Honestky if there’s one thing that is a major flaw in the Buffyverse writing it’s that they really struggled to do meaningful character development without ‘going dark’. Hence some characters floundering or then squeezing some ‘going dark’ stuff when it doesn’t really work like with Riley
TheXandymanYeah. Didn't care much for the whole 'My girlfriend doesn't love me so I'll go out and let a vampire bite me'.
I think he should have had a girlfriend when we first met him. I think wanting someone you can't have because they are already taken is more part of the college experience, and something Buffy has never experienced. Then she can get "fridged" by Veruca. Then Riley has a reason to hate werewolves. Then they can recover together. That works better that than two attractive white heterosexual people, or whatever that Community joke was, I was too busy taking National Review's kissing test.
I'm one of the few people who liked Riley. His early encounters with Buffy are lighthearted and kind of awkward, the way it often is when you meet someone new.
Riley fell in love with Buffy. He turned his back on the military and everything he was taught to believe when Walsh tried to kill her. As someone else already mentioned, he lost his identity by everything the military and Walsh did to him, even to the point he needed surgery in season 5. He became less powerful, and I know people despise how he acted because of it, but I believe that has more to do with the fact he felt like Buffy already didn't need him. If he can't be useful to the group and the cause like he used to be, what reason could she possibly have to stay with him?
Riley letting vampires feed on him, I saw that as something akin to drug use or cheating, but in the sense that he's also not getting what he needs from the relationship. The vampires need him, Buffy doesn't. Buffy is going through an incredibly difficult time in her life with her mom being sick, finding out Dawn is the Key, and Glory being the new big bad. Although she is going through a difficult time in her life, Buffy doesn't lean into Riley at all. He's conveniently there for her, but she doesn't actually need him.
I felt like Xander's speech was appropriate because it basically resonated with everything I felt as a viewer. Riley gave her an ultimatum, but he gave her a choice. When Angel left, he never gave Buffy a choice. Obviously there were other circumstances involved, but Buffy still had a choice. What makes it more painful is that she ran after him and was too late. Riley left thinking Buffy didn't choose him. Personally, I think Riley is the one who got away. However, I don't think he would have worked as endgame either.
Now, as many of you know, my favourite Buffy season is the first one, followed by the second and then the third. I care little for the later seasons on re-watch.
However, just dipping into season four of late, I am struck by how Riley truly lights up the season.
Clearly, the season has a much "brighter" overall feel and look to the preceding seasons, and while this may not totally be a positive, in Riley's case it really is.
He shines bright in the early parts of the season and in my opinion is a big plus point for what was the new Buffy "dynamic" of season four.
What are your opinions of how Riley fits in, and how he contributes to season four, and the latter seasons until his departure?
The character was badly written. He's the right hand man of the head of the Initiative yet has no idea as to its purpose!!! Common
He had no chemistry with the lead which given he's her love interest with lots of screen time is a huge problem. Even more so when Riley clearly had chemistry with Willow and which the writers were even aware off.
He was the writer/nerd fantasy of there ideal cool guy but really he was just bland and boring
The character was badly written. He's the right hand man of the head of the Initiative yet has no idea as to its purpose!!! Common
He had no chemistry with the lead which given he's her love interest with lots of screen time is a huge problem. Even more so when Riley clearly had chemistry with Willow and which the writers were even aware off.
He was the writer/nerd fantasy of there ideal cool guy but really he was just bland and boring
He's one of top members of the team in the Initiative, but it just showed that Riley saw things in black & white, until Buffy opened his eyes.
Yes, I'm one of the few on Team Riley. Never understood the hate for him - and in s5 they performed a nice bit of character assassination with the whole 'seeking out vamps to be bitten' thing.
Generally, putting Buffy with a serious boyfriend in her freshman year of college may have made sense a generation earlier, but I don't think that was a priority for college freshman in 1999. I think if they had done with what Amy Polher called "her Rumspringa," and they used it to audition a long term boyfriend for Season 5, it may have played out better. But, pretty good chance Riley was a network idea
Generally, putting Buffy with a serious boyfriend in her freshman year of college may have made sense a generation earlier, but I don't think that was a priority for college freshman in 1999. I think if they had done with what Amy Polher called "her Rumspringa," and they used it to audition a long term boyfriend for Season 5, it may have played out better. But, pretty good chance Riley was a network idea
Ick.
Seriously still don't understand what the writers were thinking with that one...
NotASlayerI am pretty sure they were catering to the Spuffy fans who thought that Spike was the best boyfriend material, ever. And not a really good reason to be gay. Never mind that Buffy "needing a man" was opposite to what the series was supposed to be.
And for good reason. Buffy's ratings and pop culture impact were never higher than when Bangel was it. I remember my sister cutting off the cover of the weekly television directory and hanging it in her room, that's how big it was. The show was a big deal, and the network wanted those years back.
