Reacting weirdly to rape attempt?

[Skytteflickan88]

I think something was of about Xander's behaviour towards Spike in season 7. That's probably because I haven't seen the season in while, so I'm asking you some questions that might lead to a discussion about how Xander reacted to Spike's rape attempt.

When did Xander find out Spike had a soul (which means that it was actually okay for him not to hate Spike)?

After the short talk he had with Buffy in Beneath You ("OK, in the biggest way, I am not loving this plan. I am not loving Spike. He tried to rape you.") Did he react to, or talk about Spike after that, before of after he found out about the soul?

Do you think Xander should have reacted differently.

I do have some questions about Buffy to, like; Why did she want to hide Dawn with Spike after the attempt, why didn't she kill him in the basement(season 7) and so on, buy I figure that she understood that he would never try again.

 

[Buffy Summers]

I think Buffy, like a lot of us, were confused/conflicted about what exactly happened there with Spike. She was probably going through a lot of different emotions, didn't know what to think or believe. When Dawn's life was threatened, she probably switched into a sort of survival mode, where she chose the safest place for Dawn to be despite how she felt for herself.

Just my 11 cents....

 

[Skytteflickan88]

Oh, 11 cents? I never heard it put that way before, just people saying "2 cents". Is there more dollar-ways to express your opinion?

 

[Queen Mum]

I guess 11 cents is the more wittier way of saying it, especially to be more interesting 😉

Just my 4 pennies to that 😉

 

[LorneyTunes]

I think once she knew he had a soul ,she could not kill him.
He is an abomination , a vampire with a soul, like a cat being forced into water . She knows what Angel went through Spike is just the same , beating himself up over all the bad things hes done, even attempting to rape Buffy.

Xander, Xander is one to talk sometimes he can start a riot in an empty room, but I understand he knows that Spike isn't going to go mad again unless the first sings a jonty tune .

 

[NightBird]

I've never understood the 'soulless' defense, i've never fully understood the role a soul is meant to play in the world off Buffy.

People with souls in the Buffy world do all sorts of evil, the mayor had a soul once, Rayne has a soul and he did some nasty all be it comical things and the biggest example of evil with a soul is Giles, dear old Rupert becoming 'Ripper' for 'the greater good'. (I'm sure we all know of what I speak, just don't want to ruin it for people who haven't see it yet.)

So if people with souls can be bad than why does the lack of one result in the assumption that a soulless being is evil?

Why does getting your soul back mean that you should be forgiven of yours sins?

I mean vampires think and chose what they do, unlike a werewolf who becomes pure id and has no self control what so ever.

(Also a tad off topic, my bad)

 

[cryptwarmer]

I think the writer's use various aspects of soul, ethics, etc as it suits them to move the story forward, not always in a consistent or logical manner.

I mean Xander says it makes him sick that Anya...former vengance demon, had sex with a souless thing...huh? How many did she enjoy slaughtering over the ages? Don't see why Spike's lack of soul makes his past any worse than hers, or him any less worthy of a solace lay. Xander had been sleeping with the enemy for years. But of course we always manage to justify a different set of rules for ourselves than for those around us.

And Vampires have free will, but also have a vamp nature. I mean, they are NOT your average human who decides to go ugly for personal gain. They awake with a thirst for blood, and a love for the hunt and kill, which most humans don't have, and they are also sans soul, which (we are led to assume) helps humans overcome the times when they do feel tempted toward evil.

Clearly some vamps take to the life with more relish than others.

I thought the writer's played the soul card in some questionable ways, but it added drama and conflict to the story. It seemed that often they used "soul" as a substitute for conscience or empathy. That without one, a creature couldn't truly care how their behavior affected others, they were about their "animal" instincts, and lacked that which allowed them to fully feel as a human.

That seems to be one of Buffy's hang ups with Spike, she can't believe he does love her, because how can he without a soul? She believes his feelings for her are animal, selfish, based on lust but not on love and empathy.Yet we see that even pre-soul, he does have real feelings for her, so it gets pretty confusing.

I think Xander dropped the issue more quickly than is realistic. Yeah, he did as Buffy said, but still, I think he would have held more of a grudge and mistrust, after the attempted rape and the encounter with Anya. He had lots of reasons to hate Spike. I don't think a man gets over that just because his favorite super girl tells him to.

I think it was not believable at all that Spike moved in in S7...maybe if they'd played up the "I'm keeping an eye on you thing"...with a cage, or chains, or a camera system, but not just the reluctant roomies like they played it.

Buffy knew that what happened between her and Spike was well, between her and Spike, that he would not hurt Dawn (nor could he, he still had the chip), and that if he tried to hurt Buffy, she could take him. She makes a speech about it.

