Rewatching Buffy anyone else's tastes have changed ?

[Btvs fan]

I....what? I'd ask if this is a joke but I won't like the answer. Stunned that people would blame Buffy for hurting Spike's feelings - how warped is that?





And as we discover, what happens when you keep a popular character around and have no clue what to do with him.


He was more effective in smaller doses.




We've discussed it before, but insert anyone else. Any demon that appeared on the series, or any other human considered average looking, and audiences would be calling for his head. If Jonathan stalked Buffy, kidnapped her and tried to force her into admitting non-existent feelings, he'd be labelled a disgusting creep. If it was Owen, or Parker, same thing.

But...hot characters tend to get away with a lot more. And for the most part with Spike, his stalker behaviour is mostly played for laughs.





And considering they'd already done the vamp/slayer romance...



That was deeply stupid. But as I'm learning by being here at the forum, Jane Espenson had a hand in that happening. Buffy 'rewards' him with a kiss, and then immediately tells him the sexbot he made of her was "gross". It's a wild pivot.

A sincere thank you would suffice.




True. Never mind the huge age gap between Anya and Xander...


That always makes me laugh, "Aw, Spike consoled Buffy when she was upset!" - blatantly ignoring the fact he came to her house with a shotgun to take her out. How romantic.




I'm reminded of the clip to Lionel Richie's 'Hello'. That....has not aged well.

Jonathan mind controlling and sleeping with the twins in S4 is no different to what happened with Katrina but it was played for laughs.

Riley being raped by Faith was played as Buffy upset that she slept with another boyfriend. His agency was forgotten

 

[hoponlilmama]

Jonathan mind controlling and sleeping with the twins in S4 is no different to what happened with Katrina but it was played for laughs.

Riley being raped by Faith was played as Buffy upset that she slept with another boyfriend. His agency was forgotten

Yes, thank you for bringing those up too.
The show has a history of not addressing or handling sexual assault properly - with multiple characters.

 

[NoShip]

That sort of behaviour should never be romanticised. We would have less people remaining in abusive relationships if it wasn't. You can't even say that you wish those romanticising it experienced that kind of "love" first hand, because that's effectively saying "I hope you die."

You obviously don't follow the best-seller machine that are the Dark Romance novels.

 

[Btvs fan]

You obviously don't follow the best-seller machine that are the Dark Romance novels.

It was the same with Angel too. It was deeply disturbing that he first set eyes on her at 15 (Becoming) and declared (in Helpless) that he loved her since he first laid eyes on her
He dated her when she was 16, slept with her when she was 17 and broke up with her at 18. He did sleep with her again at 19 but took back the day so she won't know!
Let's be frank if not for the actress being older than the character they couldn't have got away with this.
If it had been say MT (who was that age) dating a 27 year old, people would be grossed out

 

[NotASlayer]

You obviously don't follow the best-seller machine that are the Dark Romance novels.

I have read reviews of horror shows such as November 9 and a comment from one of the better reviews, which saw the book for what it was, works just as well for Spike as it did for the creep in that book: "Ben is another controlling douche wrapped up in a gorgeous "I give you new self-esteem" package.". Now, I have read a comment from one woman that though they might like to read such books, they don't want to experience monsters like that in real life, but I have a suspicion she is in the minority and it would take being on the receiving end of stalking and abuse of that nature for some to finally come to their senses. But maybe not, as the language used to defend Spike and Spuffy is the language used by abusers and victims to defend said abusers.

 

[Btvs fan]

I have read reviews of horror shows such as November 9 and a comment from one of the better reviews, which saw the book for what it was, works just as well for Spike as it did for the creep in that book: "Ben is another controlling douche wrapped up in a gorgeous "I give you new self-esteem" package.". Now, I have read a comment from one woman that though they might like to read such books, they don't want to experience monsters like that in real life, but I have a suspicion she is in the minority and it would take being on the receiving end of stalking and abuse of that nature for some to finally come to their senses. But maybe not, as the language used to defend Spike and Spuffy is the language used by abusers and victims to defend said abusers.

Spike was/is incredibly popular. He's really not that different from Anya or Angel. Sadly it's just how the show was written back then.

Hell you could probably add Wesley being super creepy with Fred as another on that list. Fred's death was essentially to serve his man pain.

 

[Fuffy Baith]

When I was a teen watching Buffy (sporadically) I loved it. Then in my 20's I did two full rewatches, and I was obsessed, but some things like the Spike stuff stood out to me more, as being gross. I haven't done a full rewatch since then, but I rewatch my favorite episodes. I think for me, the episode to episode stuff doesn't hold up, most of Buffy's overall journey still holds up. But mostly I love certain moments from episodes. And that's kind of where I'm at now, the show had really great moments, that are impactful and resonate with me, or are just hilarious.

