Religion

[JCC]

I find it interesting that you immediately presume that something we don't know of yet is probably God. You find a gap, nobody knows what to fill the gap with, you fill it with God. Since the beginning of time, when people don't know how to explain something, they immediately say that it's of a supernatural cause, God did it, a ghost did it, this did it, that did it. If I were to tell you that the Flying Spaghetti Monster created the universe and he lives in the sea BUT he is formless, you would have no more evidence for the God that you believe in than for the Flying Spaghetti Monster, however you know that the possibility of the Flying Spaghetti Monster creating the universe and living formlessly in the sea is so small that you may as well not even take it into account.

What makes you think that your God is correct and others are false?

 

[TabulaRasa]

You discuss creating a heavy rock, first tell me how any matter is created. If it is in fact created that would be evidence for a creator. In other words you can't discuss creating something unless you accept a creator.

You know you're one of my favorite people right? YAY. well anyways, rocks were created, but not by a supernatural creator or a God. Do you ever watch science shows? Just watch something like..."how the earth was made," or "If we had no moon." I think you will find these quite informative.

 

[InsaneMystic]

Plus, if he were omniscient, you're not living out your life, you're living out a preordained set of formulae. You're not a life at all, you're an automaton, a robot, a puppet.

Honestly, I've got to re-read the first part of your post a couple of times, not sure I'm getting it yet... ^^ but as to the part I quoted: yes, this is absolutely what I conceive myself to be, God's puppet... or, as I prefer to say, an actor playing my role on stage strictly from the script God has written. I do not believe in such as thing as free will.

 

[JCC]

Honestly, I've got to re-read the first part of your post a couple of times, not sure I'm getting it yet... ^^ but as to the part I quoted: yes, this is absolutely what I conceive myself to be, God's puppet... or, as I prefer to say, an actor playing my role on stage strictly from the script God has written. I do not believe in such as thing as free will.

... Wow. That's a pretty depressing life philosophy, to believe that you're just a meaty vessel for someone else.

 

[TabulaRasa]

I could never believe I was a puppet to some higher power. I control everything that happens in my life. Each step I take in my life has a reaction. So, it's up to me to take those steps and after I do, whatever comes from them, even 20 years down the road, happened because of those first steps.
Now I totally just rambled on, but I think you get me.

 

[The Chosen]

All of this is making me wonder if we even control ourselves at all? I believe that I control myself, because I don't believe that my brain or something higher up is TELLING me to type this.

If that's what you guys are talking about in a way.

 

[TabulaRasa]

All of this is making me wonder if we even control ourselves at all? I believe that I control myself, because I don't believe that my brain or something higher up is TELLING me to type this.

If that's what you guys are talking about in a way.

Kind of. But in a larger sense. But you pretty much got it. Every decision you make everyday is up to you. You make that choice. No one else. That's my take on it.

 

[InsaneMystic]

... Wow. That's a pretty depressing life philosophy, to believe that you're just a meaty vessel for someone else.

Funny you should say that, as I see it totally the opposite way around... if I didn't see myself as the "meaty vessel" of someone with a Higher Agenda, someone whom I love and trust totally, I'd really consider my life totally pointless. Now, that would be depressing.

I'd prefer a sense of meaning in my life over the feeling of control any old day, even though either might just be an illusion.

(BTW, anyone else feel very reminded of the Jasmine arc in late Angel S4 at the moment?)

 

[JCC]

Funny you should say that, as I see it totally the opposite way around... if I didn't see myself as the "meaty vessel" of someone with a Higher Agenda, someone whom I love and trust totally, I'd really consider my life totally pointless. Now, that would be depressing.

I'd prefer a sense of meaning in my life over the feeling of control any old day, even though either might just be an illusion.

(BTW, anyone else feel very reminded of the Jasmine arc in late Angel S4 at the moment?)

