Reconciling IDW's "Angel" with Dark Horse's "Buffy"

[Buffyverse Fan]

So given the shocking new news that apparently IDW's Angel series is most likely canon (Joss heavily implied that it is, and IDW's Editor-in-Chief Chris Ryall explicitly said so), how do you think the two should be reconciled?

Imo, a simple and subtle "retcon" of some of Armstrong's mess is a necessary first step. Here's a monologue I put together heavily referencing Angel's unaired pilot and various other speeches he's made, which I think could bring IDW's up to speed with the Buffyverse pre-Twilight:

My name's Angel.
I was born 254 years ago in Ireland. Small town, good family. 27 years into an unremarkable life, I met a woman, she told me she could show me a world I'd never seen. She wasn't kidding. Life as a vampire was a constant thrill--the power, the danger, the outfits--good outfits. Never getting old, also a plus. But in the end it was all about the kill. The kill was everything to me, it was... art... that was until I killed the wrong girl.

Gypsies, in my experience, are heavily into vengeance. They cursed me, gave me back my soul, my humanity. I had to live with everything I had done, and I had to live forever.
It took another woman to show me that my endless life was worth living, her name is Buffy. She was the first woman I'd ever loved.

I'm not saying it was an easy relationship. She may not have been my first lover to tell me to go to hell, but she was the first to send me there--100 years to be exact.
But it was real, I guess I knew it couldn't last. You see my curse, my soul was meant to be a burden. If I ever found peace, a moment of true happiness, and I'll become a monster again. So I had to leave.

I wanted to shut out the world. Two and a half centuries of travel, and the most solitary place I knew was LA--a sea of people who all managed to be by themselves.

My isolation was short-lived. It turned out some higher powers had a destiny in mind for me. My guide, my friend, found me. His name was Doyle. Three centuries of existence and he was the first true friend I'd ever had. He set me on my path to becoming a hero, and gave his life so I could keep fighting.

My next guide came in an unlikely form, a cheerleader I'd known since her high school days. She came to LA to be a star, but they weren't hiring. Not much of an actress, but one heck of a woman.

Along with a would-be Rogue Demon Hunter, we did what we could to make the world a better place. A Physicist, a Warrior-turned-Attorney, and an Extra-Dimensional Karaoke Singer rounded out my team, my family.

Then a miracle happened. I had a son, with Darla no less. We spread death and destruction for 100 years, but Connor was the one good thing we did together.

Meddling from Higher-Powers tore my family apart. There was betrayal, compromise and a surprising amount of inappropriate eroticism.

Cordelia was violated by a Power That Was. In exchange for Cordy's life and the free will of humanity, the Power offered world peace. The price was too high, and I buried the woman I loved.

Several Faustian deals later and I was in a position to halt the gears of the law firm that kept the world from becoming a better place. I executed my carefully laid plans, and... I was wrong.

Again the price was too high. We lost the city of Los Angeles. Have you ever tried looking yourself in the mirror after sending 10 million people to hell? Ironically, the first time I had a reflection in years was that day.

I couldn't go on like that, so I got us out of there. My actions weren't without consequence though. I buried another of my lieutenants. Doyle, Cordy, Fred, Wesley, all gave their lives fighting my battle. For a while there, I thought I had paid my debt. Like is often the case, I was wrong.

Now I continue the good fight in their memory. Wolfram & Hart has been MIA for months, and my ranks replenished by the ex-boyfriends of my former lovers. Yet another sect of Rogue Powers That Be are threatening my city. One of their soldiers has joined my team, but thousands still remain to stand against us.

Buffy managed to activate countless new Slayers, and things are only getting worse by the day. The fight may very well be never-ending, but for now, I say damn the prophecies, damn "destiny," let's get to work.

NOTE: The last three paragraphs subtly "retcon" the main issues where Armstrong broke Whedon's canon. Angel's mission of redemption being over, Angel brushes off as a momentary indiscretion. And her bizarre makeover of TPTB turns out to be simply another splinter sect of PTB like Jasmine.