 

[Girl with Sword]

People please! Do you think survival was all that it was. I'm sure there were a million other palces that Dawn could have gone. Buffy could have refused but she didn't because she trusts Spike. To go even farther, she forgives him. In terms of the whole soul thing I agree that the witers are sometimes inconsistent with it. In general though it appears that a soul is a consious. Not having a concious doesn't make you unable to have feelings, Buffy just denied that Spike could love her without soul because that would mean Angel could have but didn't.

 

[Skytteflickan88]

Okay, the discussion went into another direction than intended, but I'll happily go with the flow.

NightBird & cryptwarmer(love you username btw, sounds naughty)


If Buffy started ensouling people (why has that never been attempted?) I think she would discover that a lot of them would choose to be "evil"(that's a very loose term but I'll use it) and few not. After all, a lot of humans are jerks without the thirst for blood working it's way.

But some of them, like Angel & Spike, are different.

I actually compare being sired as the process of being drugged against your will. Imagined that you're drugged, and that you do a lot of horrible things, then the drugs wear of and you remember everything. Then you're not to blame. For example, if you force a lot of alcohol into someone and they become agressive and rape someone, that's not their fault. The blame belongs with the person that drugged you (your sire). However if the drug-person(your sire) has been drugged by someone else (your grand-sire) they're not to blame either.


But you should feel horrible, because that shows you're human and got empathy, but it's not your fault. However, if you continue being evil after "the drugs wearing of", then the sould might neevr have mattered. Although the added demoness is something that's not their fault of course, but apparently something some people (Angel & Spike) could overcome, even tough they're not still humans.

So a soul could be very important to a persons personlity. Or as I think in Warren's case, it means shit.

And a lot of demons are nice, even tough they clearly lack a human soul(not sure what they have), like Lorne, kinda Clem(he did hang out with Spike, a serial killer, so I don't know...)

And cryptwarmer, after reading your post about Xander's hypocrisy, I felt that I LOVE YOU 😉

Because it's so true. I have no idea how Anya's soul changed between being demon or not, (but I believe that she actually kept her soul during her demon-days) I just know that Xander hate towards demons who have done wrong in the past (Angel, Spike) were nowhere to be seen when he got together with Anya. What a load of horseshit. I get it, she's a girl now and a human, she's all harmless, but come on. Hypocrite.

I also agree to what you're saying about Xander getting over the rape too quickly to be realistic, but then again, I really need to re-watch season 7. But one scene with hate and loathing about the rape-attempt would be nice, not just the general eww-he's-a-vamp-and-has-to-sleep-in-the-closet-attitude.

Girl With Soul

I'm not sure if Buffy forgave Spike for the rape-attempt that quickly, just that she was desperate and thought that the rape-attempt was a misstake from his side so she took the chance to hide Dawn with him. I really wish the writers would have taken more time to explain/explore Buffy's feelings on the subject. Almost being raped is a big thing after all.

On the whole "Buffy just denied that Spike could love her without soul because that would mean Angel could have but didn't."I'm even less sure.

I have never seen it that way, but yeah, having compared Angel to Angelus must have made her relationship with Spike even more painful. She might have wondered why not Angel's love survived. Thank you for that insight. I however think that the fact that Spike was a sadistic mass-murderer was the main reason Buffy had a hard time getting used to thinking that Spike might have romantic feelings. I mean come on, we all like to think that the bad guys wear black hats and are not nice in any way, so that we don't have to feel sorry for them. That makes things easier. We don't want to find out that serial-rapists/murderer/bullies read the same books we do, admire the same people or God good, could like us.

If a mass-murderer started liking me, I would go to a therapist to try to find out what the hells wrong with me. Kinda what Buffy did with Tara.

 

[cryptwarmer]

OK, technically, I'd watched ALL of Buffy, but it turns out that before I got turned onto it, my hubby had watched a few S1...so, now that we own S1 and finished all the others, he thought I should see what I'd missed.

He put on "The Pack" last night, and there is young Xander in all his glory attempting to RAPE Buffy...!

I know, he's under a spell and all that...yada, yada, yada. And I think I may have fallen asleep before the very end, so maybe he felt terrible about it and went to the other side of the planet to be tortured in penance...before the final credits rolled. But, yeah...

Seems she forgave him pretty quickly for this and many other Xander flub ups over the years, both those that were magically induced and those that were caused by his own loopy decision making.

And apparently he forgave himself as well, didn't ask her to keep him chained in a basement, to stake him, or to keep her newly hatched little sis away. He knew he was fallible, but felt he was worth the second, third, and sixteenth chance.

