Riley and Vampire Prostitutes - thoughts?
- Thread starter Joshua
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I don't recall that he was having sex with them. It has been a bit since I have watched that episode but I thought he just had them bite him. regardless I think it was revolting and sick. I think he so insecure about himself not being as strong as Buffy who is a slayer for god sake that he went half crazy. I never thought he was a good match with Buffy he wanted to be in control and the strong one too badly to ever be with a slayer. I don't think Riley would have ever been able to come to terms with the fact that slaying comes first and everything else second. It would have ate him up and drove him further and further off the deep end until he did something even more insane.
To be fair to Riley, I don't really think he went to the vamp den because he was upset that Buffy was stronger than he was - if that was the case, he would have been going down that route in S4, as soon as he found out just HOW MUCH stronger than him she actually was.
As I said in the other Riley thread - the one about whether or not Buffy loved him - his reason for going to the vamp den was because he was upset that Buffy wasn't turning to him for comfort when her mother was sick. In fact, she was turning AWAY from him, and Riley struggled with understanding that.
On the one hand, I can sort of understand his need to feel wanted by going to the vamp den, but on the other, it was a vary childish, selfish move on Riley's part. The mature thing was to sit Buffy down and explained to her how he felt and how he wasn't sure if their relationship was going to hold up, instead of waiting until AFTER his secret had been found out and blaming the whole thing on Buffy, making her out to be the bad guy in their relationship.
Actually it was quite clear that a big reason he was insecure was because of her superiour strength hence him almost dying to keep that chip in him that made him strong. As I said it has been a while but I thought that he went to the den because Spike told Riley buffy needed a little monster in her man.
That's your opinion, one that I don't subscribe to.
Yes, Riley had issues with Buffy's strength, that's never been in question. BUT, Riley didn't go to the vamp den until mid-way through S5, when Buffy, quite literally, shut him out of her life. If it was about the strength thing, he would have been going in S4. He wasn't.
He went in S5, when he felt like Buffy didn't need him. He wanted to feel wanted, and that has nothing to do with Buffy's strength or his lack thereof as far as I'm concerned. And yes, Spike told him that Buffy 'needed a little monster in her man', which I believe to be complete crap and nothing more than Spike's attempt to get rid of Riley, but it made Riley remember the fact that Buffy allowed Dracula to bite her. He wanted to know what that felt like and that's why he picked up Sandy in that bar - because, just like Dracula and Buffy, Sandy needed something from him, his blood. And it's the same with the vampires in that den, they NEED his blood and Riley NEEDS to be needed.
It's an established fact in canon that some vampire bites produce an orgasmic experience, and I think that's what Riley was looking for, too - hence him telling the vampire to bite harder when Buffy finally finds him and realizes what's going on.
I like Riley, I do, but I HATE that he puts the blame for all of this at Buffy's feet. Buffy's mother was sick, she had her sister to take care of, and yes, Buffy should have explained to Riley that she needed some space, but it was wrong for Riley to give Buffy that ultimatum, in my opinion. RILEY was the one who cheated, but that scene in the training room makes HIM sounded like the injured party, which just isn't right as far as I'm concerned.
Well I think that it was a culmination of everything. He was getting more and more insecure as time went on. Going to that den is something that would have been like rock bottom and a person does not get that low easily. So yes I think that her being superior physically actually is part of your main point. I say that because he wants to be her knight or whatever and he wants to be her protector and she certainly does not need him in that way and it obviously bothered him a great deal. And I think that Spike's comment to him really was one of the driving forces behind everything wrong with Riley. Also wrong as it may have been to say there is evidence to support Spike's comment. Buffy was able to open up more to Angel and Spike (Spike being a vampire without a soul) than she ever was to Riley. Buffy saw darkness in herself and I think she looked for it in her men. I Just think that Riley knew Buffy didn't need him and also that she would never truly open up to him.
Black Eye Guy
Taking over the World!
I definitely agree with Lyri, I dont think by mid season 5 that her strength had a massive part to play in his insecurity. It might have creaked the door open, but it was flung open by everything else.
I dont think Riley is as shallow to be worried about her strength and go get bitten by a vampire, I think if he was he wouldn't have come back for her help in season 6. He would have wanted to prove he could do it himself, but I think he needed to be needed and Buffy didn't need him.
Their breakup is very realistic, I can see someone being upset if their partner is going through something like their mom being sick and they dont turn to them for help.