 

[white avenger]

Personally, I would love to discount the entire IDW "Angel" series, beginning with the most ridiculous deus ex machina that I have read in decades, the dragon suddenly changing sides and incinerating all of W&H's army in the alley. If I were trying to reconcile the two universes, I would have a temporal split at that precise instant, sending IDWverse Angel plunging into hell, and having Buffyverse Angel and his crew fight their way out of the alley with some more believable last minute rescue, like, say, all of the demons and vampires in the LA area joining forces with Angel to keep a gang of outsiders from taking over their turf. Simple and fairly believable, on the principal of two otherwise opposing groups joining forces against a common enemy.

Once that was done, then we could progress along until Angel and Buffy occupy the same timeline. In the meantime, Angel and the Initiative form a partnership to fight the evil demons. Eventually, something happens (maybe Nina, who has been Angel's lover all this time, is accidentally killed by some local Slayers, and Angel snaps, going Dark in a Dark Willow sense, as opposed to reverting to Angelus. Dark Angel swears vengeance against all Slayers everywhere, even Buffy, under whose orders the LA Slayers had been working, and takes command of a special unit of the Initiative, Team Twilight, originally set up to serve as a first line of defense in the upcoming Apocalypse, and proceeds to destroy everything supernatural that he comes in contact with, Slayers, Witches, and Watchers included.

And that leads us up to the present.

And IDW can keep their ol' fake Angel, we never liked him anyway!

 

[AndrewCrossett]

Sorry to say, Chris Ryall's definition of "canon" would mean that every single thing ever legally published with the "Buffy" name on it is canon. Everything gets sent to and approved by Fox and Mutant Enemy. This is a contractual obligation.

He has a vested interest in not calling the Angel series non-canon, because it has a very significant impact on sales. I don't think anyone -- including Joss -- really expects him to come out and say, "no, our series doesn't count anymore in the 'real' Buffyverse." And Joss certainly would be courteous enough not to say it.

It's canon if Joss wrote it or supervised it, and it's not canon if he didn't. Joss explicitly said in his CBR interview the other day that he hasn't even read the Angel comics since his and Brian's arc finished. And Bill Willingham confirmed in his statement that Joss has nothing to do with his story. The IDW comics are professionally written stories created under license from Fox. But they're not canon.

Joss is under no obligation to recognize story elements that were introduced without him. So you won't see him saying, "I was going to have Angel say this, but I can't because it would contradict what he said in issue #57 of the Angel comic written by Joe Schmoe." He's the only one who guides his story.

In this case, out of fairness and courtesy to IDW, who have the Angel comics license, Joss and Dark Horse have agreed not to directly contradict anything that's happened in the Angel comics up to now.

(As it happens, I don't think what season 8 has planned for Angel would much affect his story in the IDW comic anyway.)

 

[Buffyverse Fan]

Because of Aftermath alone, I'd prefer the series to stay non-canon, but:
[quote="Chris Ryall]From the start, we've submitted everything to Fox and Mutant Enemy for approval. And when we get that approval, in my mind, that has always meant what we did was canon. I mean, it'd be folly for me to expect Joss to approve everything himself. But I also know that him getting involved more directly on After the Fall really got people to stand up and pay attention to a greater degree.

So when Willingham says Joss isn't involved in his book, he means he's writing them and submitting them for approval, but the story idea and script and dialogue come from him. When they come back approved, same as anything, that's canon to me. We're doing stories that pick up on elements following After the Fall, so short of Joss Exec-Producing our comic too, I don't really see how these are anything but canon.

Angel might be appearing in Buffy now, but I'll be damned if they can use without a full crossover taking place!

Joss once said "anything IDW does is canon.