And for good reason. Buffy's ratings and pop culture impact were never higher than when Bangel was it. I remember my sister cutting off the cover of the weekly television directory and hanging it in her room, that's how big it was. The show was a big deal, and the network wanted those years back.
And given it was a series geared towards younger audiences, you can understand why.
Even though I started watching from s5 when it was airing, I'd recall seeing a couple of magazines with small articles discussing Buffy & Angel and their relationship.
NotASlayer I am pretty sure they were catering to the Spuffy fans who thought that Spike was the best boyfriend material, ever. And not a really good reason to be gay. Never mind that Buffy "needing a man" was opposite to what the series was supposed to be.
Generally, putting Buffy with a serious boyfriend in her freshman year of college may have made sense a generation earlier, but I don't think that was a priority for college freshman in 1999. I think if they had done with what Amy Polher called "her Rumspringa," and they used it to audition a long term boyfriend for Season 5, it may have played out better. But, pretty good chance Riley was a network idea
Buffy's aware she is potentially on a short timer. Everything she does has to be done with the knowledge there may not be a tomorrow. If shevwants a serious relationship, and all signs say she does, she doesn't have time to play
Generally, putting Buffy with a serious boyfriend in her freshman year of college may have made sense a generation earlier, but I don't think that was a priority for college freshman in 1999. I think if they had done with what Amy Polher called "her Rumspringa," and they used it to audition a long term boyfriend for Season 5, it may have played out better. But, pretty good chance Riley was a network idea
Quite the opposite he was a Joss idea. All the writers loved Riley. Ever listen to a DVD Commentary Doug Petrie is practically in love with the character while Joss was crushed he couldn't write his and Buffy's first sex scene.
Hell it was the Network that forced him off the show due to low ratings. Whedon himself couldn't handle it and labelled all fans who didn't like B/R people who didn't want to see Buffy happy
I liked him to a point. I actually reckoned Goodbye Iowa was a high point for the actor, his portrayal of Riley’s mental crumbling as his world collapsed was one of the darkest moments of a quirky, almost surreal season at times. Riley’s masculine crisis may not have been everyone’s favourite storyline but many men would have related to it more than the Angel/Spike arcs - his desperate faith in Buffy, even as her greater strength emasculated him, was touching and ultimately his downfall.
His comeback in s6 was little more than a ‘Spuffy’ plot point, however, and he seemed very dull with a wife!
The character was badly written. He's the right hand man of the head of the Initiative yet has no idea as to its purpose!!! Common
He had no chemistry with the lead which given he's her love interest with lots of screen time is a huge problem. Even more so when Riley clearly had chemistry with Willow and which the writers were even aware off.
He was the writer/nerd fantasy of there ideal cool guy but really he was just bland and boring
As shown, Dr Angleman was Dr Walsh's right hand man. I don't think Riley was any higher than commander of the Commando Hunter-Killer teams. And, there were all the guys in black who seemed to watch and control the Commandos when they were in the bunker.
I thought Riley had good chemistry with Buffy. I thought their mating dance was funny and cute and well done. I don't hold Marc Blucas' deficiencies as an actor against Riley. It was his first real acting job.
I know a few writer/nerds. Riley is the "nice guy" jock that beat them up in high school. Their fantasy is that someone who is actually like them would attract a girl like Sarah Michelle Gellar.
I think early Riley was great. The problem was Whedon & Co wanting Buffy's relationships to go to hell because Whedon enjoyed women in pain. I think the way Riley was written off the show was bogus. Once again Buffy's pain (shown by the 'run to the helicopter') was paramount.
Generally, putting Buffy with a serious boyfriend in her freshman year of college may have made sense a generation earlier, but I don't think that was a priority for college freshman in 1999. I think if they had done with what Amy Polher called "her Rumspringa," and they used it to audition a long term boyfriend for Season 5, it may have played out better. But, pretty good chance Riley was a network idea
And for good reason. Buffy's ratings and pop culture impact were never higher than when Bangel was it. I remember my sister cutting off the cover of the weekly television directory and hanging it in her room, that's how big it was. The show was a big deal, and the network wanted those years back.
Spuffy was a direct attempt to recapture the Ratings of the Bangel seasons.
Also, an attempt to get ratings that would justify UPN paying more than double what WB paid for Buffy.
WB paid about $125 million for 100 eps.
UPN paid about $105 million for 44 eps.
Spuffy was a direct attempt to recapture the Ratings of the Bangel seasons.
Also, an attempt to get ratings that would justify UPN paying more than double what WB paid for Buffy.
WB paid about $125 million for 100 eps.
UPN paid about $105 million for 44 eps.
Good for the actors, though, I think. In money terms, anyway. Though S6 showed that money is not enough, given 3/5 of the main female actors, including the female lead, either quit or refused to come back. Not a good look for a show that is supposed to be about a strong female character.
