Removing the Chip - Right/Wrong?

[fly on the wall]

I don't know.

I'm honestly torn on this.

On the one hand...was the chip functioning correctly when The First was using Spike to kill people? And, if it wasn't, would a new chip have kept him from being controlled that way?

I don't think Buffy was considering the safety of the Potentials, or anyone else really, when she made the decision to get rid of the chip. She was thinking only of Spike. And that's valid, because it was about Spike...but it should also have been about keeping the Potentials safe. Spike may have been her best warrior, but without the Potentials, the First has won. I think Giles, with all of his reservations about Spike, was made to look like the horrible guy who wanted the noble warrior muzzled, when in fact he had some really valid concerns.

So all in all, I'm not sure what was the "right" decision. I go back and forth about it.

 

[hazzard]

i hate the way giles acted about the whole situation. i love giles, and this really made me hate him for a while. i understood where he was coming from, but i think he should have talked to buffy, a conversation between two adults. i can't stand the fact that he stalled her in the cemetery, pretending he was teaching her a lesson about sacrifice for the greater good (although it made for a great episode). i think buffy had learned enough about self-sacrifice from angel and all the other things that had happened to her. people liked to say buffy's judgment was clouded when it came to spike--i suppose it was once when it came to the violent affair haha, but otherwise i don't think it was. i think buffy was totally right in removing the chip--it proved once and for all for everyone that spike was on their side and had atoned sincerely for his...transgressions.

 

[Silum]

Spike may have been her best warrior, but without the Potentials, the First has won.=

Well realistically how was Spike going to rid the world of 2000 potentials scattered throughout the entire world.

Yes, Buffy didnt know about the extent of the slayer line. But the first did. So clearly the the firsts plans for spike were, imo nothing more than to drive a wedge between Buffy and friends. Spike was pretty much useless for the first (sure he could have killed the 30 or so potentials who ultimately did nothing in the final battle) but by the first making a simple comment "Its not time for him yet" ...it managed to make Giles completely turn on his slayer and try to kill an ally with a soul behind her back... leading to total crapness as documented in Empty Spaces.

Everyone turned on Buffy because they were so easily manipulated by their own goals and I believe Buffy was the ONLY one to see the big picture despite everyone else justifying their actions as acting for the big picture. (Giles in this case was less about his 'goals' and more about his ego being firmly put in its place)

 

[Revolver]

In regards to Giles, even though I disagree with the decision he made, it does not make me hate his character. Giles has always been a "greater good" kind of guy. However, I dislike they put this huge rift between him and Buffy right before the end of the series and never really rectified it. In most respects, I'm pretty satisfied with how they ended Buffy. The last episode reinforced the message of the series, most of our beloved heroes lived (okay, Anya didn't make it but her death was kind of fitting so it didn't bother me) and it was an enjoyable ride. But it never felt right to me for them to end the show without some kind of healing between Giles and Buffy. The sort of father/daughter relationship they had was a big part of the series for awhile and to have Giles betray her, after her biological father pretty much abandons her just doesn't sit well with me. I'm all for pro-female messages, but this seemed anti-male almost and I don't care for that.

 

[Silum]

In regards to Giles, even though I disagree with the decision he made, it does not make me hate his character. Giles has always been a "greater good" kind of guy. However, I dislike they put this huge rift between him and Buffy right before the end of the series and never really rectified it. In most respects, I'm pretty satisfied with how they ended Buffy. The last episode reinforced the message of the series, most of our beloved heroes lived (okay, Anya didn't make it but her death was kind of fitting so it didn't bother me) and it was an enjoyable ride. But it never felt right to me for them to end the show without some kind of healing between Giles and Buffy. The sort of father/daughter relationship they had was a big part of the series for awhile and to have Giles betray her, after her biological father pretty much abandons her just doesn't sit well with me. I'm all for pro-female messages, but this seemed anti-male almost and I don't care for that.

to be honest i saw it coming. S1-3 it was father/daughter, S4 it was wierd uncle, S5 it was estranged uncle, S6 it was suger daddy followed by abondment, S7 was just abandonment.

 

[sk]

I think it was the right thing to do.

The chip wasn't necessary anymore. Spike was a completely different person and Buffy knew it.
I have complete confident for Buffy on these things 🙂 (I just which that Giles had it to)

Don't even think it matters that much if the First still had controll of Spike.
I don't really believe it, but if the chip would have stopped Spike while being controlled by the first it would just use someone/something else. At least they knew about Spike.

/SK

 

[AgentX7k]

It was right of her to remove the chip. The chip clearly didn't stop The First from controlling Spike which would be the only legitimate reason to put a new one in Spike's head

We don't that for a fact, that's what I'm saying. My only issue with the whole thing is the trigger, of course I think it would be pointless and wrong to chip a souled Spike, he poses no more threat than any other member of the gang.