But if you were acting out a script you'd not be anybody. You wouldn't be a person, we wouldn't be people, we'd be like a simulation, a program running processes that have been predetermined. It would make all of our lives pointless. To strive for things, feel things, want things, would all be null. What life is that?

 

[RogueHunter]

I find it interesting that you immediately presume that something we don't know of yet is probably God. You find a gap, nobody knows what to fill the gap with, you fill it with God. Since the beginning of time, when people don't know how to explain something, they immediately say that it's of a supernatural cause, God did it, a ghost did it, this did it, that did it. If I were to tell you that the Flying Spaghetti Monster created the universe and he lives in the sea BUT he is formless, you would have no more evidence for the God that you believe in than for the Flying Spaghetti Monster, however you know that the possibility of the Flying Spaghetti Monster creating the universe and living formlessly in the sea is so small that you may as well not even take it into account.

What makes you think that your God is correct and others are false?

Actually I've never said what has created the universe, I never said anything did create the universe.
I understand how heat and pressure form various compounds that we refer to as geological mass, but we don't know where the actual matter comes from.
The molecules, atoms and subatomic particles that make up the universe may have come from somewhere or they might have always been.
I couldn't care less about religion itself, since its an individual choice and religious people are no closer to knowing those ultimate truths than the non religious. My point is that we acknowledge that certainty will always be beyond our grasp. If there is a god we would be no more able to understand anything about him than we can understand the dark matter and dark energy.
To say anything with certainty is naive.

 

[InsaneMystic]

But if you were acting out a script you'd not be anybody. You wouldn't be a person, we wouldn't be people, we'd be like a simulation, a program running processes that have been predetermined. It would make all of our lives pointless. To strive for things, feel things, want things, would all be null. What life is that?

Guess it depends on what you consider to be "a point". Actually, I don't see any point per se in being a person.

As for the strive/feel/want thing... well, that's what I meant in my earlier post above - conversion of knowledge into experience. That is, IMO, a point, a purpose, a meaning. Fulfilling my job as a subroutine in the big program, having been written into it for a reason, namely, to be a part of said conversion.

Basically, we can't ever "know" whether we are persons or not... even Descartes' "I think therefore I am" is one step too many, if you see it in the strictest solipsistic terms, as I can never be sure that the thoughts occuring are really "mine" or projected by someone/something else. So whether or not you believe you are a person depends, basically, on what belief makes you more comfortable and seems more intuitively credible to you.

To me, the existence of God is more intuitive than the existence of the world (including my physical body), and "puppet on a string" is more comfortable than "person with free will". In the absence of any hope ever during my lifetime finding out whither (if, indeed, either) is "the truth", that's pretty much the most valid reasons you can come up with. :wink:

 

[Schillaci]

I would love to get inot this topic, but that would mean having to read all your posts, and by the time it came for me to post, it would just be one long paragraph of expletives. In fact, I'd probably just get banned for joining in the conversation...

I have to input something though, so here it is:

Religion is very clever.
belief in god is not.
Free will is not what most people percieve it to be.

This is kinda off topic, but anyone see the Passion of the Christ?

Was that one holy smackdown or what? lol
Was I the only one that was cheering..? AND NO I'm not Jewish, you racist. I just enjoy a brutal smackdown.

 

[randiann]

But if you were acting out a script you'd not be anybody. You wouldn't be a person, we wouldn't be people, we'd be like a simulation, a program running processes that have been predetermined. It would make all of our lives pointless. To strive for things, feel things, want things, would all be null. What life is that?

Perhaps part of the script involves feeling, wanting and striving for our goals in life. It's just that someone already knows whether or not we will succeed in obtaining our goals. Therefore it isn't pointless, it's part of life.

I'd rather believe in something and be wrong than not believe in it and be wrong any day of the week.