 

[Stake fodder]

I only watched Buffy for the first time about five years ago, but certainly some things on re-watching don't play as well. I think part of watching a show I loved decades ago is about how it made me feel then, and who I was at the time, and feeling nostalgic for that. I hope you find some of that still with Buffy.

 

[November]

I only watched Buffy for the first time about five years ago, but certainly some things on re-watching don't play as well. I think part of watching a show I loved decades ago is about how it made me feel then, and who I was at the time, and feeling nostalgic for that. I hope you find some of that still with Buffy.

Yeah agreed.
For me its the comfort of the familiar.
I have been caught up in all sorts of bandwagons about what is right and what is not. Now I just accept and enjoy it for what it is when I watch it alone, but will still poke and prod for the sake of conversation here, even if its not my view, I will look at it from other view points to keep the thrill of the show in mind.

Spoiler: Off topic

You obviously don't follow the best-seller machine that are the Dark Romance novels.

Spoiler: Off topic

Yeah these kinks should be as widely acceptable as any other sexuality, its all under the same umbrella. What one thinks is abuse, another will read as a love language. Therapy/psych speak isnt everyones deity, not everyone feels traumatised by what has traumatised another. Nothing is black and white. Just that these types have to seek the same types and neither should force their sexual preferences on another nor shame them for it.

they don't want to experience monsters like that in real life, but I have a suspicion she is in the minority and it would take being on the receiving end of stalking and abuse of that nature for some to finally come to their senses. But maybe not, as the language used to defend Spike and Spuffy is the language used by abusers and victims to defend said abusers.

You should see how popular the consensual non-consent spaces are. Women begging for it, entering contracts so men are protected. Buffy used Spikes obsession, she wanted Spike to treat her like that, until she didnt. Just like Willow took the step to use the magic in the way she did, but no one thinks she was a victim.

Out of world, if it was Marti writing this - being pregnant near that time is going to cause all sorts of raging hormones. The vast majority of kinky book fans, are mothers.

If we look at the time Angel was alive as Liam, it was perfectly acceptable to be lusting after a teenage girl (heck it still is now, with 18 year olds on only fans making the most money). Edward in Twilight is the same example - a 17 year old showing his interest by his over protective actions was romantic in his time - and still is in some circles. How many stories are there of great granparents being married before 18? And places where older women are married to teen boys to grow them up. This is off topic, but the point I am trying to make, is siblings will smack each other in the face and neither would consider it abuse, but an only child would consider it assault. The culture now with those in charge decide what is acceptable for the time and that will continue to change as time goes on. Not everyone wants to live the current culture and as long as they stay out of the way of the law, no one can force them to. What you see as abuse, plenty DO see as a turn on. No one can judge any sexual preferences as "wrong" in 2025 even in pro psych/therapy circles.

In saying all that, I have never been a Spuffy, Bangel is my first and always 'ship, through and through. I loved the romance and the appeal of the strong, dark and handsome, experienced, forbidden man - I still do. I love the chosen family bit of Buffy, which is seen as cringe now. I love the one girl in all the world seemingly surrounded by friends, yet alone in her journey. The core story is what appeals and will continue to appeal. The rest is just fluff, bits to talk on but not important enough to squash my love for the show. Like fashion and language changes, but the coming of age experience will always be the same.

 

[hoponlilmama]

Spike was/is incredibly popular. He's really not that different from Anya or Angel. Sadly it's just how the show was written back then.

Hell you could probably add Wesley being super creepy with Fred as another on that list. Fred's death was essentially to serve his man pain.

By the way, there's nothing wrong with not feeling the same passion for the series.

BTVS was created at a moment in time - it's like when you look back and see an old hairstyle you had - you likely looked awesome at the time, looking at it now, you probably wonder what the heck you were thinking. 😂

I haven't done a full re-watch for a few years, but tend to do re-watches of a particular season (or two!) when the mood strikes. And maybe that will work for you, just stick to the episodes/seasons you really love.

Sometimes, one must suspend their disbelief to continue enjoying the series.

 

[Btvs fan]

By the way, there's nothing wrong with not feeling the same passion for the series.

