Reality

Wicked

Trampy Mc*****
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Look, a new thread 😀

Anyway, Ive brought this up in a couple of threads before but I think it deserves its own.

How much of the "reality" in Buffy do you think is real? Im not takling about vampires, demons etc, existing in this world, I mean how much of what the characters believe to be real, really is?

Jasmine cliams to have fiddled with Angel and the gangs lives to be crossed from wherever she was.
The monks changed everyones reality when they created Dawn.
The gangs memories were changed to forget Connor.
Buffy had that alternate reality in Normal Again. It was never proved to be the false one.
Then there are witches like Willow who can change memories and demons like Anya who can create alternate realities.

There are probably more things Im forgetting about. So my question is, with all these memory and life changing things happening, what is actually real?
And what do you think would be different if some of these things hadnt happened?
 
Well, the obvious place to start is asking yourself what you consider reality to be. The fact is that whatever alterations have been made by various sources, reality is reality in the Buffyverse. Dawn exists. Connor has a new life. Jasmine came to be. That is how it is and that is reality now.

But if you are asking exactly what exists that should have existed then it's a matter of seperating changed reality from changed perception. Then, on top of that, you also have to take into account that some "altered reality" may in fact just be whatever was meant to be. Confused yet?

In the case of Dawn, reality was essentially added to, rather than changed. We have been lead to believe that everything we saw happen over the previous four seasons still happened, just with the gang now having added memory of Dawn being a superficial part of it. She clearly wasn't a part of the Scoobies proper even in the later seasons so it's easy to imagine that her "presence" in the gang's various memories alters very little. Just a case of now they remember that Buffy had an annoying little sister who didn't really get involved that much whilst they were fighting the likes of the Master, Angelus, the Mayor and Adam. From the start of season five though, reality actually was that Dawn was a human rather than a glowing ball of energy so from then on reality was what it was.

With Connor it's more difficult to establish exactly how different things are in the minds of Angel's team but in fact this wasn't a case of reality changing at all. Purely that certain people's perception of what happened had been altered. The events of the previous two years clearly still occured but whatever part Connor had played in them was no longer true, at least as far as anyone remembered. There is a thread for this topic already so I won't dwell on it here as well.

Jasmine didn't alter reality at all. She altered fate. She manipulated events to happen as she needed them to in order to be reborn but there was no alteration to reality. All she really changed was what was expected to happen. Or did she? Again, that is another thread that I'm going to start, hehe.

The Normal Again thing, I honestly believe that Buffy was imagining the whole asylum thing. I realise that it was left a little open to opinion but at the end of the day either she was dreaming the asylum or everything else was made up, in which case every single thing we are discussing on this board, let alone this thread, is bogus reality, which kinda defeats the object. 😀

The fact that witches can alter memories is actually no more reality altering than if a person gets hypnotized in real life. Again, that is perception being altered rather than reality.

What Anya did in The Wish is actually the truest example of reality altering that we have seen in Buffy or Angel. In that case a point in history actually was altered leading to a massive change in the events the followed. This wasn't just about how people saw reality, it really was a totally different world.
 
Well, the obvious place to start is asking yourself what you consider reality to be. The fact is that whatever alterations have been made by various sources, reality is reality in the Buffyverse. Dawn exists. Connor has a new life. Jasmine came to be. That is how it is and that is reality now.

But if you are asking exactly what exists that should have existed then it's a matter of seperating changed reality from changed perception. Then, on top of that, you also have to take into account that some "altered reality" may in fact just be whatever was meant to be. Confused yet?
Ok, youre picking apart my point here. When I said "reality" I meant everything youve just described. Realitly be added to or taken away from. Fate being changed, whatever. Just putting it the way I did made it simpler and easier for me to make my point 🙂

In the case of Dawn, reality was essentially added to, rather than changed. We have been lead to believe that everything we saw happen over the previous four seasons still happened, just with the gang now having added memory of Dawn being a superficial part of it. She clearly wasn't a part of the Scoobies proper even in the later seasons so it's easy to imagine that her "presence" in the gang's various memories alters very little. Just a case of now they remember that Buffy had an annoying little sister who didn't really get involved that much whilst they were fighting the likes of the Master, Angelus, the Mayor and Adam. From the start of season five though, reality actually was that Dawn was a human rather than a glowing ball of energy so from then on reality was what it was.
I can imagine Dawns presence (even if she wasnt part of the Scoobies) would have a large effect on things. I have a little brother and even though we never did anything together, if he hadnt have been there, things would be drastically different. In Buffys case, things like her dad leaving and telling her mum about her Slayerness would all be drastically different. This would have effected things a lot. So even if Dawn didnt spend so much time with Buffy, she still would have changed a lot. Another example is Buffy finding out about her mum and Dawns book club and the nickname Joyce had for Dawn. She felt jealous that her mum shared this with Dawn but not her. If Dawn hadnt existed she wouldnt have these feelings. It may have changed her attitude towards things and changed a lot of her life. You get what I mean?