But as I said the chip almost explodes a few episodes after he starts being able to hurt humans, which leads me to believe it had been malfunctioning for a while, a new chip would have fixed this problem, at least until they get rid of the trigger, then they could just easily call up the military again and have it removed.

 

[fly on the wall]

Well realistically how was Spike going to rid the world of 2000 potentials scattered throughout the entire world.

Yes, Buffy didnt know about the extent of the slayer line. But the first did. So clearly the the firsts plans for spike were, imo nothing more than to drive a wedge between Buffy and friends. Spike was pretty much useless for the first (sure he could have killed the 30 or so potentials who ultimately did nothing in the final battle) but by the first making a simple comment "Its not time for him yet" ...it managed to make Giles completely turn on his slayer and try to kill an ally with a soul behind her back... leading to total crapness as documented in Empty Spaces.

Everyone turned on Buffy because they were so easily manipulated by their own goals and I believe Buffy was the ONLY one to see the big picture despite everyone else justifying their actions as acting for the big picture. (Giles in this case was less about his 'goals' and more about his ego being firmly put in its place)

Right, Spike probably couldn't have killed 2000 or so Potentials, but he could have killed the few that they knew of, the ones taking up residence in Buffy's house. And then how would they locate the rest of the Potentials before the First did? How would they protect the Potentials they were unaware of before the First got to them? Harboring an uncontrolled serial killer whose anti-murder chip is probably malfunctioning in a house with the only KNOWN hope the world has left is NOT a smart idea.

I'm not saying Spike hadn't earned a right to be chip-less of his own accord. I'm not calling his character into question, I'm not saying that he needed both a soul AND a chip. But until they worked out that trigger, and knew that Spike could no longer be controlled by the First, I'm not so sure that NOT fixing the chip was the right way to go. Yes, it was total crap that Giles went behind Buffy's back. But I agree with his intentions, and I think, had he told Buffy what he wanted to do, she would have gone to the end of the earth to stop him. And I don't know, maybe she should have. But I do think Giles was seeing the 'big picture'...that being, protect the army you've got, by any means necessary.

Again, I don't know who was "right" here. I can definitely see and sympathize with both points of view.

 

[hazzard]

i thought that the trigger was overriding the chip? i thought that, regardless of whether or not the chip was malfunctioning, it didn't stop spike from killing humans when he was under the influence of the trigger. so...would it have mattered if they'd gotten the chip replaced if the trigger could override it anyway?

 

[Randy Giles]

He had a soul. Technically he could still easily kill people...humans do it ALL the time. However, he has a conscious and isn't gonna be the heartless killing machine a typical vampire is. And I think it's wrong to have a chip to control someone PLUS it was killing him so if Buffy wants to help him out by removing it, she has every damn right to do so without talking to her friends. It's none of their concern, in my opinion.

Wow, the Scooby Gang were a bunch of douchebags.

 

[AgentX7k]

i thought that the trigger was overriding the chip? i thought that, regardless of whether or not the chip was malfunctioning, it didn't stop spike from killing humans when he was under the influence of the trigger. so...would it have mattered if they'd gotten the chip replaced if the trigger could override it anyway?

Perhaps, perhaps not. That, to me, is the only thing that makes this an actual debate. The whole soul thing seems irrelevant to me because of course it would wrong and pointless to keep the chip if Spike had a soul, technically Angel is a bigger threat since pure happiness can turn him into Angelus, Spike's soul is a keeper.

But we don't know exactly why he could kill, someone once suggested that perhaps the trigger didn't override the chip, it overrides the pain. I originally thought that the reason Spikes chip works was because he could sense what was human and what wasn't (something we see vampires do often). That way he could kill under The First influence because he was 'out of his mind' and since his mind wasn't really there the chip never activated. But according to 'Family' the chip seems to operate independent so that leads me back to 'maybe it wasn't working because it almost exploded'.

if Buffy wants to help him out by removing it, she has every damn right to do so without talking to her friends. It's none of their concern, in my opinion. Wow, the Scooby Gang were a bunch of douchebags.

I think it's their concern since their lives were in danger as a result. He could go off in a second without warning, The First could appear to him and him only, meaning they wouldn't know he was about to snap. There can be zero warning signs.

 

[fly on the wall]

He had a soul. Technically he could still easily kill people...humans do it ALL the time. However, he has a conscious and isn't gonna be the heartless killing machine a typical vampire is. And I think it's wrong to have a chip to control someone PLUS it was killing him so if Buffy wants to help him out by removing it, she has every damn right to do so without talking to her friends. It's none of their concern, in my opinion.

Wow, the Scooby Gang were a bunch of douchebags.