So maybe his "getting over" Spike's actions are not out of character after all. Maybe he suddenly recalled trying to get Buffy on her back himself?

anyway, I was way shocked to see that scene. Maybe more so going "backwards" as I did, having seen the Spike version first. The scene with Xander was at least as brutal, and with a level of cruel enjoyment and malice that was lacking in Spike's attempt.

 

[Girl with Sword]

Skytteflickan88
I like your analogy but what your kind of saying is that vampires aren't to blame for what they do. I agree that a soul means something diffrent to different people but here's what's special about Spike: he doesn't need a soul. Using your analogy he's still under the influenece of the drug but fights it. I'm not saying that Angel's weak, I'm just saying that Spike is incredibly strong. Yes, he first started fighting demons because he couldn't hurt humans and wanted to hit something. I hate to sing an old tune but the chip didn't make him do the following: Get pounded by Glory. Take care of Dawn. Help the scoobies run from Glory. Get pushed off a tower trying to save Dawn. Stay all of that summer taking care of Dawn. Put up with all of Buffy's shit to him and get a soul.

Angel did some pretty shady stuff even after he got a soul. Such as leaving a hotel full of people to a demon. Killing criminals. Sleeping with Darla and locking in Wolfram and Hart with Drusilla and Darla. And that's just what we know of.

Buffy did forgive Spike. It's not as well shown in season 6 as it is in season 5 but Dawn is the most important person in Buffy's life. Keep Dawn safe has always been one of her top proirities. She didn't fully forgive him but that's quite understandable. If you notice, she's dissapointed when she comes to his crypt and he's not there. Mostly just because, hey, another one driven away by Buffy Summers".


There were other reasons Buffy didn't want to except that Spike could love her without a soul. She was franticly clinging to her old black and white view of the world. She was scared of what her friends would think. She was scared of love by that point.

But she also clung to this fairytale image of her and Angel. That thier love "could stand through anything" or whatever. It obviously can't.

Angel was a sadistic mass murderer too. It was longer ago but he still was. Spike went through a creepy stalker faze for a while after OOMM but he had to pass through obsession to get to love(I could talk about the thin line between love and hate for a another hour so I'll stop). I could see how that would be creepy.

Buffy wanted soething to be wrong with her because her life was in shambles and changing and she wanted something to blame. That's a different subject all together.

I agree that Xander is a total hypocrite. Anya has been around longer than Spike and Angel, she's probably killed more people. Xander generaly sticks to his first immpression of people.
Xander: Vampires, I'm gonna go ahead and say there not nice.
He sticks to that. He only changes his first immpession for love, ex;
Cordelia, Anya.

 

[white avenger]

When did Xander find out Spike had a soul (which means that it was actually okay for him not to hate Spike)?

After the short talk he had with Buffy in Beneath You ("OK, in the biggest way, I am not loving this plan. I am not loving Spike. He tried to rape you.") Did he react to, or talk about Spike after that, before of after he found out about the soul?

Do you think Xander should have reacted differently.

I do have some questions about Buffy to, like; Why did she want to hide Dawn with Spike after the attempt, why didn't she kill him in the basement(season 7) and so on, buy I figure that she understood that he would never try again.

1) Xander had just found out about Spike having a soul, because Buffy had just found out herself in the previous episode, which was supposed to have happened only a short time (hours at least, or possibly the next night.

2) If Xander and Buffy ever discussed the consequences of Spike having a soul in relationship to the attempted rape, it was never shown, and he did seem to accept the fact that Spike was more or less under Buffy's protection, and therefore no longer allowed to be a targer of his verbal attacks. He even seemed to have a grudging trust for him by "Him," to the point that they worked together to solve the mystery of RJ's enchanted jacket.

3) Despite whatever Spike had tried to do to Buffy in "Seeing Red," she never doubted that he was still devoted to Dawn and would never let anything harm her.

4) When Buffy first saw Spike in the school basement, she was once again most primarily concerned with Dawn's welfare. Staking him, since he quite obviously, in his condition, offered no threat to anyone, was the farthest thing from her mind. She still hadn't completely put the events of "Seeing Red" behind her, however, hence her reactions in "From Beneath You It Devours," both when they accidentally touch and later when he hits Anya in the Bronze.

Despite everything that passed between Spike and Buffy in Season 6, I don't think that Buffy ever forgot her promise to him in Season 5: "What you did for me and my sister, that was real. I won't forget it." I think that that was when Spike earned his famous "get out of jail free" card from Buffy, and, despite everything that came later, call it trust or call it love, she remained true to her word: she never forgot.