Question Relevant ladies...

[Skanky Vamp]

Nice. Referring to a female character as an object.

Would you expect less from me hottstuff?? I got a rep to protect!

Besides I said from the jump I saw her as a plot device.

 

[Lyri]

Referring to her as a plot device is a hell of a lot different than referring to her as an inanimate object, which I find completely degrading, whether you have a 'rep to protect' or not. Though I don't remember this ever being part of any sort of 'rep' you think you had, Sco.

And please don't refer to me as 'hotstuff'. I have a name.

 

[thetopher]

The scythe was an oject that effected the plot, not the characters. It didn't change Buffy in significant way character-wise. She maybe get stronger, or jazzed up a little, so did Faith, but it didn't make their characters different.

Dawn did. Because of Dawn Buffy changed and grew as a character. Dawn didn't just effect the plot, she brought a new dynamic to the characters for all of S5.

You may not like Dawn, that's fine, but don't mistake her for just a plot device or an object- not only is it insulting, its flat out wrong.

Would you expect less from me hottstuff?? I got a rep to protect!

Oh, don't worry. you've made a real strong impression. 😉

 

[Blaze]

Maybe that's the problem then.. I dont really see Dawn as a 'character' ... move along then. Notch that one up to old age. Ya got me.

In this case, what kind of character do you view as relevant? You're comparison the the scythe just goes to prove that the scythe is a relevant object. That makes Dawn is a relevant character. I'm confuse as to why you don't see her as a character.

 

[Skanky Vamp]

I'm confuse as to why you don't see her as a character.

Because she was not a character that was grown organically, ala Faith, Spike, she was a plot device that was meant to end the series.. but because the series continued she had to be forced into a regular/reoccurring character.

 

[Blaze]

Because she was not a character that was grown organically, ala Faith, Spike, she was a plot device that was meant to end the series.. but because the series continued she had to be forced into a regular/reoccurring character.

I think that's a pretty big misconception. Buffy was not going to end at s5. The writers knew that early on, and the actors were always set to have a 7 year contract (which is the reason Buffy ended at s7). So I don't think it's too much of a stretch to think that Joss had plans for s6-7 when he was writing s5. And if Joss didn't want to bring back Dawn, she could have been written out easily (let her die instead of Buffy, make her slowly disappear because she's no longer the key). Joss had options, he chose to keep her, he was in no way forced to make her a regular.

Other characters served as a plot device in the series, Tara and Angel for example, one of which is a pretty dam important character to the series. Just because a character moves the plot forward doesn't mean that they aren't organic.

 

[Skanky Vamp]

Eh, I disagree.. but its beside the topic.. that's just why I would not list Dawn as one of the relevant ladies. IMO other than Buffy there are only three.

 

[Blaze]

IMO other than Buffy there are only three.

Who are those three? I'm genuinely curious.

 

[Skanky Vamp]

Faith, Willow, Joyce... not necessarily in that order..

 

[WillowTaraHolic]

Woah... this topic has spiraled into other things...

All characters serve a purpose in a show. (unless you're just a REALLY bad writer) I mean, even your average nameless vampire has a purpose: to be staked by Buffy or get away. Simple.

@ Lyri: *facepalm* I guess I just never noticed... I'll have to look at it again.

 

[Evil Angelus 95]

(Although I would totally buy an issue of 'The Adventures of Willow and Ghost Tara' 🙂)

I'm seriously beginning to think that I should write a fanfic of this. Short little cute and funny drabbles of happiness 🙂

For me, if I had to "rank" them (Something about that term seems odd/not right), it would be

2. Willow
3. Dawn
4. Anya

Based on impact on other characters, on the show itself, and Buffy herself.

 

[AnthonyCordova]

I don't know what everyone's talking about Amy for. She's as irrelevant as they get. She won't be making any 'important female BtVs characters' wallpaper of mine.

 

[The Bronze]

I think there is a point to be made about when to start measuring Dawns effect as a character. I would say most of the initial massive changes would be credited to the monks. They wrote Dawn into existence and altered everyone else in doing so. It's all personal opinion of course but I think Dawns significance should be judged on what she personally does once the dust has settled rather than the initial "Buffy has a sister now" jolt to reality.

 

[thetopher]

Dawn did a lot more than Joyce on the show, (mainly in S5 and 7) but I think we can all agree that Joyce was signifcant to Buffy.

Dawn was also somewhat significant to Spike's development as a character (in S5) and Tara's as well (in S6) and developed on her own in the background of S7.

