Reparations?

Blondie Bear

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Most definitely not. I know this is going to sound super racist and all, but I hate every form of Affirmative Action. I hate that Native American's get to go to college for free just because we took their land. We live in today. I don't care that your ancestors went through this and that to get where they are. That's life. Survival of the Fittest. I shouldn't have to use my time and money to pay for something that doesn't even affect today's generation.

My family had to immigrate here so they didn't get killed in concentration camps during WWII. I don't get anything from it.

I mean honestly, Spike said it best: "You won. All right? You came in and you killed them and you took their land. That's what conquering nations do. It's what Caesar did, and he's not goin' around saying, "I came, I conquered, I felt really bad about it." The history of the world is not people making friends. You had better weapons, and you massacred them. End of story. "

And I know my post was more about Indians, but I think the same principal applies to Blacks too.
 
U
Uncle Rory
100% agree. All men are created equal - we all have our traumas. Rise above or sink below it's everybody's choice. Not racist at all.
Tueuse de Vampires
Tueuse de Vampires
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Relic
FYI, not all native americans...even those with 100% bloodline go to college for free. Thats an urban myth. Some do, granted...but it's not a reparation made to an entire race.
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randiann
Why shouldn't we (Native Americans) hold the US accountable for treaties they initiated? Hate me all you want, I get PAID to go to college not because I'm a Native American, but because I was smart enough to earn a scholarship. Learn your facts.
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charmingslayer
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Wonder what they'll give the native american? Oh yeah, the wonder land that is the reservation.

I owe them nothing, they owe me nothing and our ancestors aren't around for reparations. I think its a waste of time, much like baseball hearings. Why not tackle real issues that can be fixed like prop 8 and wastefull spending?

If anything, congress needs to pay us all reparations for the crappy job they do at representing all their living constituants, and even then I would not like it....rather just see them do a better job, not bribe me for them arsing things up.
 
Pfft, they've got to be joshing themselves. With the current level of appreciativeness? I mean if ya wanna recompense, build a memorial and that's at the very least. Lets' not give out a MasterCard or promotional codes just because someone's ancestors had to live in a world dealt with prehistoric ideology cards. It's unjust, look through the current/future's generation's eyes, being born into the world where your ancestral background can provide you with a 10% discount.. puhlease.
 
Most definitely not. I know this is going to sound super racist and all, but I hate every form of Affirmative Action. I hate that Native American's get to go to college for free just because we took their land. We live in today. I don't care that your ancestors went through this and that to get where they are. That's life. Survival of the Fittest. I shouldn't have to use my time and money to pay for something that doesn't even affect today's generation.

My family had to immigrate here so they didn't get killed in concentration camps during WWII. I don't get anything from it.

I mean honestly, Spike said it best: "You won. All right? You came in and you killed them and you took their land. That's what conquering nations do. It's what Caesar did, and he's not goin' around saying, "I came, I conquered, I felt really bad about it." The history of the world is not people making friends. You had better weapons, and you massacred them. End of story. "

And I know my post was more about Indians, but I think the same principal applies to Blacks too.

I have to agree.
Racism is still a large factor in society, something that has an effect on these communities BUT no one should be held responsible for the acts of another person.

IF you feel bad that an ancestor of yours had a slave, fair game, if you even feel a need within yourself to make reparations of the sins of your ancestor, again fair game BUT it is not down to you to pay for someone else.
 
A lecturer of mine had a similar debate about Tony Blair apologising in Westminister for the atrocities committed by the British Empire in their history and about Kevin Rudd apologising for the treatment of Aboriginal peoples by the white majority in Australia. His opinion was that it was a whole load of rubbish. They did not commit the crimes, nor were they in office when the crimes were committed. Not only were these apologies worthless they were hollow. They mean nothing.

I have to agree. Making people pay for the sins of their forefathers will do nothing but increase bitterness and resentment.

I mean, should I as an Irish person be able to claim reparations from English people because their country ravaged mine for 800 years?

