Retcon - or what is canon?

bespangeled

bespangeled

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This thread comes out of the discussion Mr. Pole was having with me about whether or not Buffy was institutionalized. The television episode Normal Again had the fact that she was institutionalized as canon - the comic Origin precludes any such event, thereby retconning the episode.

One small note - unless Origin has a few panels showing Angel looking through the window while Buffy's parents argued and she cried - there is a whole new, and far less attractive reason for Angel showing up in Sunnydale. Since she had absentee parent in the comic Origin, I suspect this is the case. But it was in that scene that Angel decided he wanted to help Buffy.

There's also the TGIQ retcon which asserts that it wasn't Buffy dancing - but a decoy. I'm not sure how many others there are.

So what is canon? I don't read the comics - does that mean I can decide that the television show is canon? Does Joss get to decide? Opinions?
 
Origin is compatible with the institutionalization theory because it's natural that she was sent to a mental hospital after the gym was burnt.

The decoy story makes more sense because spending a lot of time in Rome dating and having fun while Giles/Willow/Xander are busy is a very un-Buffy thing to do.
 
vellavu said:
Origin is compatible with the institutionalization theory because it's natural that she was sent to a mental hospital after the gym was burnt.
Click to expand...

The show is pretty specific that this occurred before she knew she was called, and really that she had no idea what she was seeing. Can that be reconciled?

WILLOW: You are not in an institution. You have never been in an institution.
BUFFY: (whispers) Yes, I have.
WILLOW: What?
BUFFY: (sighs) Back when I saw my first vampires... (shot of the photo) I got so scared. I told my parents ... and they completely freaked out. They thought there was something seriously wrong with me. So they sent me to a clinic.
WILLOW: (shocked) You never said anything.
BUFFY: (tearful) I was only there a couple of weeks. I stopped talking about it, and they let me go. Eventually ... my parents just ... forgot.
WILLOW: God. That's horrible.
 
Canon can be a tricky thing sometimes. I take the shows to be canon. I don't read the comics so I'm not sure what they say. I always thought that Normal Again saying Buffy was institutionalized was a bit of a retcon to being with. I feel like Joyce would have reacted differently when Buffy says shes's a vampire slayer. But I'm cool with her parents, just forgetting. Also she doesn't say that it was when she was called to be a slayer, just that when she saw her first vampire. Which could have been before or after she was called.

The decoy story. Well I like The Girl in Question. But I didn't like the idea of Buffy dating the Immortal. So I fine if that is retconned to be a decoy.
 
I accept the comic books as canon. I feel there is confusing and conflicting information. I also feel life is confusing and conflicting. I remember things that absolutely for sure happened to me and every once in awhile my Mum corrects me and tells me what really happened. There's a saying "3 sides to every story, mine, yours and the truth". Maybe Buffy felt she was in a mental hospital, maybe her parents felt she was in counselling. Sometimes teenagers over dramatize events and in time come to see them differently, sometimes over time small events become larger in our minds. I'm okay with all the canon adding up because that is kind of like real life.
 
The mental institution might not be a retcon for the Dawnverse. But it defintely doesn't work with the Canonverse. There is no way Buffy was ever in an asylum pre-Dawn because she had way too many slip-ups in S1-2 and Joyce just always looked at her like 'you say the oddest things sometimes' and shrugged it off. If Buffy had been locked away before she wouldn't slip up like that and Joyce wouldn't just shrug those things off. However you could say it's canon of the Dawnverse because everyone's memories were completely altered. And I wouldn't put it past Dawnverse Joyce with her disgusting Dawn favortism to have Buffy locked away as a safety precaution to protect Dawn.

The problem for me when it comes to canon is the endless discussions where people try to prove their point by using their own fanon, no matter what canon says. I remember the discussions here about Angel not having Liam's soul or Angel willingly wanting to become a vampire. Yet we have seen on screen that Darla vamped out after Liam's eyes were closed and we know the words of the restoration spell. Yet people vehemently tried to argue their fanon as canon despite all the canon evidence to the contrary. To interpret canon differently is one thing. But to completely disregard canon because it fits your view better just doesn't work.

The worst of course comes with the BTS stuff, be it interviews or commentary. People will quote things some writer said and argue it's canon while another writer will contradict this and people will go with that as canon. And then fans will use these quotes as *proof* of what they percieve as canon. And it just doesn't work.
 
Retcon's have happened way before Dawn came along. In S1 Angel tells Buffy that he hasn't fed of a human since the night he was cursed and that gets retconned into a lie.
Also his 'falls in empathy' with Buffy in 'Becoming' gets retconned in 'Helpless' to instant love at first sight.

The Normal Again thing is probably the worst from the stand-point of Buffy/Joyce, since although it heaps yet more misery on Buffy it does it at the expense of Joyce's memory and our views of her. It makes her worse; all those times where Buffy just blurts out that she's a vampire slayer, or even mentions the word vampire (at least 4 by my count in S1/2) and Joyce has this bemused reaction on her face.
Like I we supposed to interpret that as 'I thought we nipped all that in the bud when we shipped you off to an institution young lady!' 😕

As for Dawn's presence; whilst I agree that it would affect Joyce the most (although I don't think it affects her personality), it wouldn't really affect the Scoobies.