BTVS was created at a moment in time - it's like when you look back and see an old hairstyle you had - you likely looked awesome at the time, looking at it now, you probably wonder what the heck you were thinking. 😂

I haven't done a full re-watch for a few years, but tend to do re-watches of a particular season (or two!) when the mood strikes. And maybe that will work for you, just stick to the episodes/seasons you really love.

Sometimes, one must suspend their disbelief to continue enjoying the series.

That may work. It certainly works for Angel. For example Angel S2 I'll watch through to Reunion, which is some of the best writing on either show,
then just watch Reprise and Epiphany and Dead and skip Pylea (Joss Whedon's cameo feels so self indulgent) altogether.
Omg that episode Happy Anniversary where that guy tries to freeze his girlfriend because she's going to break up with him and Angel takes him for a beer in sympathy 🫤


In terms of moment in time, Buffy as a show was built on High School is hell and Whedons own obsession with his school years. After the show left High school it did seem to struggle to work out what to be. Especially with Angel being spun off and presented as the Adult show. I wonder if that hurt it ?

 

[hoponlilmama]

That may work. It certainly works for Angel. For example Angel S2 I'll watch through to Reunion, which is some of the best writing on either show,
then just watch Reprise and Epiphany and Dead and skip Pylea (Joss Whedon's cameo feels so self indulgent) altogether.
Omg that episode Happy Anniversary where that guy tries to freeze his girlfriend because she's going to break up with him and Angel takes him for a beer in sympathy 🫤

I need to do a full re-watch of AtS! Last time I just watched s4 and s5. Just trying to get through some other television shows first (that are new to me).

In terms of moment in time, Buffy as a show was built on High School is hell and Whedons own obsession with his school years. After the show left High school it did seem to struggle to work out what to be.

I'm of the opinion the transition from high school to college was done pretty well - but am aware there are some fans who don't feel the same.

Especially with Angel being spun off and presented as the Adult show. I wonder if that hurt it ?

Maybe? There were a number of changes in s4 - we lost Cordy and Angel. Oz left, Anya came in, Tara came in, Spike was back. So many pivots and perhaps the writers weren't prepared for what the series looked like and how they'd shape it.

 

[NotASlayer]

You should see how popular the consensual non-consent spaces are. Women begging for it, entering contracts so men are protected. Buffy used Spikes obsession, she wanted Spike to treat her like that, until she didnt.

The key word in that is consensual. It was what separates kinky fun naughtiness from abuse. Buffy never consented to Spike stalking her, chaining her up, abusing her in season five. In fact, consent is missing completely from their relationship. Buffy had to use force to stop Spike from doing anything; if she removed her consent, he didn't care and raped her. Spike's behaviour is that of an abuser, not of someone in a mutually fun - and Buffy was clearly not enjoying herself for the majority of season six - relationship. In season seven, Spike never asked if Buffy was comfortable with her rapist returning; he forced himself on her again and demanded gratitude. I am all for people enjoying themselves in a bit of naughty fun, but Spuffy was never that. Spike's actions in season five and beyond are the sort of things you find in Criminal Minds unsubs.

 

[Btvs fan]

I need to do a full re-watch of AtS! Last time I just watched s4 and s5. Just trying to get through some other television shows first (that are new to me).



I'm of the opinion the transition from high school to college was done pretty well - but am aware there are some fans who don't feel the same.




Maybe? There were a number of changes in s4 - we lost Cordy and Angel. Oz left, Anya came in, Tara came in, Spike was back. So many pivots and perhaps the writers weren't prepared for what the series looked like and how they'd shape it.

Oh I'm a fan of The College setting and like you I thought it worked well but Joss dropped it by Season 5

 

[Btvs fan]

The key word in that is consensual. It was what separates kinky fun naughtiness from abuse. Buffy never consented to Spike stalking her, chaining her up, abusing her in season five. In fact, consent is missing completely from their relationship. Buffy had to use force to stop Spike from doing anything; if she removed her consent, he didn't care and raped her. Spike's behaviour is that of an abuser, not of someone in a mutually fun - and Buffy was clearly not enjoying herself for the majority of season six - relationship. In season seven, Spike never asked if Buffy was comfortable with her rapist returning; he forced himself on her again and demanded gratitude. I am all for people enjoying themselves in a bit of naughty fun, but Spuffy was never that. Spike's actions in season five and beyond are the sort of things you find in Criminal Minds unsubs.

