Revelations - Giles Was Totally Wrong

[garfan]

I didn’t mean to appear as though that’s what I was saying, so I apologize for the confusion.

It’s more that at the time, Angel having a soul or not having a soul was irrelevant to Giles. Regardless of if Angel was ensouled or not, his face is still the same one that Giles saw while he was tortured for hours. It’s hard to forgive something like that, regardless of whatever outside factors there were.

Additionally, Angelus being Angel without a soul shows that every moment of every day, Angel is capable of that. That is within him and is his deepest darkest being. The thing that prevents it is his soul, but he is still capable of great evil. Especially when the switch is so tenuous (all he has to do is find true happiness or take some drugs like he does in Angel (lol)), it makes sense to me why it doesn’t matter. Angel could’ve come to Giles’s feet, apologizing and pleading and crying for forgiveness and it wouldn’t have mattered. At the end of the day, that being, whether Angel or Angelus, was still responsible for what happened and is still very capable of having it happen again.

The point I should’ve made more apparent is that, yes, Angel and Angelus are two different beings. But in that moment, it makes no difference to the wronged. Whether he was ensouled or not was irrelevant to Giles next to the trauma and sadness he has to now live with for the rest of his life.

I think Buffy understood that which means she actually did the right thing. If your emotions are going to keep you from thinking, from acting on facts you taught her then how can she trust you

I also don't buy the thing about Angel being capable of that, because the soul prevents him from being capable of that

 

[NoShip]

Didn’t Xander catch Buffy kissing Angel? I’d say Giles had a fair reaction. I’d also say between Jenny and getting physically tortured he’s more entitled that anyone to have an emotional reaction to Angel being back and Buffy concealing that information.

I agree with you. And that predictable vengeful emotional reaction is why I believe Buffy was right in not telling Giles.

I think Giles anger at not being told is childish. He had the knowledge & experience & insight a few episodes ago to notice something seriously wrong with Buffy & come up with a caring way of helping Buffy out. In this episode, he enables Kick the Buffy then goes off on her for doing the right thing.

Xander did see Buffy kissing Angel and did the right thing by telling Giles & Willow. However, it looks like he told out of anger & jealousy, not concern. So, no 'good guy' credit for him. Or, Giles for that matter.

 

[thetopher]

Does it make sense to say Giles being angry that Buffy didn't tell him about Angel is evidence that Buffy was right not to tell him about Angel?


Do we think that Giles would have the exact same reaction if Buffy came to him in 'Beauty And The Beasts' (or just after, when Angel had come to his senses) and said 'somehow Angel returned' (or something less meme-y)?

If yes then I'd like to see the evidence or reasoning, because the contrary is evident in Giles attitude towards Buffy many times before Revelations.

 

[KaitKat]

And that predictable vengeful emotional reaction is why I believe Buffy was right in not telling Giles.

Can you please explain how Giles reaction is vengeful? He actually seems to be doing a pretty good job holding back as he deliberately did not mention Jenny. All he said is that Buffy has no respect for him and at this point in the narrative that’s a fair accusation.

I think Giles anger at not being told is childish.

Giles is angry because Buffy hid Angel so this argument doesn’t really hold weight for me. Just seems like a way to excuse Buffy’s immature behavior.

Xander did see Buffy kissing Angel and did the right thing by telling Giles & Willow. However, it looks like he told out of anger & jealousy, not concern.

I didn’t really bring this up to discuss Xander’s motivations although I do agree that he was angry my point was that Buffy’s behavior justifies the lack of faith that she is currently being shown. She sleeps with Angel, he loses his soul, he hurts and kills a lot of people, Angel comes back, Buffy keeps it a secret but is caught making out with him. Even Oz can see that she’s wrong/reckless.

 

[NoShip]

Does it make sense to say Giles being angry that Buffy didn't tell him about Angel is evidence that Buffy was right not to tell him about Angel?


Do we think that Giles would have the exact same reaction if Buffy came to him in 'Beauty And The Beasts' (or just after, when Angel had come to his senses) and said 'somehow Angel returned' (or something less meme-y)?

If yes then I'd like to see the evidence or reasoning, because the contrary is evident in Giles attitude towards Buffy many times before Revelations.

Well..... The scene where Giles wakes Buffy up in the library (I didn't think you knew what a card catalogue was) in BATB. When Buffy tells Giles about her dream, he immediately becomes distant & obviously troubled & hurt & negative by talking about Angel. He also does not distinguish between Angel & Angelus. And, it is an accurate assumption by Buffy that Giles, after the murder of his lover & torture of himself by Angelus, will not be the least bit objective about Angel's return.
There is another scene, but, I can't remember it just now.