No. Why? Cuz I wasn't affected by it and they weren't the ones doing the ravaging.

Throwing money at people isn't going to change or take away the pain of the past.
 
Are you serious? I understand how HORRIBLE it was for these African Americans, but that was a century and a half ago. And, okay, repercussions pretty much are still around today, but the government shouldn't PAY compensation because they feel bad. Does giving money to them justify what was done? No. It's kind of equivalent to paying them off. "Sorry we treated you like shit for a few hundred years. But in consolation, here's some money to tie you over. Despite the fact that it's been abolished for a century and a half, and we're just doing this now because there's one of you in office as president." Okay, so the last part was a bit snippy, but really?

No. I am not going to pay for the actions of something I had absolutely NO control over. You want reparations? Raise the freakin dead.

And if I sound kind of.. rude.. I'm sorry.
 
H
Harley
I don't think the Presidents color has anything to do with it.
In addition, affirmative action really doesn't help solve racial issues. Basically, it ensures that people will further not be treated as equals.

Exactly. On a small scale it might be succesful unto a certain extent, but nationwide it will only have the opposite effect. It's horrible what has been going on in the US (and most probably still is going on, I wouldn't know) on the racism front and everything, and with the Native Americans, too, but this idea is just naive. If all the people who feel guilty about the past just gather up and go and do some good deeds, like helping on schools with mainly black children, or setting up some youth center, that will help to do something about the stratification. Not giving half of the population some money. It seems a bit easy, like, Oh I feel sorry, go buy an extra meal, kthxbai. It's a very crappy way to show your sorry, really.

And say they are going to give money. How much would you give, and to whom? I understand that being descendants of slaves has an impact on your life, financially: you don't have much money, because your parents don't, because their parents didn't because their parents were slaves and had nothing at all. But if you want to compensate THAT, you're gonna have to give practically every black american a shitload of money. If you give them a symbolic amount, than we're back at what I said above, it's easy. Like that, you don't show you're sorry, it's just like "Oh I don't have to feel guilty, we gave them some money." Also, quite obviously, not everyone needs the money. There are plenty African americans who, despite not exactly having a head start, really made something of themselves (and not just Oprah or Tiger Woods), but technically they are also descendents of slaves, so will they also get money? And if they don't, will they be angry?

And finally, don't the American government have slightly more important issues to focus (and spend money) on right now?
 
LookingGlass disagrees: I don't think the Presidents color has anything to do with it.
Neg Karma? Really? Thanks.

And you don't? Do you honestly believe this would have come up if we HADN'T just voted in a black man as president, with the whole Black History high?

Okay, I'm really thinking I'm sounding insensitive when I don't mean to be.
 
Buffy Summers
Buffy Summers
People can give negative karma if they want to without being bullied about it. She disagrees with you. Deal with it.
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Edmund Blackadder
Ohhh yay, its disagree with JC day. I gotta get me some of that action!
Neg Karma? Really? Thanks.

I feel like your statement was blatantly disrespectful.

And you don't? Do you honestly believe this would have come up if we HADN'T just voted in a black man as president, with the whole Black History high?

Maybe it's because I'm from Michigan and we recently had to deal with Affirmative Action with UofM

or maybe it's because I'm from Detroit and we have a few black people here,

but I don't really see this as a new thing. Yes, I firmly believe it would have come up even if we hadn't voted Obama in the white house. I see us dealing with it all the time. But like I said, it may just be my area.

Also, the last time I checked, Obama was half white too.
 
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StuckinTraffic
[No message]
I feel like your statement was blatantly disrespectful.
And, you know, maybe it was. Unintentionally. But I guess pent up feeling just come out negatively sometimes. I don't regret what I said, cause I always say what's on my mind. But do I agree it could have been.. less harsh? Yes.


