Riley IS better then Angel/Spike!

[Icarium]

Spike and Angel are not my ideal boyfriends either but neither one of them ever betrayed her in the way that Riley betrayed her and there is no excuse for his behavior.

Even disregarding the Angelus arc which was about betraying Buffy, Angel has:

- wiped out Buffy's memory
- told her he knew how to deal with Faith, so she needs to get out of "his town"
-

Spoiler

done nothing but betray her in S8
- is up to something she would never agree with in S9 too

Spike for his part pretended to be dead just because he couldn't decide how to face Buffy and while he was soulless backstabbed Buffy quite a few times.

Riley on the other hand, has risked his career and probably an execution for treason too, for Buffy's sake again and again. He doesn't make decisions for Buffy, unlike Angel who has presumed to know better than her again and again. If anything, an argument can be made that Riley shouldn't have listened to Buffy so much, letting Hostile 17 roam free for years was extremely irresponsible of both of them and only plot contrivances ensured that this ended well and not with Spike getting back to killing again.

 

[dexeded]

I never disliked Riley, and only found out for the fan dislike when I got on BB. I liked him when he and Buffy were skirting around each other, because I loved that they both had secrets from each other that were awesome, but after that I was just okay with him, him being kind of dull. But this thread's given me a newfound appreciation with Riley.

That said, I just want to point out that Riley always had a problem with Buffy being stronger than him. He said he didn't, but he clearly found it hard to believe and accept. Angel and Spike, on the other hand, truly understood what it meant to be a Slayer, the strength and responsibility that came with it.

 

[Summerlilly]

Talking about Riley with a friend here on BB I discovered that Riley is more of a hero and champion than Angel or Spike will ever be.....Angel and Spike were worthless as humans and I believe if Riley was given either of those two abilities he would be better not to forget that hes the best for Buffy no matter and she doesn't deserve him after her stunts! Carry on.............

I like your style, NY. Way to make a statement! haha 😎😛 But really, is Riley more of a hero and a champion then Angel or Spike will EVER be? Because Angel and Spike were more or less forced into being heroes as tormented demon vampires with souls and Riley chose it? I think there's no reason to debate their levels of champion-ness overall. As humans, I agree Riley takes the cake. Riley definately deserved Buffy... but in the end I think it really came down to her heart being already taken.

I wanna say yay for Riley just cause he deserves some love!!! Woot! But don't put down my other homeboys!!!! hahahha 😀😀

 

[Washburne]

That said, I just want to point out that Riley always had a problem with Buffy being stronger than him. He said he didn't, but he clearly found it hard to believe and accept. Angel and Spike, on the other hand, truly understood what it meant to be a Slayer, the strength and responsibility that came with it.

Spike and Angel has known about slayers more or less since they became vampires. Spike fought two and Angel stalked/followed Buffy for quite a while and stayed away from slayers before knowing how dangerous they'd be for him. Riley, although being aware of demons for a little time, most of them big and dangerous, needs to adjust to the fact that his girlfriend not only fights demons as well but is also a chosen one. The latest slayer in a long line of slayers those purpose/destiny is this fighting. I can understand how that's a lot to take in and process. The whole "little tiny girl" thing might be sexist but it's not that difficult to understand is it? How sad it might be. He's trying to deal with it. What more can you ask? Relationships are giving and taking from everyone involved.

Was Riley perfect? No. Was Buffy? No. Were Angel or Spike when they were with Buffy? No. Yet Riley seems to be the one being blamed the most. He if anyone, is only human.

 

[ticonderouga]

Riley is a better man then either Angel or Spike, though he is far from perfect. However, that does not make him the right guy for Buffy, and vice versa. He's loyal, honest and straightforward. Now, Riley has a few glaring flaws, many of which are exacerbated simply because the character was never fully developed. After season 4, Riley literally has no purpose in Sunnydale other than being with Buffy. Yet Buffy never particularly needs him, and is mostly with him out of convenience. Although its more subtle, Buffy is using Riley for comfort in season 5, much the way she used Spike just to feel anything at all in Season 6. Yet, the way she uses Spike haunts her, she agonizes over it for the entire season, but she doesn't even see that she is using Riley. I really don't think that Buffy's strength or power were ever really an issue for Riley, but what was an issue is that Buffy never really needs him for more then an errand now and then. That and Buffy frequently belittles him, and takes him for granted.