But Buffy being a slayer and having a sister to look after makes complete sense why she'd deal with it herself, their both right and wrong.
But it doesn't seem like it has anything to do with something shallow like their strength difference.
Spike knew exactly what he was doing when he said that to Riley, I dont think for a second that season 5 Spike knew Buffy well enough to know what she'd actually want, since he admits in season 7 it wasn't till he got a soul that he understood her.
But he was a stalker who wanted to break them up, and knew exactly what to say to wedge that between them and make Riley do something stupid.
I dont think Riley is as shallow to be worried about her strength and go get bitten by a vampire, I think if he was he wouldn't have come back for her help in season 6. He would have wanted to prove he could do it himself, but I think he needed to be needed and Buffy didn't need him.
Their breakup is very realistic, I can see someone being upset if their partner is going through something like their mom being sick and they dont turn to them for help.
But Buffy being a slayer and having a sister to look after makes complete sense why she'd deal with it herself, their both right and wrong.
But it doesn't seem like it has anything to do with something shallow like their strength difference.
Spike knew exactly what he was doing when he said that to Riley, I dont think for a second that season 5 Spike knew Buffy well enough to know what she'd actually want, since he admits in season 7 it wasn't till he got a soul that he understood her.
But he was a stalker who wanted to break them up, and knew exactly what to say to wedge that between them and make Riley do something stupid.
No, it wasn't, it wasn't part of my main point at all.
What I posted was MY opinion, and I made that perfectly clear. I stated exactly what thought and felt about that arc. You posting this line actually sounds like you're putting words in my mouth and telling me what I should and shouldn't think or post, and I find that completely degrading.
This will be my last post in this thread - or at the very least, my last post in this particular conversation. We don't agree, and that's fine, we're all entitled to our own opinion and our own interpretation of the show. But please respect that difference of opinion.
Black Eye Guy
[No message]
I actually just meant that it goes toward the point of him feeling like he wasn't needed by her. No offense intended whatsoever. I never put a single word in your mouth just that your point was he feel like he wasn't needed and that could go with it. you should try to be a little less sensitive because I didn't say anything degrading at all. I would never tell anyone what to think I was just pointing out that feeling not needed doesn't necessarily mean just emotionally in this case.
---------- Post added at 01:43 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:40 PM ----------
So you are saying his quoutes saying that he didn't want to be "joe Normal" had nothing to do with her superior strength and that him risking his own life to be strong had nothing to do with him being insecure about Buffy? From my perspective it was clear since they sparred and she kicked him into the wall how much this bothered him. I never said it was the main reason he went to the den only that it was part of an accumulation of things that drove him there.
---------- Post added at 01:43 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:40 PM ----------
So you are saying his quoutes saying that he didn't want to be "joe Normal" had nothing to do with her superior strength and that him risking his own life to be strong had nothing to do with him being insecure about Buffy? From my perspective it was clear since they sparred and she kicked him into the wall how much this bothered him. I never said it was the main reason he went to the den only that it was part of an accumulation of things that drove him there.
Lyri
You expressly told me what my point was, so yes, you were telling me what to think. And telling me to be 'less sensitive' is incredibly rude. I'm done with this thread.
Black Eye Guy
Taking over the World!
Doesn't he say she doesn't want Joe Normal, not that he doesn't want to be Joe Normal?
There is a difference, and it shows the idea that was planted there by Spike, I dont think it's about the strength, it's about everything, that whole kicking him across the room and his issues with her strength were more a season 4 issue. I dont think they were at the forefront in season 5. She's a slayer, she's built to work alone and keeps people at a difference.
When he says she doesn't want Joe Normal, I think that more cuz he doesn't think he's good enough for her, he's not supernatural not something beyond human. Spike just planted that idea in him, or it was already there, but Spike helped it grow cuz he wanted his stalking victim free.
The fact Buffy runs after him to try and catch him never really gets explored.
No he said he doesn't want to give up his strength and be joe normal. Also I said this before that I wasn't saying it was at the forefront just that it was part of an accumulation of things that drove him to do what he did. I understand that it was in season 4 but it still happened and like I said I think it is relevant to it because it was because of his many insecurities that he ended up going to the den.