So, I think Buffy was justified & Giles' (& the Scoobies') anger was wrong. BUT, Buffy needed to 'fess up rather quickly to avoid some permanent ruptures in her relationships.

And, Xander needed to have Buffy break his jaw for what he said in the intervention.

 

[NoShip]

Can you please explain how Giles reaction is vengeful?

He let Buffy get hammered by the "intervention" and let it go on far too long and become far too personal. Very OOC & vengeful. Plus his reaction to Buffy's dream in BATB.

Giles is angry because Buffy hid Angel so this argument doesn’t really hold weight for me. Just seems like a way to excuse Buffy’s immature behavior.

Your Mileage Does Vary.

Buffy's behavior is not immature. Based on how Willow & Xander & Giles have acted & how none distinguish between Angel & Angelus & how all react or can be expected to react to finding out that Angel was back from hell, hiding Angel until he could fend for himself was probably the most mature thing Buffy could do.

 

[thetopher]

When Buffy tells Giles about her dream, he immediately becomes distant & obviously troubled & hurt & negative by talking about Angel.

I remember the scene and I would characterize it as...awkward from both Buffy and Giles. Not necessarily hostile or negative. But she does ask Giles questions and he answers them honestly, regarding demon dimensions and dreams and such. He sympathizes with her desire as he states that he has similar dreams about Jenny after she 'was killed'.
There is also one key thing he says which (to me) obviously references Angel:

BUFFY: Okay. But let's pretend - wacky world - he somehow ended up here in Sunnydale again. I mean, what would he be like?
GILES: I can't really say. What little is known about the dimension accessed via Acathala suggest a world of brutal torment. And time in demon worlds moves quite different that here -
BUFFY: Yeah. I remember… So, - Angel would have been there for, like, hundreds of years?
GILES: Yes.
BUFFY: Of torture.
GILES: (nods) Only a person with tremendous will and character could survive that and retain any semblance of self.
BUFFY: So, he'd be a monster. A lost cause.
GILES: Maybe… Maybe not. In my experience, there are two kinds of monsters. The first type can be redeemed. And, more importantly, wants to be redeemed…
BUFFY: And the second type?
GILES: The second - is void of humanity. It can not respond to reason. Or love.

Seems like a clear reference to the difference between Angel and Angelus. Also Giles has also made clear distinctions between the two states as far back as 'Innocence' in S2. Of course his feelings might've changed since then but intellectually he understands the difference.

I don't think that's enough for Buffy to assume a negative reaction from Giles in regards to her.
She might be worried about Angel in general so she puts Angel (again) above her duties as a slayer. This is not a good call, in fact its a persistent character flaw of Buffy regarding her personal life.

She could've confided in Giles and maybe kept her friends out of it altogether but she wanted to keep Angel her secret and so made a situation much worse, what with the tai-chi and the kissing and such. Plus Xander finding out in the worst possible way at the worst possible time.

He also does not distinguish between Angel & Angelus.

I would say that he does, the previous episode Buffy confesses to Giles and Willow that her spell worked and Angel had his soul returned; they both react with genuine sympathy.
Giles doesn't state; 'Sorry, but so what, Buffy? it's basically immaterial if the demon was ensouled or not' *shrug*. But he obviously understands why this would've caused Buffy to do what she did.

 

[NoShip]

GILES: (nods) Only a person with tremendous will and character could survive that and retain any semblance of self.
BUFFY: So, he'd be a monster. A lost cause.
GILES: Maybe… Maybe not. In my experience, there are two kinds of monsters. The first type can be redeemed. And, more importantly, wants to be redeemed…
BUFFY: And the second type?
GILES: The second - is void of humanity. It can not respond to reason. Or love.

Not sure where this is referring to Angel & Angelus. Seems to be a general reference to any being that spends centuries in the Acathla dimension.

Post automatically merged: Feb 2, 2024

She might be worried about Angel in general so she puts Angel (again) above her duties as a slayer. This is not a good call, in fact its a persistent character flaw of Buffy regarding her personal life.

She should be worried about Angel. Both what he would do, and, what her friends would do to him since no one has given her any reason to trust them.
She has no reason to trust Willow or Xander [Xander's Lie implicates both] and she has good reason to be unsure of Giles [Tortured by Angelus & Murder of Jenny]. From Buffy's view, what reason has anyone given her to trust them with Angel?

As to her duty, Buffy should be able to have some down time and have a personal life. She seems to have a rather good handle on Angel. Also, Buffy seems to be much more serious about ensuring Angel's inability to harm others until he is no longer controlled by his 'trigger'. Unlike later seasons.