Maybe it's because I'm from Michigan and we recently had to deal with Affirmative Action with UofM

or maybe it's because I'm from Detroit and we have a few black people here,
"Few" as in "many"? The itallics confuse me.

but I don't really see this as a new thing. Yes, I firmly believe it would have come up even if we hadn't voted Obama in the white house. I see us dealing with it all the time. But like I said, it may just be my area.
I don't know. I, personally, would never have seen this coming up if it hadn't been for the significance of what has occured with President Obama's election.

Also, the last time I checked, Obama was half white too.
Yes, but most people are only seeing the black half.


EDIT:
Buffy Summers disagrees: People can give negative karma if they want to without being bullied about it. She disagrees with you. Deal with it.
Okay, honestly, I was just kidding with that statement. No need to get in a hissy.
 
R
Relic
banner Karma, love that quote. And while I think Obama has nothing to do with the deal being in congress- it pre dates him...I whole heartedly agree that he has an influence (as well as Black History month) in it being covered by the media.
The presidents color does have nothing to do with it being in the works, but I do agree with SK8RJ04 that it coming to the media spot light has something to do with President Obama being 1/2 black and this being Black history month.

The paperwork has been in the hopper for some time, I remember right around this time of year last year, it (reparations) was being discussed. The news networks are event driven. take for instance Global warming...few were talking about in my neck of the woods when we had that cold snap in the Midwest that set records a few weeks ago...but yesterday when some areas broke 100 year records for highs Global warming was buzzing again...not climate change, but warming.

So here we have a some would call Black President in office during the President's day holiday coming up here in Feb. which coincidentally is also Black History month. I'm not saying it is a bad thing at all, there is no way to see it as anything more than newsworthy.

It sparks peoples minds about how far the African American community has come, which leads to covering something thats been floating in congress for a while now. Just like it did, with a little less fan fair, a year ago during the last Black History month.

The bill is not being considered because President Obama is in office, it has been in the works for years and has been discussed at both the state and federal levels for a good long while.
However, the timing of media coverage I don't think is coincidental, and the story is a bigger sell (for some, anyway) due to the fact that we do have a president that is partially black. ( despite the fact that he has no relation to a slave bloodline, although I think I remember hearing our first lady does.)
 
L
Lindsey McDonald
I agree. Bills take so long that current events rarely influence them, whereas the media can choose what to pick up instantly.
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itsxpaperdoll
Just.. Yup. Agreement ;)
YouTube - Family Guy-Peter Recently Discovered He was Black

That plate that Cleveland passes over at the beginning is a plate of Rice Crispie squares in reparations he gets from the white family who owned his family back in the day.

I like Rice Crispie Squares.

If anyone EVER wants to apologise and pay to me for something their great grandaddy did to my great grandaddy please do it with rice crispie squares!

With chocolate
 
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Relic
What is your stance on coco-crispies? I can not pick a favorite, myself.
I hate every form of Affirmative Action. I hate that Native American's get to go to college for free just because we took their land. We live in today. I don't care that your ancestors went through this and that to get where they are. That's life.


So I go to college for free simply because I have a CDIB? Do you know how many Native Americans struggle to get into college and off the reservation and never have the opportunity to earn an education? SERIOUSLY. I'm not a believer in Affirmative Action. I believe people should earn what they desire. But you in no way shape or form have a right to discriminate against me or any other person because you want to gripe about fallacies. I pay my taxes. I earn a living. I do not live off the government. The fact is that the United States initiated treaties with Indian nations. They established the trust doctrine in which they agreed to take certain nations under their wing (so to say) and provide for them based upon their treaty agreements. Why is the United States the only nation that does not have to adhere to its treaties? Why is the United States the only country that can say "Oops, I didn't really mean that. I'm not gonna follow through on what I legally agreed to do". You didn't take our land. You made agreements which are LEGALLY BINDING to purchase our land at a fee and you want to back out of having to pay for it. Do I agree with the trust doctrine? No. I think it infringes on the rights of sovereignty of tribes. Fact is we are still here. The Choctaw Nation is a SOVEREIGN Nation. Chata sia hoke. Get used to it.
 
palabravampiress
palabravampiress
As 1/4 Blackfoot, myself, I would argue in defense of the U.S. on the grounds that the soverignty of various native governments should have been rendered invalid when Native Americans gained the right to U.S. citizenship.
I am against reparations. I am against sovereignty for Native American nations. I don't think there is any way to atone for the injustices of the past, nor do I think that basing said atonement on the color of one's skin is likely to be of value to our nation in the long run.