As AgentX7k said...none of their concern?
Their lives, and the safety of their cause, aren't their concerns?
This concerned EVERYONE that came into contact with Spike. While I don't think it would have been reasonable for Buffy to sit down everyone, the Potentials included, and have a vote on what to do (since obviously, not knowing Spike and knowing he's killing, they'd vote to keep the chip), I DO think that Buffy didn't have the right to make this decision without consulting anyone. She's not Spike's mother. She doesn't have the best judgment when it comes to him. The Scoobies' concern certainly doesn't mean that they were "a bunch of douchebags." ???

Whether or not the chip was working properly while Spike was under the control of the First is the problem here, I think. I like the theory that it wasn't working while he was doing the actual killing, but then it sort of "caught up" and his head exploded with pain days later. We don't KNOW if the chip was working when Spike was being triggered. But personally, I suspect it wasn't. Murdering humans would definitely leave Spike with a killer headache for hours, maybe even days, afterwards. And Spike would recall this headache. He'd be puzzled by it. He might have mentioned it to Buffy. When confronted by Buffy about killing people, he'd mention the headaches. But Spike was completely unaware he was under control of the First, which makes me think the chip wasn't working....whether that was because of natural corrosion, or because the First could somehow "turn off" the chip, I don't know.

 

[cryptwarmer]

Interesting discussion, I can't resist jumping in...even if I'm a bit late to the game.

I think Buffy did the right thing, here's why.
Repeatedly in the series, the theme of "control" comes up...Oz being out of control when the moon is full, Willow's uncontrolled use of magic, Glory sucking out the minds of people, Willow messing with Tara and her other friends memories to control their reactions, that she is uncomfortable with.

So Buffy's decision over Spike's chip is not an independent event, it is an opportunity to address all these various ways that people are controlled by others and powers beyond them. When she decides to have the chip removed and NOT replaced, she is making a statement based on all the events that have come before, not just on Spike, but on the issue of control and choice itself. And the message her decision gives is that she believes in choice, and people's right to decide for themselves how they will behave, and confirms her belief that people can choose good, even when it's hard.

She believes in fighting evil when it rears it's head, but not in taking away everyone's choice to participate in it. She doesn't seek to magically control everyone, but rather to encourage everyone to be the best they can be, to make just decisions and to work together toward improving the human condition, through choice and effort.

I think that is an important underlying message, and one of the reasons the show speaks deeply to us. We are not fighting demons in corporeal form, but each day we feel confronted by evil. We don't have magic at our disposal, but we must go out and fight with our own effort, and by the choices we make. The message of the show is, "yeah, it's hard, and they never stop coming, but I have faith in you, do the right thing, make the right choice."

Over and over in BTVS we see people rise above their baser natures...willow, anya, Spike, Dawn...and they do it because someone is willing to forgive them and encourage them and believe that they are worth taking a chance on. If Buffy had decided to have Spike rechipped, I think it would have given the show a sour taste, it would have been an affront to many viewers who identify with Spike on various levels...it would have robbed them of hope that they can be better than they have been. It would have been subconcious perhaps, this reaction, but I think it would have been powerful.

It would have been Buffy doing as Willow did to Tara...yeah, I love you, yeah, you've proven yourself, but I'm going to control you, it's just easier...And we need Buffy to NOT take that road. We need her to do the hard but just thing, we need to know that someone out there is willing to risk security for righteousness, because we need to believe in our own lives, that we are capable of greatness.

So I think the chip issue is way beyond what was "safe" as far as the story line goes, and important in the whole scheme of the show's overall message. Had she decided to rechip Spike, she wouldn't be the hero we need her to be.

 

[Don]

I think Buffy removing Spike's chip is no more/just as reckless as sending Angel the gem of amarra. If spike ever lost his soul and was back to the big bad, he'd go on killing people just as much as he always did, and history shows that he's a tough vamp to slay. Similarly, if Angel ever lost his soul again, the gem of amarra would ensure that he could never be slain.

The interesting part about all this is that, where Giles flipped out about Buffy removing Spike's chip, he didn't seem to have any qualms with Buffy sending Angel the gem. I feel like, since Angelus was kind of a jerk to Giles, what with torturing him and killing calendar and all, he'd have been a lot more upset about the gem than Spike losing the chip. I must admit, I haven't seen Angel (we'll be watching that once I get back to school in a few weeks) so I don't know whether or not he chose to actually wear it, but that really isn't the point. Buffy chose to make Angel invincible and Giles didn't care, but he had a huge problem with a reformed vamp losing his chip.

 

[LadyLavinia]

I think it was wrong to have that chip in Spike's head even when he didn't have a soul.

It was wrong and immoral. At least to me.

The problem with people is that they tend to value safety (which barely exists anyway) over free will.

 

[AgentX7k]

I think Buffy removing Spike's chip is no more/just as reckless as sending Angel the gem of amarra. If spike ever lost his soul and was back to the big bad, he'd go on killing people just as much as he always did, and history shows that he's a tough vamp to slay

I'm not sure it's as bad because there's a far bigger risk that Spike could be turned as oppose to Angel. I mean Angel's trigger is pure happiness, Spikes is a song sung by an invisible ghost that's everywhere.