With Connor it's more difficult to establish exactly how different things are in the minds of Angel's team but in fact this wasn't a case of reality changing at all. Purely that certain people's perception of what happened had been altered. The events of the previous two years clearly still occured but whatever part Connor had played in them was no longer true, at least as far as anyone remembered. There is a thread for this topic already so I won't dwell on it here as well.
This is kind of the same as the Dawn thing, but in reverse. If Connor wasnt there, things would have changed so much. What happened to Holtz? He came after Angel but if Connor wasnt there, why didnt he kill Angel? He was after revenge after all. What happened to Wes? If he didnt steal Connor, do they still have memories of him betraying them? that would have a major impact on their lives.

Jasmine didn't alter reality at all. She altered fate. She manipulated events to happen as she needed them to in order to be reborn but there was no alteration to reality. All she really changed was what was expected to happen. Or did she? Again, that is another thread that I'm going to start, hehe.
Altering fate has the same effects. If she hadnt, their lives would have taken different paths. We saw that in Birthday. So what would have happened if she didnt fiddle with things. What would their lives be like? Would they even know each other? It has a big effect on how thier lives were and what thier reality was.

The Normal Again thing, I honestly believe that Buffy was imagining the whole asylum thing. I realise that it was left a little open to opinion but at the end of the day either she was dreaming the asylum or everything else was made up, in which case every single thing we are discussing on this board, let alone this thread, is bogus reality, which kinda defeats the object. 😀
I believe she was too but for the sake of arguement I put it in here. After all, we dont know for certain 🙂

The fact that witches can alter memories is actually no more reality altering than if a person gets hypnotized in real life. Again, that is perception being altered rather than reality.
Ok but think about this. They caught Willow changing their memories twice. Whats to say she hasnt done it more than those two times but they just never caught her? In which case things arent the way they thought they were.

What Anya did in The Wish is actually the truest example of reality altering that we have seen in Buffy or Angel. In that case a point in history actually was altered leading to a massive change in the events the followed. This wasn't just about how people saw reality, it really was a totally different world.
Yeah I know it was a different world but the point is, if they can do that, what else can they do?

Another example. Jonathan in Superstar. he changed reality in a big way! He got the spell from someone else so other people could have used the sasme spell. in fact people must have.
 
Sorry, Wicked. I wasn't intentionally setting about to pick your thread apart, hon, but I do honestly think that many of the examples you offered up are basically different ideas.

It boils down to what you actually consider reality to be and how much perception plays a part in that. It's the old "if a tree falls in the woods and nobody is around to hear then does it make a sound?" debate. Is reality as we judge it purely a design of what we comprehend with our various senses and is the past just a matter of what you remember?

Reality, in it's strictest sense, is what is. Perception of reality is a different matter. When the colours blue and red were actually given those names thousands of years ago we learned to comprehend them in that certain way. If somebody was to somehow rewrite our memories to switch their names around so that when we looked at the colour blue we considered it to be called red then reality wouldn't actually change. Blue would still be blue. We would just comprehend it to be red. See what I mean?

Basically, reality itself seldom was altered on either Buffy or Angel so things actually were exactly as fate deemed them to be. In some cases people no longer percieved why that was so, in others reality was a result of definate manipulation, but it was still reality.

So I do get what you are saying but to properly look at the topic you have to first specify exactly what is changed reality and what is a case of reality being what it should be, just as a result of sweeping change. That might seem a little like nitpicking but there is a fundamental difference.

All that aside, I do absolutely believe that the Jasmine example cannot apply. She may have effected things but not by altering reality, just by influencing it. If you consider Jasmine's acts as altering reality you could then follow that Buffy altered reality when she chose to kill the Master, or Xander changed reality by asking Anya to marry him. Jasmine was effecting things on a large scale but she was not altering reality anymore than we all do every time we choose to do something or influence others to change their minds.
 
I knew what you meant in your first post. But like I said, I just used the term "reality" because it was easier for me to get my point across. But like I said, I meant reality, perception, all these things that changed their lives from what they once were.