 

[Tome]

I'm actually surprised there have been so many nice compliments thrown Riley's way in this thread. 😱 I guess there are more Riley fans in here than I thought. 😛 😉

I agree with what most people have said. I like both Angel & Spike, but I think it's good to remember sometimes that Riley was a pretty good guy, when you consider what some of the other characters(see Angel & Spike) were like in their human lives.

Oh and I really liked this part of Wash' last post:

Was Riley perfect? No. Was Buffy? No. Were Angel or Spike when they were with Buffy? No. Yet Riley seems to be the one being blamed the most. He if anyone, is only human.

Bingo man!

 

[caritas08]

Really? Between the two of them they tried to kill her, killed friends, tormented her and her loved ones, tried to rape her and called her degrading names. Those were all betrayals.

I don't see how Riley letting a vamp feed on him is any worse than what the Angel and Spike have done.

Angel and Spike didn't do those things when they had their human souls. I thought we were comparing the human souls of Angel and Spike with the human soul of Riley. If that is the case I still prefer the human souls of Angel and Spike to Riley's. But yes, as demon possessed vampires Angel and Spike were much worse than the human Riley.

 

[kittenpoker]

Another pro riley point I'd like to make is when in the episode superstar, he's the only one that right away has buffy's back when she says she suspects things aren't as they should be.

All in all a really good guy.

 

[samsam]

To me Briley never had the chemistry of Bangel/Spuffy but no doubt Riley was a good man and I love his relationship with Sam.

Better as a human than Liam I'd agree with, but William, gotta disagree there. Spike's human self was gentle, maybe not the suavest guy on the planet but he had a good heart.

 

[VisionGirl]

Interesting thread! While I don't agree that angel and spike were worthless as humans, I definitely don't think they were the heroes that riley was. Liam, though extremely self absorbed and kindof a woman chaser and a drunk, definitely showed a spark of *something* - some deeper quest of his soul, when his eyes lit up as darla told him about all the places she'd been.... you could see there was more to him then that just hadn't been expressed yet. And William, he has the soul of a poet, but lacking any self confidence and strength, yes he comes off as rather well, sad?

But riley.... he accepted buffy for who she was right from the beginning, even though everything she was about (asking questions, not following orders- just for the sake of following them). He wasn't threatened by her. Not even by her being a better fighter than he was. That to me shows huge strength of character.

And of course, he was strong enough to remove the chip even though it had rendered his body paralized (mind over matter!).

So, yes he was much more of a hero as a human than angel or spike.

ITA! Plus, consider the events of season 8: Spike was MIA until the end, and we know what Angel was busy doing. What was Riley doing? Putting himself in harm's way for Buffy. Seriously, season 8 Riley impressed me so much, it solidified my fanlove for him!

 

[white avenger]

Angel and Spike were worthless as humans and I believe if Riley was given either of those two abilities he would be better not to forget that hes the best for Buffy no matter and she doesn't deserve him after her stunts! Carry on.............

From what little that we've been shown about Liam, Bill Clinton was a choir boy by comparison, so a boy scout like Riley wouldn't have any challenge in that contest. As for William, I can't see any indication that his character was any less exemplary that Riley's. Granted, I can't see Riley being bullied by his peers the way that William was, but I don't actually see that as any sort of character reference, since both good and bad men can stand up for their rights. So, while I can agree that Riley is probably a better man than Liam, saying the same about William is questionable.

As for whether or not Riley is any better a man than soulless Angelus or Spike, that's a pretty safe bet, obviously. As for ensouled Angel and Spike, I can't see any great amount of specific "goodness" in either one of the three that would make one better than the other two. None was perfect, each had his faults, but each tried, for the most part and within their specific situations, to be "good" men.

 

[ladydorotea]

It is funny that when looking at the human 'larvae' of the two vampires many here praise their 'chosen one' as human for what they dislike in another guy as a vampire the most. RE: Liam used to be a debonair rebel type, drinking, womanizing and basically sampling out every sinful experience that was forbidden by his strictly religious family. Is not this why many of the Spike fans love him so much for? Soul or not, Spike loves his booze and smokes, loves chasing after every skirt in sight ( and loves getting under them), loves experimenting with the forbidden, and spits on proprieties. And yes, he talks back to his 'elders'. A perfectly 'lovable rebel'. And yes, I kind of understand the allure.