But really, to give an actual answer, the creator of the shows/characters never taps anything with his scepter and deems it canon or not"”that's for others to determine. Joss is a storyteller, so if a story suits him, he tells it. He never came to us with After the Fall and said "I'm here to make your stories count." He said (and this is more of a real quote than the above) "I see in Brian Lynch someone who could actually work with me to tell the story of what happens after Season Five ended." But he also told Brian to "use the fish," a character Brian created in Spike: Asylum. So by the strange transitive property of canonization, that means Asylum and other stories with are also thusly canon, and since continues to be in Angel for Willingham's run, that to me makes it all part of the same whole, whether Joss plotted the story over pancakes with Brian or whether Willingham came up with it in the Minnesota hinterlands.

in my mind, him not voicing anything to the contrary is also important. When we get approval, when we're not told "don't do that, Joss doesn't approve of that," it works for me the same way as word saying "go do it."

So all I do, knowing that this is very important to fans of Angel, is do my damndest to be true to established canon and tell stories that extend what has come before. From there, whether you go by "Mutant Enemy approved it" or "Brian Lynch and Joss Whedon broke bread together" or whatever other possibility, that's up to the fans to decide.

In other words, yes, everything we're doing is canon.[/quote]

 

[AndrewCrossett]

Sorry, but Chris Ryall doesn't get to unilaterally declare the stuff he's doing to be canon. And I want to see the citation where Joss ever said "everything IDW does is canon," because that's pure nonsense.

As I said, everything published with the Buffy name on it goes to Fox and Mutant Enemy for sign-off. That has nothing to do with canonicity.

Joss has flat-out said he doesn't even read the current IDW comics. They will not be part of his story. Therefore, they are not canon.

 

[ubi4soft]

If they wanted, it can be done. DH and IDW's scope are to keep their fans interested, but the final word is up to Joss.

S8 could end with Buffy stopping/defeating/reverting Twilight's actions but stating in conclusion that probably he was right. We don't know yet why Twilight wants to end the magic, maybe he wants to stop forever the interference of various supreme beings TPTB, W&H, Senior Partners. And S9 could be the arc to Frayverse with Buffy ending the magic.

In S8 I think we'll have only Twilight motivations and if he wants, after Willingham arcs ended, Joss could write again with IDW showing them in detail. And he also could incorporate some post AtF original characters and make them canon (like he did with "the fish")

DH and IDW could continue their stories even after S9 ended the verse, ala telling stories to grandchildren.

 

[Tranquillity]

Well it all depends on how they explain Angel being Twilight. If Season eight has a good explanation and solid storytelling behind the story then it souldn't be difficult for IDW to jibe (man I hate that word) their Angel stories with Dark Horses'. Like, if it is Angel from the future (as many suspect) then IDW has years of stories before they need to worry about his Twilight-isation or, better still they have a golden opportunity to document the gradual transformation. IDW would be crazy if they don't make use of this - their character - who, as much as I love him - is not the most exciting comic book character to grace the pages of the graphic novel - has just been given an edge that makes him all the more interesting. But If Dark Horse's explanation is less than sound or alienates the fandom or makes Angel unsympethetic then it might be very bad news for IDW and Angel's future there. But yeah, I think we have to wait for a little bit more of the story to unfold before we can make any guesses.

 

[AndrewCrossett]

Here's what Bill Willingham, current writer of the Angel comics, said in a message to ComicBookResources.com:

Five scripts in, and counting, on IDW's ongoing Angel comic book series, I am not coordinating, nor have I ever coordinated stories with Scott Allie, Joss Whedon, nor anyone else at Dark Horse Comics. No one at IDW has ever instructed me, or suggested to me, ways in which I might conform my scripts to what is going on with Dark Horse's Buffy comics, which I've purposely not read, specifically to avoid being influenced by them. I've had exactly one short conversation, in passing, with Joss Whedon, which took place years ago and had nothing to do with these matters. To my knowledge I've never had a conversation with Scott Allie, beyond being introduced to him, at conventions and such, though I doubt even that much contact has occurred. I have however been told, in no uncertain terms, that Mr. Whedon is not available for contact concerning anything to do with the Angel series at IDW, because he is only working with Dark Horse. So I'm not sure how Scott Allie imagines he and Mr. Whedon plan to coordinate IDW's Angel series into their Buffy series, as is implied in the seventh paragraph of your article.