---------- Post added at 02:35 PM ---------- Previous post was at 02:17 PM ----------
No i expressly said that I think it was part of your main point telling you that I think you were missing something that I had thought of. Nowhere did I say this is what you think or should think just that you said he felt not needed and that part of the point of being not needed could also be her not needing him physically as well.athe point was that he felt like he wash't needed so I was adding somethiing to that point in particular I said "your point because you brought it up. If you didn't understand what I meant then I apologize but instead of jumping down my throat you could have asked me to clarify what I meant instead of assuming I was telling you what to think. I personally could care less if you agree the whole point is for us all not to agree with everything if we did there would be no discussion. You miunderstood my post completley and took offense to it which is unfortunate. If your done with this thread fine but I didn't expressly tell you what to think.
---------- Post added at 03:09 PM ---------- Previous post was at 02:35 PM ----------
I'll agree that I shouldn't have told lyri to be less sensitive but I didn't correct anyone's point. I said I THINK it is part of Lyri's main point the key there is I think. I never used an absolute so it was my opinion. I was simply pointing out that I thought they were missing something so I pointed out something that I felt was pertinent to the point they were trying to make. At no point did I say they should agree with it just that I thought it was relevant to the point they were trying to make. So no I don't feel that was rude at all because I have a right to point it out if I think someone overlooked something. Saying I think makes a world of difference in this case.
---------- Post added at 02:35 PM ---------- Previous post was at 02:17 PM ----------
No i expressly said that I think it was part of your main point telling you that I think you were missing something that I had thought of. Nowhere did I say this is what you think or should think just that you said he felt not needed and that part of the point of being not needed could also be her not needing him physically as well.athe point was that he felt like he wash't needed so I was adding somethiing to that point in particular I said "your point because you brought it up. If you didn't understand what I meant then I apologize but instead of jumping down my throat you could have asked me to clarify what I meant instead of assuming I was telling you what to think. I personally could care less if you agree the whole point is for us all not to agree with everything if we did there would be no discussion. You miunderstood my post completley and took offense to it which is unfortunate. If your done with this thread fine but I didn't expressly tell you what to think.
---------- Post added at 03:09 PM ---------- Previous post was at 02:35 PM ----------
I'll agree that I shouldn't have told lyri to be less sensitive but I didn't correct anyone's point. I said I THINK it is part of Lyri's main point the key there is I think. I never used an absolute so it was my opinion. I was simply pointing out that I thought they were missing something so I pointed out something that I felt was pertinent to the point they were trying to make. At no point did I say they should agree with it just that I thought it was relevant to the point they were trying to make. So no I don't feel that was rude at all because I have a right to point it out if I think someone overlooked something. Saying I think makes a world of difference in this case.
Kean
Correcting someone as to what their point is is rude. Telling them they should be "less sensitive" is even ruder.
white avenger
white avenger
In Riley's own words, he visited that place because "they needed him." Apparently, he felt that Buffy no longer did, or at least no longer needed him as a fighting partner, and he wanted to be more than just the Slayer's snuggle puppy.
This episode did bring up a good point, though, and one that I have often wondered about. Apparently, being fed on by a vampire gives the victim, at least under certain circumstances, something of a sensual thrill. This is fairly common in other stories of the genre, but, other than the one time in Season 3 when Angel fed on Buffy, it is, to the best of my memory, the only definite example that we have seen in either of Joss' shows.
This episode did bring up a good point, though, and one that I have often wondered about. Apparently, being fed on by a vampire gives the victim, at least under certain circumstances, something of a sensual thrill. This is fairly common in other stories of the genre, but, other than the one time in Season 3 when Angel fed on Buffy, it is, to the best of my memory, the only definite example that we have seen in either of Joss' shows.
I think that it was a really foolish thing to do.
Sure, he was upset with Buffy for not turning to him. But allowing a vampire (which in my opinion is almost a suicidal action) to feed from him is not really going to fix the problem, and wasn't really a mature way to act. He could have at least tried to speak to Buffy. But instead he decided to betray her trust.
I just really don't get what the hell he was thinking. Maybe I would have been more satisfied if his stupidity had of gotten him killed or at least severely injured. 😉
Sure, he was upset with Buffy for not turning to him. But allowing a vampire (which in my opinion is almost a suicidal action) to feed from him is not really going to fix the problem, and wasn't really a mature way to act. He could have at least tried to speak to Buffy. But instead he decided to betray her trust.
I just really don't get what the hell he was thinking. Maybe I would have been more satisfied if his stupidity had of gotten him killed or at least severely injured. 😉