The interesting part about all this is that, where Giles flipped out about Buffy removing Spike's chip, he didn't seem to have any qualms with Buffy sending Angel the gem.

I guess he should have been peeved, he may have been but kept it to himself since Angel is out of their hair and there'd be no point arguing with her, he did seemed concerned but it stopped there. With the Spike decision they were in the middle of a war and Spike would be walking around without a leash.

 

[LadyLavinia]

Interesting discussion, I can't resist jumping in...even if I'm a bit late to the game.

I think Buffy did the right thing, here's why.
Repeatedly in the series, the theme of "control" comes up...Oz being out of control when the moon is full, Willow's uncontrolled use of magic, Glory sucking out the minds of people, Willow messing with Tara and her other friends memories to control their reactions, that she is uncomfortable with.

So Buffy's decision over Spike's chip is not an independent event, it is an opportunity to address all these various ways that people are controlled by others and powers beyond them. When she decides to have the chip removed and NOT replaced, she is making a statement based on all the events that have come before, not just on Spike, but on the issue of control and choice itself. And the message her decision gives is that she believes in choice, and people's right to decide for themselves how they will behave, and confirms her belief that people can choose good, even when it's hard.

She believes in fighting evil when it rears it's head, but not in taking away everyone's choice to participate in it. She doesn't seek to magically control everyone, but rather to encourage everyone to be the best they can be, to make just decisions and to work together toward improving the human condition, through choice and effort.

I think that is an important underlying message, and one of the reasons the show speaks deeply to us. We are not fighting demons in corporeal form, but each day we feel confronted by evil. We don't have magic at our disposal, but we must go out and fight with our own effort, and by the choices we make. The message of the show is, "yeah, it's hard, and they never stop coming, but I have faith in you, do the right thing, make the right choice."

Over and over in BTVS we see people rise above their baser natures...willow, anya, Spike, Dawn...and they do it because someone is willing to forgive them and encourage them and believe that they are worth taking a chance on. If Buffy had decided to have Spike rechipped, I think it would have given the show a sour taste, it would have been an affront to many viewers who identify with Spike on various levels...it would have robbed them of hope that they can be better than they have been. It would have been subconcious perhaps, this reaction, but I think it would have been powerful.

It would have been Buffy doing as Willow did to Tara...yeah, I love you, yeah, you've proven yourself, but I'm going to control you, it's just easier...And we need Buffy to NOT take that road. We need her to do the hard but just thing, we need to know that someone out there is willing to risk security for righteousness, because we need to believe in our own lives, that we are capable of greatness.

So I think the chip issue is way beyond what was "safe" as far as the story line goes, and important in the whole scheme of the show's overall message. Had she decided to rechip Spike, she wouldn't be the hero we need her to be.

I heartily agree with this. The above is the reason why I have always had a problem with what the Intiative had done to Spike and other demons.

The chip had not stopped Spike's ability or tendency to do evil, as his alliance with Adam or his actions in "Out of My Mind" had shown. It was Spike's own feelings toward Buffy, Dawn, and Angel, their reactions to him and his feelings toward the world that led him to choose a different path. He made that choice to take a different path. It wasn't the chip.

 

[Don]

I'm not sure it's as bad because there's a far bigger risk that Spike could be turned as oppose to Angel. I mean Angel's trigger is pure happiness, Spikes is a song sung by an invisible ghost that's everywhere.

The interesting part about all this is that, where Giles flipped out about Buffy removing Spike's chip, he didn't seem to have any qualms with Buffy sending Angel the gem.

I guess he should have been peeved, he may have been but kept it to himself since Angel is out of their hair and there'd be no point arguing with her, he did seemed concerned but it stopped there. With the Spike decision they were in the middle of a war and Spike would be walking around without a leash.

Spike didn't have the problem with that song anymore after his fight with Robin, so that doesn't really matter, and why should we rule out Angel ever having pure happiness again. He's immortal, afterall, it's gotta happen sometime.

 

[AgentX7k]

Spike didn't have the problem with that song anymore after his fight with Robin, so that doesn't really matter, and why should we rule out Angel ever having pure happiness again. He's immortal, afterall, it's gotta happen sometime.

But when Buffy made the choice and Giles disproved the trigger was still in tact and they had no way of knowing how to stop it. And I didn't rule out Angel becoming happy, I said it was far less likely than Spike being used as a weapon.

 

[Don]

But when Buffy made the choice and Giles disproved the trigger was still in tact and they had no way of knowing how to stop it. And I didn't rule out Angel becoming happy, I said it was far less likely than Spike being used as a weapon.

ah yes, i had my timeline a bit wonky.