Although I do get what youre saying about the Jasmine thing 🙂
 
i agree about the Jasmine thing...she didn't change reality, so much as alter the discions of others to get what she wanted.
now that isn't to say that some of the things that did happen wouldn't have happened if Jasmine hadn't inteferred. reality wouldn't have really changed that much.
Willow's mind altering spell wasn't exactly reality altering either. she simply changed the perception of a single person so that they forgot one single event...Tara still remembered everything else that had happened, just not her fight with Willow. Tebula Rasa can't be counted as reality altering either, because the Scoobs minds were just wiped clean. all the events that took plave before that still existed, they just didn't remember. and they got their memories back anyhow, so no foul.
True reality altering only existed in The Wish, when Anya completely changed the world and everyone's memories. one single event, Buffy's mom choosing to go to Cleveland instead of Sunnydale, created a chain of events that destroyed the world as we knew it. nothing in that reality was even similar to what the world had once been.

one theory that came to me while writing this post, is that if Giles smashed Anay's pendant because he knew that doing so would erase all the spells she ever created, what else did he undo? he turned the world back to the one we all knew, sure, but that can't have been the first time Anya altered reality.
so back destroying the pendant, did Giles accidentally set something else in motion?
 
See thats part of my point. Who knows what else has been changed and how much the world and everyone in it had been messed with.

And the whole changing perception thing still stands for me. If you change someones memories withut their knowledge, they will continue to believe thats how things are meant to be, because they dont know any better. Just like when Anya changed reality. They didnt know it wasnt meant to be like that. So chnging perception isnt much different. My point still stands.

As for the Willow thing, yeah she just erased a fight, but given enough power and a reason to do it, much more than that can be changed. For example, wiping Connor from memory. Ok, Willow didnt do much harm, but only because they found out about it. If Willow hadnt been found out, she may not have stopped the magic and she may have ended up doing much worse. Like Tabula Rasa on a bigger scale. We've seen that messing with peoples memories can change so much. The whole Connor and Dawn thing.
 
I got the impression that the altered reality was the first time that Anya had ever granted a wish that altered things on such a grand scale. Usually it was much more mundane (causing a wisher's ex-boyfriend to eat his own eyes, that kind of thing 🙂). So if Giles did reverse any other wishes the chances are that it was nothing too large a scale.

Actually, the demon that returned in Hell's Bells (old man Xander) was clearly still under the influence of whatever Anya had once done to him so I'd have to assume that Giles was only able to alter the most immediate wish made, that being Cordy's.
 
Yeah but Anyas not the only vengence demon. there are a lot more. Even if Anya hadnt done it before, doesnt mean others havent.
 
No, that is true enough, Wicked. It's possible that other demons, witches or other magical types had been altering reality for some time.

Only problem there is that if you start assuming that then you could assume that every single thing we saw on Buffy and Angel was a result of a vengeance demon altering reality the day before Buffy became the slayer, so everything we ever saw was altered reality. I reckon it's easier to just go with what we know changed or we could go on guessing forever, hehe. 😀
 
Hehe, although that could be fun for the fan fiction writers. Not me though. I cant write at all 🙂
 
exactly. we have no way of knowing what exactly any other vengance demons might have changed. we could end up guessing all day.
i think, for the purpose of this discussion, that we stick with what we know was changed.
and one that, what about 'Birthday'? reality was changed in that ep to give Cordy thelife they thought she deserved. what did that do to everything else? to life in Sunnydale? did Doyle still die saving those half breed demons? and if so, how did Angel receive the visions?
 
Honestly I doubt that could have changed Sunnydale too much. They didnt have much contact with anyone in Sunnydale by that point.

We know Doyle died so he probably died the same way. No reason why not.
 
no, the Sunnydale lot didn't have contact with that at that point, but they did in S1, and in this reality Cordy weasn't around then. it was just angel and Doyle, or Angel and Wes. i can't remember if Cordy influenced anything directly, but she did call Willow when Harmony turned up in S2, who told her that Harm was a vmap.
lol, this could go on forever!
 
Yeah, Cordy didnt have much contact with anyone but Willow. And that was only once by that point. AHrmony wouldnt even be there if the world was that different. She may have tracked down Cordy but its unlikely anything would have come of it. However, if you look at what would have changed in Sunnydale after that point youd get better answers. Fred and Will had a fair amount of contact. As did Cordy and Will. That would all be different.
 
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