It is possible that my background is unique, but in a nation of immigrants, I think it is far more common that my background is commonplace. I am 1/4 Native American (Blackfoot). My Papaw assimilated. He married a white woman, had a very large family, left us legacies both positive and negative, and rarely mentioned his heritage beyond a preference for corn meal rather than flour. He liked to keep candy handy for his plethora of great grandkids. He liked to drink. He liked to give to his community and his church of choice. He didn't like it when I called him "Little Buddy" because it drew attention to the fact that he was short. When his more-or-less white son was struck by lightning and rendered paralyzed and brain damaged, my Papaw cared for him for the rest of his life. He also fathered my Grandpa, who fathered my mother, who married my dad and then gave birth to me. Dad's family came from the British Isles. In fact, a couple of year ago, we ate dinner across the harbor from the ship (the Queen Mary) upon which our ancestors crossed. To my knowledge, then, I had no white ancestors living in the U.S. while slavery was in practice. As far as I can trace, my relatives (again, none of whom were white during the time period in question) were from Northern states in which slave holding was illegal. Currently, I have family members who are considered "white," those who are considered "other" or "mixed," and those who are considered "black." Furthermore, I grew up in a blue collar neighborhood in which I had the exact type of experiences -- gang violence, teen pregnancy, rampant drug use and crime, visiting relatives in prison, etc. -- that reparations seek to "repair" for black Americans. Finally, I happen to be literally color blind. With all of this as my experience and background, I simply can't see how it is in any way just or productive to penalize me for the color of my skin in order to make reparations to others for the color of theirs.

Equal rights under the law are important and (finally, after much struggle) have been achieved for all legal citizens above the age of 18. I think that we are much better off learning from the past and attempting to keep such atrocities from ever occurring again on our soil than we are from placing blame based on something as arbitrary as skin color, which changes from generation to generation, and imposing financial penalties on people who never held slaves on behalf of people who never were slaves. No person now living can atone for something he or she did not do, just as no person now living can accept an apology or reparations for atrocities that were not committed against him or her. Slavery is indeed a dark chapter in our nation's history, as are the atrocities committed against various Native American nations. But the way to honor the past is not to throw money at it or to impose financial penalties based on arbitrary differences like "race." The way to honor the past is to learn from it and to ensure that we do not repeat the same mistakes in the present.

I, personally, would never pay money to my uncle or to certain cousins because my Dad is of British decent -- even were it to be signed into law. It would be an unjust, racist law. My family members all grew up in the same neighborhood under relatively similar circumstances. No one of us was more privileged than the other based on the pigmentation of our skin. Largely because Thanksgiving dinner and family reunions include a wide variety of so-called "races" and backgrounds, I think reparations are founded on fallacy. I think they only lead to division. I think the way to make things better for some is to make things better for all. We're all Americans, regardless of what happened in the past. We're all in this together. Whether willingly or not, most of our relatives came here due to oppression of some sort or, in the case of Native Americans, suffered oppression of some sort. To play the "my ancestor was more oppressed than your ancestor" game is both ridiculous and counterproductive to our national interest.

I apologize if my views are offensive. I don't mean to offend. I merely wish to express my wish that we finally view one another as equals. That can't happen in a society that views us as "blacks," "whites," "Native Americans," or any other arbitrary racial grouping, nor can it happen in a society that punishes or rewards people for the sins and tribulations of our forefathers and foremothers.
 
H
Harley
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StuckinTraffic
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I don't know a whole lot about the Native American situation, but isn't the US still treating them--those that live on reservations, anyway--terribly? African Americans are equal in every way, but I don't think the Native Americans have quite made it. Please correct me if I'm wrong.
 