Did anyone notice that he was supposed to be a member of an elite squad and barely looked like he had seen any action? He was too young for that part. Grizzled elite squad members look like they have seen it all and when they recall to mind things they have done, they have that thousand-yard stare. He and his squad also seemed to be written like frat boys rather than a self-disciplined group of elite soldiers.
And did you notice that he seems to fail at everything we see him do, at least in Season 4? He was badly written and badly acted and that doesn't light up anything.
Now we get in to the results of Joss Whedon's anti-military pacifism. He sees little to no use for the military so he sees no need to portray the military accurately.
I think he should have had a girlfriend when we first met him. I think wanting someone you can't have because they are already taken is more part of the college experience, and something Buffy has never experienced. Then she can get "fridged" by Veruca. Then Riley has a reason to hate werewolves. Then they can recover together. That works better that than two attractive white heterosexual people, or whatever that Community joke was, I was too busy taking National Review's kissing test.
Why do you always have better story ideas than Whedon?
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NotASlayerIt is curious that an anti-military pacifist with little use for the military would decide to have the finale be a military-style battle. And may explain why it was such an unmitigated disaster of an episode that needed a deus ex machina to fix it.
When I first watched Season 4, I thought it wasn't as good as the preceding ones, and I thought it odd how Angel, who was built up over the entire show at that point to be the one and only "true love" for Buffy, was out of the picture like that, and overnight now there's a new guy who she's similarly in love with? Even the writers had a go at how quickly she moved on when they brought back Faith and had her remark on that.
On re-watch, however, the difference is far smaller than I originally imagined it. Season 4 is mostly still very good. Okay Adam might be slightly cheesier as a villain, but still a Frankenstein's monster is not at all out of place in the horrorverse of Buffy.
I found it difficult to give Riley a chance the first time, because honestly, who could hope to replace Angel? It would be impossible shoes for anybody to fill. But on re-watch after I already knew I liked Riley and he had won me over, I better appreciated him. Good actor and nice character.
The problem was Whedon & Co wanting Buffy's relationships to go to hell because Whedon enjoyed women in pain. I think the way Riley was written off the show was bogus. Once again Buffy's pain (shown by the 'run to the helicopter') was paramount.
Well also because it's a WB show about teen drama. Relationships can't be hunky dory because otherwise there would be no soapy drama for the actors to display their histrionics over. Not because Whedon is some kind of a sadist. As soon as a couple are actually in a committed relationship and happy together, there's nothing left for the characters to do, which gets boring. All good tv and movie writers know that the sweet spot is in the hinting at a potential of a relationship, and the tension leading up to it. The chase, as they say, is better than the catch.
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NotASlayerSeason 4's arc may not be the best - but it is nowhere near as bad as 6&7's - but the episodes are, for the most part, good to very good.
When I first watched Season 4, I thought it wasn't as good as the preceding ones, and I thought it odd how Angel, who was built up over the entire show at that point to be the one and only "true love" for Buffy, was out of the picture like that, and overnight now there's a new guy who she's similarly in love with? Even the writers had a go at how quickly she moved on when they brought back Faith and had her remark on that.
On re-watch, however, the difference is far smaller than I originally imagined it. Season 4 is mostly still very good. Okay Adam might be slightly cheesier as a villain, but still a Frankenstein's monster is not at all out of place in the horrorverse of Buffy.
I found it difficult to give Riley a chance the first time, because honestly, who could hope to replace Angel? It would be impossible shoes for anybody to fill. But on re-watch after I already knew I liked Riley and he had won me over, I better appreciated him. Good actor and nice character.
So I think Riley's a bit underrated actually.
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Well also because it's a WB show about teen drama. Relationships can't be hunky dory because otherwise there would be no soapy drama for the actors to display their histrionics over. Not because Whedon is some kind of a sadist. As soon as a couple are actually in a committed relationship and happy together, there's nothing left for the characters to do, which gets boring. All good tv and movie writers know that the sweet spot is in the hinting at a potential of a relationship, and the tension leading up to it. The chase, as they say, is better than the catch.
That may be a popular sentiment among writers, but there were a number of shows like MacMillan and Wife where domestic needs were written into the story in a way that the writers in Buffy could not comprehend. Committed relationships are almost never smooth sailing and you run into situations that do not happen with boyfriend or girlfriend. There are a lot more sweet spots in writing couples, such as money woes, bedroom woes and basic compatibility.
Re: Writers; The way I understand it, Television writers prior to the 1980s generally had a life prior to television, were mostly writers of some other kind who got an "in", and read a lot more books growing up. After the 1980s, it switched to college kids who went to college to write and then got jobs based on their social connections, and didn't have the life experience or literary intake their predecessors did. For things like Buffy or Friends, they hired young to connect to a young audience, but it would have left them without the actual life experience to portray an interesting relationship.
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