And Joss said this, in his interview for CBR:

But again, it's a question of leaving everything that IDW is doing "“ and I'm not aware of everything they're doing, and I haven't read a lot of the stuff "“ and giving just enough [on our end] so it'll jibe with whatever they're doing. It's not like Spike's going to turn up and now he's a werewolf. He'll still be Spike, and we won't constrict them from doing whatever stories they want.

Finally, I asked Scott Allie for confirmation of exactly what Dark Horse comics should be considered canon. I specifically avoided asking about IDW comics, since it would be unprofessional to comment on the status of another company's work. However, this gives a good view of the canon question from the editor-in-chief of the country's third-largest comics publisher, which has published Buffy comics for over a decade, and who has worked with Joss on a near-daily basis for the past three years.

Me: The question of "canon" has reared its head again with all this business with squaring things up with the IDW comics. The usual (but not universally accepted) definition is that anything Joss writes or supervises is canon, and everything else is stuff done under license from Fox -- official, but not canon. "Canon" is the stuff that Joss himself considers part of *his* story, and that will be recognized as part of the history of these characters when he writes about them.

The usual list of comics canon is: From Dark Horse -- Buffy season 8 and the ancillary webcomics; Tales of the Slayers; Tales of the Vampires; Fray; Buffy: The Origin. And from IDW, the After the Fall comics he plotted with Brian. (Issues 1-17 and 23).

Are there any other Dark Horse comics we should be accepting as canon?

Scott Allie: Nope, those are them. Obviously all our Serenity stuff is canon, but in terms of Buffy, I think your list covers it. I don't count as canon those early comics we did with Jane and Doug, before Joss was working directly with us, like Ring of Fire and Haunted. With the old Buffy comics, of which I did a LOT, the goal was to do stories that fit with canon, that didn't conflict with anything, and which would never call your attention to their non-canon status. That goes for everything in the Omnibuses with the obvious exception of Origin. But maintaining that dance between canon and non-canon got so difficult toward the end that I launched back to Year One, and told stories that I was pretty sure Joss would never contradict, only because I knew he'd never flashback very much. For those Year One comics, I talked to him about what I was gonna do, and he told me it was okay, nixed an idea or two. But the concept of canon in licensed comics has really evolved in recent years. Season 8 has a lot to do with that, and a lot to do with comics like Jericho, and IDW's Star Trek Countdown"”nothing like this was being done ten years ago. Well, maybe something was, but not to this extent.

 

[ubi4soft]

Thank you very much, Scott Allie just dismissed Spike AtF as non-canon, but the fish is canon.

 

[AndrewCrossett]

Scott said nothing at all about Spike AtF or any other IDW comic. I only asked him about Dark Horse comics.

I think the Spike miniseries is acceptable as canon because it was written as part of the After the Fall project, which was a collaboration between Joss and Brian. Joss "executive produced" the whole thing. I just forgot to mention it in the list I gave to Scott, but it doesn't matter because it's not a DH comic and he wouldn't be able to comment on it.

Betta George is canon in so far as his appearances in After the Fall.

 

[AndrewCrossett]

By the way, here's the full quote from the "Joss said anything IDW does is canon" bit:

I'm pretty sure"”don't quote me on this"”that Joss once said "anything IDW does is canon. Transformers? Bat Boy? Even those Bloom County reprints? Yep, all part of the Whedonverse canon." Joss was likely heavily medicated when he said this.

So he was joking about that part.

He's defining "canon" differently than most fans do... a lot of casual fans don't know or care about the difference between "legally licensed" and "canonical." Especially those who are Angel fans and not really Joss fans per se.

 

[Buffyverse Fan]

By the way, here's the full quote from the "Joss said anything IDW does is canon" bit:



So he was joking about that part.

He's defining "canon" differently than most fans do... a lot of casual fans don't know or care about the difference between "legally licensed" and "canonical." Especially those who are Angel fans and not really Joss fans per se.