I am curious if Angel would ever allow himself to be happy enough to lose his soul again? Probably a topic for another thread.....

 

[NoShip]

She could've confided in Giles and maybe kept her friends out of it altogether

Could she? Angeles murdered Giles' lover & displayed her corpse is the most horrible way possible. A few weeks(?) later he tortured Giles for hours (days?). These happened about 4 to 5 months before Revelations. What reason does Buffy have to think that Giles can be the least bit objective after that?

 

[KaitKat]

I think we’re just going to have to disagree. I think Buffy was wrong and whatever reasons she had for her choices people still had the right to be hurt and angry. I don’t find Buffy keeping secrets that could have deadly consequences mature because someone might be upset, I actually find that to be the opposite of maturity, and Buffy was playing with fire by kissing him after everything that happened. There’s really nothing to be said that would convince me that Buffy is in the right in this episode and everyone else is mean/cruel/vengeful towards her. They all have a right to not trust her judgment at this point.

 

[ILLYRIAN]

For example only.

Yet if Giles became a nasty kind of guy, one might say he was evil yet would anyone make special comments about him having a soul? No and why not? Because it is normal for a human with a soul to be an evil SOB, so why be all special when a vampire (demon) has a soul, or not?

 

[NoShip]

They all have a right to not trust her judgment at this point.

As Buffy had a right to not trust their judgement well before this point.

You are correct. We will not agree.

I hope you have a good night.

 

[Plasma]

Let’s try to keep things civil and understanding, please. Everyone has differing opinions and that’s great! It would be boring if we all agreed all the time. 🙂

 

[NoShip]

Serious Question.

What reason did Buffy have to trust Giles?

As far back as Prophecy Girl she blasts him for not protecting her from the prophecy. In When She Was Bad, she conflates Giles with The Master in her dream. She knows that Giles has sent her out to die every night she has been in Sunnydale for the last 2 years. She also knows that Giles will continue sending her out until she is dead for good.

So, again, what reason does Buffy have to trust Giles, not work with, TRUST.

And, since Buffy has good reasons to not trust Giles, why would she even consider telling him about Angel?

 

[RachM]

Serious Question.

What reason did Buffy have to trust Giles?

As far back as Prophecy Girl she blasts him for not protecting her from the prophecy. In When She Was Bad, she conflates Giles with The Master in her dream. She knows that Giles has sent her out to die every night she has been in Sunnydale for the last 2 years. She also knows that Giles will continue sending her out until she is dead for good.

Okay, but Giles isn't sending her out to die in the way you're making out; Buffy is The Slayer. Whether Giles is her Watcher or someone else is, it's her duty to patrol every night. Now, we can absolutely debate the ethics of a bunch of old dudes sending a teen girl to defend the world, but the argument should be against the Council as a whole and the concept of The Slayer, not against Giles as an individual, who does his best to protect and watch over Buffy, at least in the high school years.

She doesn't blast Giles in Prophecy Girl for not protecting her, she's upset at the reveal that she's fated to die and she takes it out on Giles (and Angel). Then Giles decides that he will protect Buffy and go to face the Master instead of her, and he's only prevented from this by Buffy herself knocking him out. I'd say that's a pretty good indication of her being able to trust Giles.

Lastly, I don't think Buffy's nightmare in When She Was Bad is supposed to indicate that she doesn't trust Giles but rather that she is still suffering from PTSD from dying in the Season 1 finale and she conflates this death with her duty as the Slayer and by extension Giles as her Watcher. But it's very specific to this particular trauma and not indicative of her feelings towards Giles as a whole.

So, again, what reason does Buffy have to trust Giles, not work with, TRUST.

And, since Buffy has good reasons to not trust Giles, why would she even consider telling him about Angel?

Giles has proven many times that Buffy can trust him. They have spent two years building a relationship and we have seen Buffy confide in Giles many times (Never Kill A Boy On The First Date, Lie To Me, Innocence) and each time he was offered her advice and reassurance (Innocence in particular is a shining example of this, when Giles quietly lets Buffy know that she doesn't need to feel any shame over sleeping with Angel or Angel losing his soul). Giles has fought beside Buffy, been there to emotionally support her, spent an entire summer searching for her and has proven many times that she can trust him.

So I absolutely believe that he had the right to call Buffy out the way he did and I will never hold it against him.

Lastly, as for whether Angel and Angelus are the same person or different entities; I've always viewed it as Angel and Angelus being two sides of the same coin. Both sides are different yet they exist together to form the whole and one can't exist without the other.