But the troubling question is Buffy; a lot of Buffy's behaviour the first 4 seasons works because she is an only child, kinda spoiled pre-slayer and doesn't like her life distrupted by outside forces such as Ted, Kendra or (the biggie) Faith.
Add to that that her best friend/cousin died at a young age in hospital and all those other little thingsa that make up Buffy's character- it just doesn't work if she had this younger sister in the mix.
Because if what we're shown is true- in 'Weight Of The World' that Buffy remembers the exact day that Dawn was brought home from the hospital and wanted to look after her- then Buffy' outlook pre-slayer would be entirely different. she just wouldn't be as spoilt and entitled as we were shown.

The only way it works is that if Buffy was just a terrible sister; self-absorbed with her own life to the point of narsisicm and just completely disinterested in Dawn until she finds out that shes the Key.

I mean, I like Dawn but I do think the way she was introduced was problematic.

It seems that no retconnning that happens gives a positive outcome for at least one of the characters involved.
Of course there's always that one exception. 😉
 
bespangeled said:
This thread comes out of the discussion Mr. Pole was having with me about whether or not Buffy was institutionalized. The television episode Normal Again had the fact that she was institutionalized as canon - the comic Origin precludes any such event, thereby retconning the episode.
Click to expand...
You neglect to mention Slayer Interrupted which was the reason for that line in Normal Again in the first place and the fact that it was decanonized. That was the first comment I made about that episode. It wasnt just Origin that retconned it and that is the part that you seem to have trouble with. The purpose of the line was retconned thereby the line is invalid.
 
Mr. Pole said:
You neglect to mention Slayer Interrupted which was the reason for that line in Normal Again in the first place and the fact that it was decanonized. That was the first comment I made about that episode. It wasnt just Origin that retconned it and that is the part that you seem to have trouble with. The purpose of the line was retconned thereby the line is invalid.
Click to expand...

You said Slayer Interrupted was not canon in the other thread.

@Mr. Pole: No it wasnt. At the time she talked to Willow it was not canon. As the events she described never took place according to canon. IF you consider the comics canon. Which Whedon said Origin was and Slayer Interrupted was not. If you consider comics canon then the TV contradicts canon.

And it doesn't matter if you are a fan or not, Whedon considered them canon so they are canon. The Origin was produced prior to the episode in which Buffy mentions the institution so then the writers of the show ignored canon. However, Slayer Interrupted which came out subsequent to the show would have and did validate the show's scene, but that comic is no longer considered canon, so it never happened, so the show ignored canon.

If Slayer Interrupted validates the scene then it validates rather than retcons. If Slayer Interrupted is not canon, then whatever it says is completely moot. The only reason I didn't factor it in is that I assumed it is the only part of the question we both agreed doesn't apply.

The bigger question is what makes canon. In your opinion, it's apparently what Joss says. Does that mean that the other things he has said about the show are also canon? How much does he got to decide for the viewer or reader?
 
bespangeled said:
If Slayer Interrupted validates the scene then it validates rather than retcons. If Slayer Interrupted is not canon, then whatever it says is completely moot.
Click to expand...
This is the last time I will speak on this in the faintest hope that you can understand. Slayer Interrupted was the only thing that ever validated that line and that was decanonized. Nothing that we were ever shown, of ever told of Buffy's history suggested she was ever institutionalized. You had one comic book that supported the institualinazing of Buffy and that was deemed not canon.

It is your choice whether you accept one line said for dramatic purpose in this one episode as what really happened versus everything that has been shown and seen previously to it which contradicts it. So once again, that episode contradicts canon.

bespangeled said:
In your opinion, it's apparently what Joss says
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No, in your mind that is my opinion. I said Joss said the Origin is canon. He is the showrunner and him dictating what is canon IS what makes things canon. His personal opinion on ships, etc are not what makes things canon; it makes things his personal opinion. So his thought on Buffy and Angel together or Buffy and Spike are not canon, they are his opinion. His saying "this comic is canon" as it tells the story he wants to tell, and "this comic isn't" as it doesnt tell the correct story is however canon or not.
 
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bespangeled said:
The show is pretty specific that this occurred before she knew she was called, and really that she had no idea what she was seeing. Can that be reconciled?

WILLOW: You are not in an institution. You have never been in an institution.
BUFFY: (whispers) Yes, I have.
WILLOW: What?
BUFFY: (sighs) Back when I saw my first vampires... (shot of the photo) I got so scared. I told my parents ... and they completely freaked out. They thought there was something seriously wrong with me. So they sent me to a clinic.
WILLOW: (shocked) You never said anything.
BUFFY: (tearful) I was only there a couple of weeks. I stopped talking about it, and they let me go. Eventually ... my parents just ... forgot.
WILLOW: God. That's horrible.
Click to expand...

I have such a problem imagining a parent who would forget that the child had been in a psych ward.
 
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