He may have been joking in that sentence, but he reiterated in the beginning and end of the interview that everything IDW does is canon.

Personally I agree with you. I might be pulling for Ryall if he made the effort, like Allie did in the early days, to keep his title from contradicting canon, but I've found at least three post-AtF things that have heavily contradicted established Angel lore.

1.) Angel's mission of redemption is over.
Which Joss & Fury said would never happen, at least not until Angel's story ended.

2.) Angel still thought that The Powers That Be are entirely good and perfect.
Even though since Season Three, Angel was very skeptical of their intent, and often criticized them to the point of mostly severing his relationship with them in his later days.

3.) Willingham seems to think Angel is some sort of aspiring playboy even though as his friends often used to joke, he was more of a eunuch than anything else, lol.

 

[AndrewCrossett]

What it really comes down to is "No Joss, No Canon."

There's a temptation to use canon as a measure of quality, but it isn't. There can be canon stuff that sucks, and even canon stuff that's got serious continuity issues. ("Tales of the Slayers: Broken Bottle of Djinn" springs right to mind.) It's not an insult to say something is non-canon... it just means Joss wasn't involved in it as writer, plotter or supervisor. It's not part of his story, bad or good.

 

[Buffyverse Fan]

What it really comes down to is "No Joss, No Canon."

There's a temptation to use canon as a measure of quality, but it isn't. There can be canon stuff that sucks, and even canon stuff that's got serious continuity issues. ("Tales of the Slayers: Broken Bottle of Djinn" springs right to mind.) It's not an insult to say something is non-canon... it just means Joss wasn't involved in it as writer, plotter or supervisor. It's not part of his story, bad or good.

I'm not talking quality, I'm talking major continuity issues. Imo, if someone contradicts the continuity Joss created, regardless of who it is, the material becomes non-canon.

I don't care if Joss gives his team carte blanche and Espenson, Fury, Bell, Noxon, and Greenwalt write on issue of Season Eight where Buffy makes an off-handed remark that she lost her virginity to Darla. It would be automatically non-canon to me.

 

[Joan the Vampire Slayer]

Buffversefan, I love how you've written this monologue so in character for Angel; it really sounds like him! I also like how you say that Buffy was the first woman Angel had ever loved, not the only like some fans believe.

Now, regarding all this insane continuity stuff; I'm not actually well-versed in ATF so in reference to this line "the first time I had a reflection in years was that day" what are you referring too?

At this point, I think the only way that these two comics can be reconciled is if Twilight is FutureAngel. Or, if somehow Angelus has been disconnected from Angel, and they are now two separate bodies.

I think that in order for Angel to be Twilight he would have had to have given up in his attempt at "earning" his humanity. If this the case, in my mind, he is no longer the Angel we know. His fight for his redemption is who he is. If Angel is no longer fighting for his redemption, then he's capable of anything - right? Perhaps something has happened in the future that is so catastrophic for him that he became evil?

Honestly, I find all this continuity/canon stuff confusing.

Also, could someone explain to me the whole timeline thing? At what time is BS8 taking place in relation to ATF and now, the IDW comics?

It's canon if Joss wrote it or supervised it, and it's not canon if he didn't. Joss explicitly said in his CBR interview the other day that he hasn't even read the Angel comics since his and Brian's arc finished. And Bill Willingham confirmed in his statement that Joss has nothing to do with his story. The IDW comics are professionally written stories created under license from Fox. But they're not canon.

This is what I've always believed, but it seems at this point, we're being told to believe otherwise?

What it really comes down to is "No Joss, No Canon.

Again, yes I agree, but is this true anymore, based on what comments we have read? These opposing comments we have been getting me mighty confused.

I want to tear my hair out, honestly.

 

[Buffyverse Fan]

Buffversefan, I love how you've written this monologue so in character for Angel; it really sounds like him! I also like how you say that Buffy was the first woman Angel had ever loved, not the only like some fans believe.

Haha, thanks Joan, but I stole most of that from the Unaired Angel Pilot and various other monologues.

