maybe, they could bug and track them like the Initiative, but that's overkill when you can just kill them).

 

[GrrArghx]

I've always thought the curse was pretty straight-forward, and quite frankly - brilliant.

They restored Angel's soul so he would suffer an eternity and they knew that if his pain ever lessened then the curse wouldn't benefit them at all. It was only put there so he would suffer. So, they take it away when he's not.

Maybe it doesn't make much sense to unleash Angelus again, but like Jenny's Uncle said: "It is not justice we serve. It is vengeance."

& about them not trying to fix the clause/curse - I think it just comes down to writing, lol. They weren't gonna (try to) fix it because Angel was getting his own show about being a Vampire-with-a-soul and fixing it would be the easy way out. I can't think of an in-show reason though.

As for the happiness clause being confusing - I get why it might be, but with the examples some people give out; such as Angel not losing his soul when Connor was born - you have to think of the circumstances compared to the time he actually lost it.

So much was going on while Connor was being born - and with Buffy, it was his first time making love to a woman that he loved more than anything else in the entire world; whom excepted him regardless of who he was. It was extremely special for the both of them.

Connor was born in the rain in the back of an alley after Darla had just dusted herself while Holtz was trying to kill them all. Clearly not too much of a happy time, lol.

 

[VisionGirl]

If we go with the theory that Angelus is the real character, whereas Angel is just a containment vessel for the monster, then we can assume that the element that strengthens the force of that vessel is Angel's feelings of shame, regret, disgust, and guilt at what he had done in the past. If those feelings begin to dwindle, if Angel begins to take pride in his accomplishments as hero and defender of the weak, that force, the walls of Angelus' prison, metaphorically, begin to weaken. (We might actually be seeing that in those moments of anger or cruelty that Angel displays on rare occasions, such as locking the W&H executives in the room with Drusilla and Darla, and his outburst at Wes for taking Connor or his threats to Lila for using Cordy as a bargaining chip.) Certainly, Angel is still in control, but sometimes only BARELY so.

If total happiness completely eliminates the Angel persona, releasing Angelus on the world once more, then I would suggest that the happier Angel becomes, the harder it becomes to contain Angelus, hence his being followed around by Gypsies for a hundred years or more in order to maintain the strength of his guilt, thus assuring that the monster stays imprisoned.

Comments on this post
dan k agrees: interesting theory, although i'am not sure the writers intended to put that across

I disagree with dan k that I do indeed think the writers intended this...but it wasn't something I realized until my re-watching S2 this time around and realized how closely the gypsies were watching him, and how they sensed that his meeting & falling in love with Buffy was affecting the Curse. Very well put WA!

The issue of the curse isn't well defined no but what i'd say is that i just accepted it was a misty issue. I never found myself thinking about it too much i just accepted it. I'm not sure why that is the case but i didn't question it like i did about other issues in the show.

I started questioning it when I saw I Will Remember You & again when watching AtS S3 (cory & Groo). Now, I have other issues with that ep (like, how come every other time Angel messes with time or memory, it ends badly, ie, someone finds out, but this experience is never remembered by anyone, nor is ever mentioned again in the series, S8 notwithstanding since I have not yet finished reading it), but those are for another thread LOL. I do think that if Angel had not had so much other stuff going on in his undead "life" (like being a champion & constantly fighting evil), maybe it would've been pursued. Then again, finding out about the ShanShu (sp?) prophecy eased it as well. Hmm, just wondering if Buffy ever knew about the prophecy.

I don't think anyone weighed in on whether the supernatural prophalatic would've helped Angel.