^ I'll open up another thread for the discussion of the legal status of U.S. Native Americans, as it is a related concept, but not the same as reparations and I don't want us to get too off topic.
 
Here's an interesting take on the whole Race and reparations issue.

Let's invent a county, Mislovachinknia, whatever. They were conquered by a superior nation (as were all nations since the dawn of man) and their indigenous people were enslaved 200 years ago. Since then their society has evolved, slavery has been abolished, great movement has been made to establish an equal society.

Of course there are still some Mislovachinknians whose families came from the conquering nation that believe that the Native population are just plain inferior.

At the same time there are Proud Mislovachinknians from the minority that were conquered that hold a grudge, teach their children a "whoa is me" mentality and basically lie around collecting handouts from the government, not taking advantage of the age they live in and basically doing nothing with their lives.

I think maybe the saddest Racism is against one's own race. The "we can't rise above the oppression" mentallity is just plain PATHETIC. Read history. Time and again Opressors have been beaten, in many cases peacefully. Anything is possible.

This metaphor could be applied to numerous groups spanning racial lines, gender lines, political beliefs, etc. etc.

Do you expect us to believe that the hard core criminal, drug dealer, terrorist, welfare cheat or whatever is the way he is 100% due to the color of his skin and the oppression he or his distant ancestors suffer or suffered? And if we could somehow wave a magic wand, turn back time and erase the oppression he would somehow turn out to be a real great person and benefit to his society? Doubtful.

He is the way he is because crime and corruption are easier than HARD WORK. The opression, real or unreal is just an excuse. Oppression and race have nothing to do with it. Character does. Sink or swim. Rise above or go under.

Just like that speach by Spike - "Someone came, someone conquered, it's over, deal." Not politically correct to say but the truth that all the politicians want to say is - "We are going to tie you up in negotiations for all eternity, you thinking that you may one day obtain some advance for the slights perpetrated against your ancestors, but we are never going to give you squat, it's just bad politics to tell you this obvious truth to your face. You were conquered hundreds of years ago. It's over. Deal."

Now if it were up to me I'd give back lands at the very least, but it's not. That's just the way it is.

Uncle Rory
 
Skanky Vamp
Skanky Vamp
the whole country thing has already been invented in a House, it had mixed metaphors, as well as mixed results. Wish you better luck with your country.
So I go to college for free simply because I have a CDIB?

I never said that.

Do you know how many Native Americans struggle to get into college and off the reservation and never have the opportunity to earn an education? SERIOUSLY. I'm not a believer in Affirmative Action. I believe people should earn what they desire.

As do I, which is why a free ride because of any race is wrong.

But you in no way shape or form have a right to discriminate against me or any other person because you want to gripe about fallacies.

Where/ when have I discriminated against you? The discrimination is against me...I'm white but have to take a backseat so places can fill a quota.

I pay my taxes. I earn a living. I do not live off the government. The fact is that the United States initiated treaties with Indian nations. They established the trust doctrine in which they agreed to take certain nations under their wing (so to say) and provide for them based upon their treaty agreements. Why is the United States the only nation that does not have to adhere to its treaties? Why is the United States the only country that can say "Oops, I didn't really mean that. I'm not gonna follow through on what I legally agreed to do". You didn't take our land. You made agreements which are LEGALLY BINDING to purchase our land at a fee and you want to back out of having to pay for it. Do I agree with the trust doctrine? No. I think it infringes on the rights of sovereignty of tribes. Fact is we are still here. The Choctaw Nation is a SOVEREIGN Nation. Chata sia hoke. Get used to it.

I'm sorry if I offended you. I have no problems with you or with anyone because you're Native American/Black/purple/green/blue/orange/etc. But I'm not sorry about what I said. My issue is with the way that any races are being priveledged over others. America - ONE nation, under God. Not one nation (unless we were mean to you in the past, then you can have this, this, this).
 
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