I thought Spike teaming up with a Pedophile in In The Dark a bit excessive

 

[Btvs fan]

@hoponlilmama I just thought it was a bit much. First he attacks Angel with a 2by4 and gets his arse kicked.
Then he teams up with a pedophile "you like kids don't you Marcus? Well likes to eat...and other nasty things"
Who is then betrayed by Marcus to the surprise of no one except Spike himself. Angel "you hired a Vampire, what do you think he's going to do ? Hand it over to you ?"
Spike then sets himself on fire !! The man is an idiot

 

[NoShip]

You should see how popular the consensual non-consent spaces are. Women begging for it, entering contracts so men are protected. Buffy used Spikes obsession, she wanted Spike to treat her like that, until she didnt. Just like Willow took the step to use the magic in the way she did, but no one thinks she was a victim.

In S6 Buffy was devastated mentally and emotionally. Spike used that mental and emotional devastation along with a large amount of shaming and implied threats to break Buffy down even more than she already was so she would have sex with him. Spike was interested in fxcking a Slayer not getting her consent.

Once they have sex, Spike expertly plays Buffy's mental-emotional distress and shame and fears to get her to keep on having sex with him. Again, no consent involved.

I agree with you on consentual Kink but Spuffy S6 was not consensual. It was coercive. Spike spelled it out in Wrecked - the only thing better than killing a Slayer is fxcking one. Spike said and did whatever it took to keep Buffy coming to his crypt. No consent involved.

 

[November]

I thought Spike teaming up with a Pedophile in In The Dark a bit excessive

I never saw it that way, only learned of that veiw when I joined here. I thought he just liked kids cos they were more tasty. 😂 Like how Darla wanted to eat kids when she was pregnant.

The key word in that is consensual. It was what separates kinky fun naughtiness from abuse. Buffy never consented to Spike stalking her, chaining her up, abusing her in season five. In fact, consent is missing completely from their relationship. Buffy had to use force to stop Spike from doing anything; if she removed her consent, he didn't care and raped her. Spike's behaviour is that of an abuser, not of someone in a mutually fun - and Buffy was clearly not enjoying herself for the majority of season six - relationship. In season seven, Spike never asked if Buffy was comfortable with her rapist returning; he forced himself on her again and demanded gratitude. I am all for people enjoying themselves in a bit of naughty fun, but Spuffy was never that. Spike's actions in season five and beyond are the sort of things you find in Criminal Minds unsubs.

In S6 Buffy was devastated mentally and emotionally. Spike used that mental and emotional devastation along with a large amount of shaming and implied threats to break Buffy down even more than she already was so she would have sex with him. Spike was interested in fxcking a Slayer not getting her consent.

Once they have sex, Spike expertly plays Buffy's mental-emotional distress and shame and fears to get her to keep on having sex with him. Again, no consent involved.

I agree with you on consentual Kink but Spuffy S6 was not consensual. It was coercive. Spike spelled it out in Wrecked - the only thing better than killing a Slayer is fxcking one. Spike said and did whatever it took to keep Buffy coming to his crypt. No consent involved.

My point was, plenty of fans find the fantasy hot. No one should shame Spuffies or say they are not allowed to like that, especially in 2025 where a wider range of sexual interests is socially acceptable.

This topic always feels like a dog with a bone with some posters here, it's no wonder the spuffies have left for friendlier fields. What was that bit Spike said? "Its my bone, just drop it!"

 

[NoShip]

No one should shame Spuffies or say they are not allowed to like that, especially in 2025 where a wider range of sexual interests is socially acceptable.

This topic always feels like a dog with a bone with some posters here, it's no wonder the spuffies have left for friendlier fields. What was that bit Spike said? "Its my bone, just drop it!"

No one was being shamed. As I have said multiple times on multiple threads, the lack of consent is the issue not whatever kink someone is into. And there are certain posters on both sides who turn it into something like a dog with a bone.

On a side note, i'm not sure why i have to be friendlier to a group of people who are not very friendly in return.

 

[Btvs fan]

I never saw it that way, only learned of that veiw when I joined here. I thought he just liked kids cos they were more tasty. 😂 Like how Darla wanted to eat kids when she was pregnant.



My point was, plenty of fans find the fantasy hot. No one should shame Spuffies or say they are not allowed to like that, especially in 2025 where a wider range of sexual interests is socially acceptable.

This topic always feels like a dog with a bone with some posters here, it's no wonder the spuffies have left for friendlier fields. What was that bit Spike said? "Its my bone, just drop it!"

No Spike says "He likes kids to eat and other nasty things"
Angel latter choses to fight him in the day because "he's gotta thing for children"

I agree no one should attack Spuffies not least because Bangel is equally problematic. You can moan at Joss (Marti normally gets blamed instead) but the fans is harsh. Though Fury did it admittedly and he was a writer.