Religion. You think I'd bloody know better.

[eponinethen]

This is the problem I've encountered with the board, and actually with the entire world. I say A, you read half of A and assume B is what I said.

I didn't say you have to believe in anything illogical to be religious. I'm not criticizing people who take everything literally. To understand what I said, you would've had to read the two posts above it in order to get the context which you obviously didn't.

I said the idea of an omnipotent, omnibenevolent, omniscient god is illogical. Why? Because it contains a contradiction. It's a paradox. It's inherently flawed. Incomplete. Do I need to go on?

I'm open to criticism. Hell, I'm open to downright attacks against my points. I'm open to all opinions which differ with mine, but if you want to voice yours, at least have the decency of truly reading what I write here.

I actually did read everything you wrote. Maybe you misunderstand me, I'm not great at expressing my thoughts in English.. I'm not even trying to criticise you (although it seem like you want me to), I just think this is an interesting thing to talk about..

But it's not like that is all you said, the thing about an omnipotent god. You also wrote "I consider religious institutions medieval relics and find them to be one of the evils of the world. Religion on the other hand, while one is taught to respect all of them, I find absurd." That doesn't really sound like "I respect all religions and the people that have faith in them." But okay, I understood you wrong..? You don't think that there's anything illogical about god or religions?

 

[Jill_Valentine]

Lorne, while I do actually agree with a lot of your views, telling people to stop believing is just like telling Athiests that Christianity is the one true faith. I'd be a hippocrite if I let it pass without expressing some discomfort with the confrontative language used.

 

[Mr. Pointy]

What Jill said above. I'd like to think that we could have a reasoned debate about religion without it getting confrontational. I think the board has had enough of that over the last couple of weeks...can we have some respect for other people's views please, especially when some guys don't have English as their first language...

 

[SlayerThe]

Did you even read the entire thing I wrote or just found the words "stop believing in it" and assumed the wrong thing?

Don't want to sound extremely rude, but did you even understand what I wrote? Do you know what a paradox is?

I just made clear that the concept of a omnipotent, omniscient and perfectly good god contains an inherent paradox demonstrated by the existence of evil in the world. As simple as that. I didn't say don't believe in god. I said don't believe in an omnipotent, omniscient and perfectly good god. Reason it, and find what you want to believe in.

The fact that you have free will to decide to believe something ilogical and self-contradictory does not make the belief logical. Example: You are free to be stupid. The fact that you decide to exercise your freedom by choosing to be stupid does not make you any less stupid. Important Note: Before all of you take that as an offense. It wasn't. It was an example.

I actually did read the whole post, so why do you obviously assume that I didn't.

And if religion teaches you anything, God has no boundaries, whether it be science or not. And how does an 'omnipotent, omniscient and perfectly good god' defy the laws of this world, or therefore create a paradox?

A paradox is defined as "an argument that apparently derives self-contradictory conclusions by valid deduction from acceptable premises" http://www.m-w.com

But in Christianity, you are taught that everyone has free will. Thus certain people are capable of becoming evil, because they simply want to. Nowhere does it say that they were made to be evil. FREE WILL, ever heard of it? And there can be a 'perfectly good God'. Because of the aforementioned. And just because I and so many others believe there is.

And don't tell people what to believe, you sound like a dictator addressing his constituents.

Personally, you seem to be an aggressive atheist to me. I don't think you want me to tell you that you can't believe in the non-existance of a superior being. Or that there simply isn't. Everyone is entitled to their own opinions and thoughts. You have no control over this.

Its so ironic that the religion who claims to be suppressed by Christianity is ofting telling other Christians that they are morons for their faith. Well ya know what, anyone who tells anyone else that their stupid because of their faith, is the truly stupid and childish one.

What kind of world are we living in when people openly and bluntly deny another's beliefs? Grow up.

 

[Mr. Pointy]

Like I was trying to say above - Play nice people otherwise nasty ol' irreligious Pointy is going to close it down...in a totally nice non-fascist way...but closed is still closed...

 

[Willow Rosenberg]

I think we all need to remember that respect and tolerance of the beliefs of others need to be adhered to throughout this discussion. No one should be telling anyone their religion is "stupid" or not the "true religion". I'm not pointing fingers at anyone, just posting this as a friendly reminder as we continue our discussion 😀

 

[Eowyn]

Im a Wiccan (or use to be). I have an little "break" though since personally, Im a mess, and I need to figure out myself before I jump into anything that even smells like religion. So Im actually just a non religious person right now but I'd like to think myself as a Wiccan... 🙂

(I hope any of that made sense)

 

[Smitten]

I have never been a religious person, and im not now. I just think that people should believe in what they want to give their life meaning which I guess can come through religion. I just dont like when people force a religion on people, or tell people they are going to burn in hell because they arent that regilion...

 

[KarrinMurphy]

I would never try to sell you anything in regards to religion but if what you were saying is share your faith, I can do that. I was born into a family were my mother avowed that she was Jewish and my father claimed to be an agnostic. Despite their lack of a relationship to God, I was sent to an Orthodox Yeshiva, probably because they thought the education available there was the best to be had where we lived. As a child I followed Jewish customs, prayers, and rituals, but always had a seperate internal prayer life that I never shared with anyone but God. When I got to middle school it was to a public school that preached secular humanism and I bought it hook, line, and sinker though that internal part where I had communed with God kind of knew better. At the age of 30 I went on a trip to Isreal and picked up a copy of the New Testament as a souviener. I read it for the first time. Tumblers clicked. I felt that I was reading the second half of a story and it was a very odd sensation. My guess was that if what I was reading was even remotely true then I was in a pile of trouble. There was no one I could turn to to help me. So at some point I got down on my knees, spoke to a God of whom I was unsure was there, told God my situation and that if this was all true I needed a saviour and also a bit of confirmation because my family would probably disown me if I became a Christian. He did confirm it to me (that part is really private) and here I am years later , a Christian and not ashamed of it :bounce:

 

[Lorne The Host]

Personally, you seem to be an aggressive atheist to me. I don't think you want me to tell you that you can't believe in the non-existance of a superior being. Or that there simply isn't. Everyone is entitled to their own opinions and thoughts. You have no control over this.