The Buffy part was mine though. Personally, I think he loves Buffy most, but I also think he loves Cordy, and probably Ensouled!Darla. He also said he loved Fred, but more in the way he loved Doyle.

Now, regarding all this insane continuity stuff; I'm not actually well-versed in ATF so in reference to this line "the first time I had a reflection in years was that day" what are you referring too?

A few minutes after the Season Five Finale ("Not Fade Away") cut out, Angel was made human again. During the entire stretch of After the Fall, Angel was a normal human being. The only reason he was still somewhat formidable was because Ghost!Wesley helped him use dangerous magicks, similar to what Lindsay was using in You're Welcome.

At this point, I think the only way that these two comics can be reconciled is if Twilight is FutureAngel. Or, if somehow Angelus has been disconnected from Angel, and they are now two separate bodies.

I think that in order for Angel to be Twilight he would have had to have given up in his attempt at "earning" his humanity. If this the case, in my mind, he is no longer the Angel we know. His fight for his redemption is who he is. If Angel is no longer fighting for his redemption, then he's capable of anything - right? Perhaps something has happened in the future that is so catastrophic for him that he became evil?

Honestly, I find all this continuity/canon stuff confusing.

Also, could someone explain to me the whole timeline thing? At what time is BS8 taking place in relation to ATF and now, the IDW comics?

It is darned confusing, but here's the timetable:

After the Fall: 2004
IDW's Angel: 2004-2005
Buffy Season Eight: ~2007-~2011

This is what I've always believed, but it seems at this point, we're being told to believe otherwise?

Again, yes I agree, but is this true anymore, based on what comments we have read? These opposing comments we have been getting me mighty confused.

I want to tear my hair out, honestly.

Me too! Chris Ryall really made me more confused than any other Buffyverse Official

 

[Joan the Vampire Slayer]

Haha, thanks Joan, but I stole most of that from the Unaired Angel Pilot and various other monologues.

The Buffy part was mine though. Personally, I think he loves Buffy most, but I also think he loves Cordy, and probably Ensouled!Darla. He also said he loved Fred, but more in the way he loved Doyle.

Agreed.

A few minutes after the Season Five Finale ("Not Fade Away") cut out, Angel was made human again. During the entire stretch of After the Fall, Angel was a normal human being. The only reason he was still somewhat formidable was because Ghost!Wesley helped him use dangerous magicks, similar to what Lindsay was using in You're Welcome.

Ah.

...GhostWes? Hmm. I really need to read this.

*goes to buy the comics*

It is darned confusing, but here's the timetable:

After the Fall: 2004
IDW's Angel: 2004-2005
Buffy Season Eight: ~2007-~2011

Thanks for that info.

So, there is a direct continuity violation between the ATF and the IDW comics; How will they explain Angel being in two places at one time?

Me too! Chris Ryall really made me more confused than any other Buffyverse Official

Yep. *shakes head*

The poor fandom, we're all a fluster.

 

[AndrewCrossett]

This is what I've always believed, but it seems at this point, we're being told to believe otherwise?

The people who are telling you otherwise, don't have the standing to tell you otherwise.

I'm not accusing Chris Ryall of being a liar, but he is a guy who's in business to sell comics, and he's going to spin things as favorably for his position as he can by defining "canon" the way he wants to. Asking him if his comics are canon is like asking a PC salesman whether you should buy a PC or a Mac. The fact is, Joss does not consider the current Angel comics to be canon, nor does he even read them.

And there are always continuity issues in a story this big. Has nothing to do with canonicity. Reconciling and fanwanking are always going to be necessary to some degree. If Joss ever introduces a continuity problem so big it would constitute a retcon -- like saying that Angel never met Buffy, or Spike never got his soul back -- or souled Angel suddenly showed up as a villain -- then he'll give us some reason how that could be. Because he's not an incompetent hack.

 

[Buffyverse Fan]

So, there is a direct continuity violation between the ATF and the IDW comics; How will they explain Angel being in two places at one time?

It's a little confusing, but I'll try to explain...