 

[Blondie Bear]

I freely admit I know nothing; I'm in a struggle with my beliefs as it is. But I think that (assuming God doesn't exist) we have this need to know that we're doing something when there's nothing left we can do (hence prayer), and that what we're doing means something. Or God could exist and praying does mean we're doing something and that we mean something. I really don't know. I do know that I intellectually decided that I'd given up on God, but I still catch myself praying about my job hunt and my husband's. Could be habit, could be something deeper. I don't know.

 

[T.I.P]

Dont know what, but some thing (*god*) i think must have created everything.

How can everything appear out of nothing??
But also how can (*god*) have been around forever?

Both seem impossible. I dont think we were meant to know. How can we?

 

[Schillaci]

Dont know what, but some thing (*god*) i think must have created everything.

How can everything appear out of nothing??
But also how can (*god*) have been around forever?

Both seem impossible. I dont think we were meant to know. How can we?

Don't you see the irony in your questions?

I'm going to do a little wordplay thing I love to do. If you read this post and have the mental energy, then try to step into the thought process, if you're on this site, there's a good chance you don't have much better to do( that's not me trying to be offensive, I'm here too).

So ok, here's where we will start. First of all lets rearrange the words in your two main questions.

Q1 - How can nothing appear out of everything?
Q2 - How can forever have been around without god?

Next we will rearrange both questions together.

Q1 - How can god appear out of nothing?
Q2 - How can everything have been around forever?


If you've jumped on this gravy train, then your thoughts, depending on the type of person you are, will take you in several different directions. Thats ok.

We got one more stop to go, the end of the line.

Q1 - How can nothing have been around forever?
Q2 - The last question is up to anyone who wants to hazard a guess at what it should be. There is more than one question(3), but it is not wordplay that should have gotten you to the final question, it is the thought journey the previous questions took you on.

 

[InsaneMystic]

I dont think we were meant to know. How can we?

We can't. Actually, we really cannot (and thus, by implication "weren't meant to") know pretty much anything.

"Thinking exists" is the only premise you can't doubt/refute - (even Descartes' "I think therefore I am" is doubtable, as there's no proof that "I" create the thoughts "in my head") and, at least the way I understand the word, where there's doubt, there isn't knowledge, but "merely" faith/conviction.

So "Thinking exists" is the full extent of human knowledge and will forever remain so, unless something drastically changes humanity into no longer being bound to subjective experience, but "waking up" to objectivity... I have no idea how that should work, barring some kind of "magic"... or even whether it would make any sense calling such a hypothetical objective creature "human".

 

[TabulaRasa]

Ok so I am back to say...I am contradicting myself, lol. I want to say I am athiest but truth is, I can't be. I am struggling everyday trying to figure it all out. Figure out how I feel. I want to say I believe in God because I do think of Him in every aspect of my life, and I thank Him for so much that happens as well. But I don't believe in any organized religion and don't believe in the church...yeah same thing...but I dunno. I mean, I can't see God, touch Him or anything, but I can't say that I don't truly 'believe.' If I ever figure it out I will come back here and let y'all know.

 

[Schillaci]

No takers then? Why do I even bother.

 

[The Ferg]

My opinion on religion in general:
It's stupid. If it wasn't for religion half of the bad things that have happened in the history of this world were done in the "name" of religion. See: The holocaust (sp?) and The Crusades. To me it would be MUCH simpler if everyone would just embrace science. Ok, logically thinking, how could one being create... everything. To me, it's ridiculous. Also, how could Adam and Eve make billions of people. That doesn't make sense at all to me. (and dont even get me started on Muslims)

Maybe I'm being a little harsh, but I think people like me need to be harsh. This is why people still believe in bronze age myths, because people like me don't speak up enough. And the reason why we don't speak up is because we're scared. I also don't understand why people think other people that don't believe in a god are automatically evil. If I was asked about religion in 2006 I would probably say something like, "What! You don't believe in god?!?!?!?" But over the last couple of years, I've thought and thought, and I've deduced that there is no possible way that god could exist.

I could go on for literally pages and pages, but... I don't want to. 🙂