Proof that even if you are reading my posts, you are not understanding them.

Had you read my first post in this topic, you'd realized I'm not an aggressive atheist. For lack of a better word, I would be an agnostic.

I'm not even going to refute your arguments regarding the paradox thing, it would completely destroy this thread and while bother arguing with someone who thinks the problem of evil isn't a problem just because one believes in a perfectly good god and has free will. That happens to be the entire paradox. A considerable number of theologists have given their view on this. In fact, quite a number of religious branches like Maltheism are derived from that paradox. There's actually something called Theodicy which is the study of the paradox of evil and the OOO god.


And Jill and Mr. Pointy, I would become a hypocrite if I didn't voice my opinion on matters like this. I'm actually very interested in them. If you truly believe everyone is entitled to his or her opinion, then you should accept that my opinion is the one mentioned above and that my opinion is that I shouldn't water down or put disclaimers before every posts. Things are only offensive for the reader, try to be more open and you'll find that nothing that I've posted here can be considered offensive.

And regarding the whole "stop believing", the way I see it, it's the exact same thing as telling someone "stop thinking the earth is flat". The earth being flat was a mistake in perception. The god I described is the same.

 

[Jenny]

And Jill and Mr. Pointy, I would become a hypocrite if I didn't voice my opinion on matters like this. I'm actually very interested in them. If you truly believe everyone is entitled to his or her opinion, then you should accept that my opinion is the one mentioned above and that my opinion is that I shouldn't water down or put disclaimers before every posts. Things are only offensive for the reader, try to be more open and you'll find that nothing that I've posted here can be considered offensive.

Nothing wrong with stating an opinion, but we ask that everyone do it without attacking other members. Notice I said everyone...as in this is directed at everyone, I'm not singling you out Lorne The Host.
🙂

 

[nerd4hire]

Is anyone else watching the post count on this thread, and counting off to a 100? 😉

 

[Faith]

A phrase comes to mind that I was told alot when I was younger and that is 'Its not what you say, its how you say it.'

It is understandable that people are going to have very different views on this matter and are passionate about them, all we ask is that you treat each member with the respect you like to be shown and not have things drawn down to a slagging match.

This tends to get forgotten at times when the subject tends to be religion and politics, my tip never discuss them in a pub because it gets much worse!

And before I get jumped on, i'm not claiming this is a slagging match, I was merely stating a point.

 

[eponinethen]

The thing with religion.. It's fun to discuss cause you can't get anywhere.. I mean you can't win the arguement. And you can't say "God exists" or "God doesn't exist" (although people try to say that all the time).. Since noone can really understand what another person believes, it's different for everyone, and you can never tell someone they're wrong unless you really understand what they feel/think/believe.. This bugs me, I love to discuss these things, but I'm arguing against myself all the time, since I don't have a real oppinion it comes to this.. I just know what I don't believe in and that I can see this from so many views..

 

[Willow Rosenberg]

See when it comes down to it, no one can prove a damn thing in regards to religion. Religion isn't based on proof like "my religion is the true religion because..." Statements like that don't fall into what religion is really about. Religion is believing in something so much and with your entire being that proof isn't even necessary to the individual. It's a very personal thing and since we are all individuals the idea of organized religion to separate ourselves into, just doesn't make sense to me.

 

[eponinethen]

About two years ago I used to refer to myself as a christian, only because I thought Jesus was a great person and that christianity has some things that is great about it.. (I didn't go to church, or pray or anything. I just thougth that "Jesus is Christ so I am allowed to call myself a christian..")
So at my school we had this teacher for a while who was really religious (I had never really met anyone who was before). She asked me how I could be a christian when I'm using a lot of swearwords. I told her that I wasn't really a christian I just liked what Jesus had to say. She told me that if I'm saying things like that I will go to hell. And that everytime a say any name that has anything to do with the devil, he's coming to me. And that the devil is about to make me evil because of this. So basicly she told me that everyday I get more and more evil and I will go to hell because of it and..
I was really shocked, I had never heard anyone say something like this.. I mean is a teacher even allowed to tell a student this..?
(Fortunately she isn't at my school anymore..)

 

[Faith]

To me that just comes across as all wrong. For a start she should not be using her position as a teacher like that. My aunt is like that, and it frustrates me so much. So when i'm around her I will purposely wind her up. It is not their place to say what kind of person you are and what you will become.

 

[eponinethen]

I don't know anyone else who is like that.. All religious people I know are much more free and open and don't care about the rules..
There are so many different ways in which you can believe.. Just because like parts of a religion doesn't mean you have to accept everything about it.
Like this teacher, she continued telling me homosexuality and sex before marriage is wrong (she's 40 and still a virgin).. and a lot of things like that..

 

[Faith]

In the end it all comes down to what works for you, if your happy in your faith then thats all that matters. There is good and bad everywhere and in everyone so you are never going to get an even balance.

 

[eponinethen]

Of course (there's no point even trying to define or explain the good/evil thing)..

I am just surprised that people can be so dumb.. Like trying to tell someone else what to believe (I've just never understood the thing about doing that)..