After the Fall (#1-17 & 23) was published by IDW and Produced by Joss Whedon. It's arguably the only written part of the Buffyverse that all parties agree is 100% canon.

But after Joss finished up After the Fall, IDW contracted Kelley Armstrong & Bill Willingham to continue churning out issues under the same title/series.

This is where the huge confusion is stemming from. Chris Ryall, Editor-in-Chief of IDW, who I personally think seems like a nice guy, has really complicated things.

Joss wrote After the Fall as a self-contained story, similar to the Pylea arc. But Chris has had his own authors printing their own stories under the same title, for example #17 was written by Joss, but #18 was NOT, #23 was written by Joss and #22 was NOT.

And while IDW hasn't directly conflicted with Buffy Season Eight or Joss' issues of After the Fall, the canonization is dubious.

Here's an example:
RANDOM FAN (AndrewC): 'those other Angel issues printed under Joss' original Angel title, but written by Willingham are definitely NOT Canon'!

IDW EDITOR (Ryall): 'Willingham's issues most certainly ARE Canon'!

JOSS: 'We'll make Willingham's IDW issues jibe'.

ANGEL TITLE RUNNER (Willingham): 'I will not work with Whedon, and will make no effort to make Angel jibe with Buffy Season Eight'!!!

ME (Buffyverse Fan): 'Boy am I confused'!

---------- Post added 01-19-2010 at 12:04 AM ---------- Previous post was 01-18-2010 at 11:54 PM ----------

The people who are telling you otherwise, don't have the standing to tell you otherwise.

I'm not accusing Chris Ryall of being a liar, but he is a guy who's in business to sell comics, and he's going to spin things as favorably for his position as he can by defining "canon" the way he wants to. Asking him if his comics are canon is like asking a PC salesman whether you should buy a PC or a Mac. The fact is, Joss does not consider the current Angel comics to be canon, nor does he even read them.

I'm in the same camp as you Andrew, but let's be fair, all Joss would have to say is "Armstrong & Willingham's arcs aren't part of the Buffyverse canon," and there'd be no debate at all. But Joss won't do that. The only one who will give a definitive answer is Chris Ryall, and it may be the wrong one, but it's also the only one because Joss dodges the question by saying "it will all jibe."

And there are always continuity issues in a story this big. Has nothing to do with canonicity.

I disagree. If we only look at the big Five sources, it's a pretty tight story (Buffy the Vampire Slayer, Angel, Fray, Buffy Season Eight, and Angel After the Fall).

 

[Kean]

I'm in the same camp as you Andrew, but let's be fair, all Joss would have to say is "Armstrong & Willingham's arcs aren't part of the Buffyverse canon," and there'd be no debate at all. But Joss won't do that. The only one who will give a definitive answer is Chris Ryall, and it may be the wrong one, but it's also the only one because Joss dodges the question by saying "it will all jibe."

When Joss says they will "jibe" what I took him as meaning that nothing will happen in S8 that would make what's going on at IDW impossible. The example he gave himself was that while Spike will appear in the Buffyverse comics somewhere along the line they aren't going to make him a werewolf or do something ludicrous with him that could mess with IDW.


Furthermore, Ryall said that HE considers the IDW comics canon because Fox approves them, well if that's the case then all the books are canon as well as the original batch of comics from Darkhorse. However, we know that isn't the case at all. If Joss isn't signing off on these comics, let alone reading them then they aren't canon.

What I believe is going on is Ryall trying to save the integrity and validity of his work over at IDW. Fans were dropping the Angel book for the very simple reason of it not being canon, of course when pushed he is gona say it is canon! What else could he say. He was doing clean up of the Willingham blow out. On the other side of this mess was Joss who I think was throwing Ryall a bone after this cluster%^&* leak. He basically said the IDW Angel is canon for IDW but not for the verse.

Also, Joss has said many times that nothing happening in S8 will mess with IDW.However, what I haven't heard is him assuring people that nothing that is happening at IDW will mess with S8. To me that says what has gone at IDW is inconsequential to the verse.