Now, Willy used to be a broody thoughtful boy with none of the Spike-y's sass, bookish, prudent, respectful of his elders, and - by my estimates - what the Spike's fans most dislike in post-souled Angel - i.e. 'boring'. Yet, in retrospect it earns him a label of a 'good man'. But 😎 , you know, being broody quiet , bookish type , with penchant for self-analysis and solid set on loving just one woman at a time is what Angel is despised for as a vampire...

Not to over-analyze here -- I always suspected the 'personalities reverse' was the whole point of these flash-backs.

As for Riley being better than both of them. He is a good boy, brave and with his heart in the right place - but he had never been to places the vamps have been to. I cannot imagine what he would have turned into after being turned, but I suspect it would not have been pleasant.

 

[Moscow Watcher]

To be fair, human!William was featured in three scenes only (scene with Cecily and scene with Dru in FFL; scene with his mother in LMPTM). Souled Angel had got a bit more screen time.

I like Angel, I don't find him boring, especially on his own show, but I can understand why some people find his character getting stale on BtVS.

 

[Gum Gnome33]

Is not this why many of the Spike fans love him so much for? Soul or not, Spike loves his booze and smokes, loves chasing after every skirt in sight ( and loves getting under them), loves experimenting with the forbidden, and spits on proprieties. And yes, he talks back to his 'elders'. A perfectly 'lovable rebel'. And yes, I kind of understand the allure.

This is actually a very interesting theory but doesn't happen to be true in my case. For one thing, I do not see Spike as a skirt-chaser. Throughout his entire relationship with Dru, he was the one who wanted it to be monogamous. He's loyal to a fault. If Buffy had agreed to enter into a relationship with him, he wouldn't have looked at another woman. As he says to her in season 7 when he's unaware that he's under the first's influence: he meets up with other woman to just pass the time. But it's all about her. It's something he does in loneliness and defeat. (There is no relish for getting under skirts for him.) Shortly thereafter he rejects Anya's (insincere) request for sex. In Ats he flirts with Fred, sure, but doesn't even try to pursue her. Then he wants to have sex with his ex-girlfriend upon becoming recorporialized, sure; that act doesn't really qualify him as a "player." 🙂 Both times we see him in bars he isn't interested in chasing women. One time he's listening to Harmony complain, and the other time he's preparing for open mic night. If anyone was skirt-chasing in season 5 of Ats it was Angel, with Nina. 😉

you know, being broody quiet , bookish type , with penchant for self-analysis and solid set on loving just one woman at a time is what Angel is despised for as a vampire...

While I don't come close to despising Angel, my reasons for disliking him at times, (or liking him less than Spike), have nothing to do with any of these, actually. For one thing as I said, the notion of being set on loving one woman at a time appeals greatly to me, and it's one of the things I love most about Spike, (and Riley too for that matter). I don't see Angel as bookish, and I don't really see him doing much self analysis, though I deeply enjoy his philosophy toward doing what is right, how to live in the world, and how to be a good person, (vampire, whatever). The things Angel says and does to that effect throughout Ats make the show worth watching IMO, and make his character greatly enjoyable.

As for Riley being better than both of them. He is a good boy, brave and with his heart in the right place - but he had never been to places the vamps have been to. I cannot imagine what he would have turned into after being turned, but I suspect it would not have been pleasant.

This I completely agree with. Riley is great but this is sort of an apples/oranges comparison...

 

[ladydorotea]

I don't see Angel as bookish, and I don't really see him doing much self analysis.

See, that's what I call selective filtering. Angel is probably the second to Giles character in the early seasons that is seen with books the most, well maybe except for Willow ( I don't count the Scoobs when doing research - they dont do it on their own for pleasure , but I can add Owen, lol, ). S1, S3 mostly, true, as in S2 he is all too involved in his main plot. He is even shown reading Sartre in the original ( French) for goodness sake in the Lover's Walk episode. Add to this him being a talented artist (who used to hang out with impressionists and poets), loving classical ballet and having a degree of knowledge of the occult (he is one of a few characters who uses magic and does his own research now and then) and it is hard to miss how much he had had to read and educate himself over decades of being a vampire - to pick up all that stuff - with him starting out as uneducated Irish lout from the backwater place. Add to this his continuous self-search of his true purpose - he has tons of dialogs with about every character on each show trying to explain himself and his vision of his path - something that Spike never does until S7 and never goes back to in A S5, and I can only shake my head on how can anybody miss all of that.