I don't know what everyone's talking about Amy for. She's as irrelevant as they get. She won't be making any 'important female BtVs characters' wallpaper of mine.

Well, I only really meant if it were to make up the numbers to 9.
Amy was there from the third episode of S1 right up until the last season (as is still around in the comics as a baddie)

 

[AnthonyCordova]

Dawn did a lot more than Joyce on the show, (mainly in S5 and 7) but I think we can all agree that Joyce was signifcant to Buffy.

Dawn was also somewhat significant to Spike's development as a character (in S5) and Tara's as well (in S6) and developed on her own in the background of S7.


Dawn did a lot more than Joyce on the show, (mainly in S5 and 7) but I think we can all agree that Joyce was signifcant to Buffy.

Dawn was also somewhat significant to Spike's development as a character (in S5) and Tara's as well (in S6) and developed on her own in the background of S7.

I agree with you very much @thetopher. I want to add a few things on that topic of Dawn and her significance for Buffy.

Buffy changed a lot because of Dawn. She learned the meaning of a new kind of love, which ultimately led to a new and deep understanding of self-sacrifice. In a way (only in a certain way, but in a real way) Buffy was more selfish before Dawn. Yes, she put her life on the line every episode to save other peoples lives, but she had a certain selfishness that comes with being the only child. I don't just mean the obvious (before Dawn she had her mother's love all to herself) but more broadly in the sense that she never had to commit to love even when she didn't want to. Loving friends is not the same as loving family. You don't really have a choice in loving your family (from a certain point of view) and that teaches you to love unconditionally in spite of how annoying or painful or difficult they are to tolerate (family). Loving friends is much easier because there isn't that imperative to love them or understand them even if you don't like them as most of us do with family. Friends you can let go of without consequence (or with less consequence). And with friends you don't have to really sacrifice your deep meta self-love and self-importance (I don't mean these in the pejorative either...I mean the natural self-importance and self-love that comes with simply being alive and as a condition of subjectivity) if you don't want to. When Buffy suddenly had Dawn as a sister, a lot of the profound changes in Buffy occur in her interactions with Dawn, in being forced to tolerate and then understand and finally love unconditionally her sister in the deepest way possible simply because she was her sister (and also for even more reasons beyond that). Buffy tapped into a deep well-spring of empathy through Dawn in ways that a mere friend could never inspire in a compatible way. And because Dawn was irritating to Buffy so much and so different and so hard to relate to (and so painful sometimes too), it made the whole process more poignant. Dawn (and her interaction with Buffy during S5) helped Buffy overcome a meta-selfishness she hadn't had reason to challenge or assess in herself before and taught her some deep truths about family and self-sacrifice and broad/more profound empathy in the process. Buffy is a completely different person after Dawn, and that's not just because of Dawn's artificial insertion into her memories and reality, but from her interaction with Dawn and the growth Buffy had to go through side by side with her sister. Dawn is crucially important. I don't think it is easy to overstate her importance and impact.

Well, I only really meant if it were to make up the numbers to 9.
Amy was there from the third episode of S1 right up until the last season (as is still around in the comics as a baddie)

Okay, I see what you mean. And if she still persists in the comics in a significant role then that makes even more sense.

 

[WillowTaraHolic]

This is neither to tear Dawn down the ranks nor bring her up:

Has anyone thought about how the fact that Dawn came to life messed up a fair bit of the first four seasons. Things happened that we didn't see, so basically almost everything before the Dracula episode was all a lie. 🙁

 

[thetopher]

Has anyone thought about how the fact that Dawn came to life messed up a fair bit of the first four seasons. Things happened that we didn't see, so basically almost everything before the Dracula episode was all a lie

Not really.

Part of Dawn's personality is that she's always felt kinda superfluous before S5. In her memories it was always about Buffy, her pretty, popular older sister who turned out to have superpowers on top of everything else.
That's part of the whole reason Dawn acts out so much around Buffy- its to gain attention she feels that she been lacking, because things just 'happen' around her her whole life.

So Dawn's presence didn't really mess up anything, because she didn't effect anything before S5.

I always thought it would be great if we'd gotten to see Dawn interact with Angel or Cordelia, or maybe Faith a bit more, so we could have a better idea of what she thought of them 'before' she came to be (and vice versa).

Would she have liked Cordelia because she 'stood up to' her sister?
Would she have thought Faith was 'the cool slayer' before she went evil?
Would she have liked Angel's hair as much as she liked Spike's?
All important questions I feel. 😎