 

[Willow My Love]

I don't know about that. Yeah, Riley's a more selfless person, but not really better. It's not all that fair to judge them against him. He came from a different time, a different place, with different advantages. Spike didn't hurt a fly when he was human. He was a sweet man. Angel was a reckless ass, but still. That doesn't necessarily color Riley better, I don't think. Just different.

 

[Gum Gnome33]

See, that's what I call selective filtering. Angel is probably the second to Giles character in the early seasons that is seen with books the most, well maybe except for Willow ( I don't count the Scoobs when doing research - they dont do it on their own for pleasure , but I can add Owen, lol, ). S1, S3 mostly, true, as in S2 he is all too involved in his main plot. He is even shown reading Sartre in the original ( French) for goodness sake in the Lover's Walk episode. Add to this him being a talented artist (who used to hang out with impressionists and poets), loving classical ballet...

In the spirit of being nice I'd appreciate it if you wouldn't state that I'm selectively filtering. It's my take on the character. In Ats it seems to me that Wesley is primarily the one who consults the books while Angel does the fighting. I didn't say he wasn't cultured or intelligent, or fond of the classics. I myself love Sartre and am a professional artist but I wouldn't call myself bookish. I see Angel consult the books a few times in Btvs but I guess I don't qualify him as "bookish." Just another way of defining the term. Also I never understood that whole bit about hanging out with great artists and poets. I mean I know it's mentioned several times but I don't see how it fits in to his timeline. Clearly he wasn't when he was human, and clearly he wasn't after having been cursed, (we see in "Orpheus" and "Becoming" that he mostly kept to himself in the sewers), which means that time spent with them would have to have been while he was evil, (but Impressionism happened in the late 19th century--didn't he have his soul by then, and wasn't he retreating from humanity mostly until Buffy and Whistler came along?) I'm curious to know what your take is on that, actually. It's something I always wondered about when watching Ats.

Add to this his continuous self-search of his true purpose - he has tons of dialogs with about every character on each show trying to explain himself and his vision of his path

I don't deny in the least that he constantly strives to do right in the world, I just don't think he does it much through self reflection. In fact, I always saw Angel as very avoidant when it came to really analyzing his life and where it was going/where it should be. I think before Whisler came along he was truly afraid of himself and resisted consideration of how he might better fit in the world, or what his true path should be. Starting in Ats when the personal tragedies start piling up, I see him as more concerned with moving forward whilst adhering to what he believes in--doing good, helping--as opposed to dwelling or questioning.

- something that Spike never does until S7 and never goes back to in A S5, and I can only shake my head on how can anybody miss all of that.

Yes, well Spike doesn't have a soul until season 7. Spike is avoidant too, in Ats. It's all too new, too painful, and too much to figure out whilst resisting an impending apocalypse. I imagine it was all quite similar to what Angel went through when he first got his soul and was living in the sewers.

 

[ladydorotea]

we see in "Orpheus" and "Becoming" that he mostly kept to himself in the sewers), which means that time spent with them would have to have been while he was evil, (but Impressionism happened in the late 19th century--didn't he have his soul by then, and wasn't he retreating from humanity mostly until Buffy and Whistler came along?) I'm curious to know what your take is on that, actually. It's something I always wondered about when watching Ats.

It is implied, I think, that the sewers were one of souled Angel's downturn periods , and that he went through quite a few of these during the 100 or so years of him having a soul. The submarine episode is in the 40ties and he is quite lucid there when confronted by FBI agents. Same can be said about the 'Are you now or have you ever been' episode - it is the late 50 ties, if I am not mistaken. So, we can assume that Angel's period of 'great depression' started sometime in the 70ties or 80 ties - because before that he actually visited Vegas and was at Elvis and Priscilla's wedding reception at the Aladdin Casino. It is not clear what triggered his long bout at the sewers , but it is also implied that that was not his first failure to find purpose and plunging into despair and destitution. When you live that long you go through cycles.

 

[white avenger]

As for Angel's periods of sewer living and rat draining, might that not be at least partially due to the state of his finances at the time? Sure, he was shown in the deepest stages of depression while in the alleys, but he was also shown as reclusive and and non social (as opposed to anti social) Basically, wherever he was, he tended to be alone unless someone actually intruded in on his life, and going out job hunting just doesn't fit into that kind of life style. As to exactly where or how he actually would occasionally make money, I have a few ideas, but that really isn't important to this suggestion, except to simply say that he went from stages of relative financial comfort to, literally. homeless and feeding on whatever vermin he could catch. Just that in itself would be conductive to extreme depression.