Romance?
- Thread starter Cohen
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Joan the Vampire Slayer
Carpe Spuffy!
NileQT87
Billowy Coat, King of Pain
@NoShip wrote me a PM about my post regarding drafts and shooting dates... I thought I'd put it here, because it's an interesting bit of history regarding the production of BtVS season 1.
...
I know Witch was definitely the first episode shot. Welcome to the Hellmouth/The Harvest, I think, were next. But many of the scripts written first were Monsters of the Week very light on continuous plot that had a few scenes of Angel dropped in as bookends or just dialog references in later rewrites.
Casting began in 1995. We know that. The writing of the unaired pilot is dated January 1996. Pilot season is usually around spring. The first season started filming around fall 1996 and there are drafts dated back to August 1996. The first season was pretty much all shot before it ever aired, so the decisions weren't made because of audience reactions as it aired.
Many shows will film what is felt to be a more inconsequential MotW first where the main cast can build chemistry together, so that when they film the first episode(s), it feels more established with any portrayal kinks worked out. Off the top of my head, I can think of Romana II being tweaked a bit in Tom Baker's era of Doctor Who from the first serial shot (where Lalla Ward plays Romana much more like Mary Tamm's Romana I, even down to the costuming choice) vs. the first one aired.
And Witch (dated October 1996) probably benefited from some of those kinks and chemistry having already been worked out from filming the unaired pilot first. By the time of Welcome to the Hellmouth (dated September 1996--written first but filmed later), there's no doubt that Angel had moved up to romantic lead over Xander, no matter their screen time, despite the very opposite being apparent in the unaired pilot where Joss Whedon chose to cut Angel out of his cut-down presentation with Xander being portrayed more viably as a love interest.
Another thing that shows in the alterations is Darla being kept alive (rather than killed by Willow's holy water) and her wardrobe changed to something revealed later as a jealous mockery of Angel following Buffy around and planting a dead body in a locker to scare her off on her first day at school, despite not knowing she was the Slayer. What was essentially a throwaway unnamed vampire (Julie Benz was the test dummy for The Lost Boys-inspired prosthetics) turned into the love interest's sire backstory and was kept on for a few extra episodes as the Master's henchman.
The script that was easily the most rewritten was Never Kill a Boy on the First Date (dated August 1996). Owen has a whole different name and the end scenes take place at a bowling alley instead of the mortuary, never mind all the paralleling of Angel, Owen and Xander as potential love interests. Owen was basically rewritten to be an age and species-appropriate version of Angel down to him liking antique watches and historical poetry (yet more hints that Angel is a vampire even beyond the "Bite me" exchange), which was also contrasted with Xander's juvenile Tweety watch and trying to catch a glimpse of Buffy undressing (which becomes paralleled in 1x07 and Surprise where Angel explicitly has his back turned). But then you have Angel and Owen contrasted when one is focused on Buffy's duties as a Slayer instead of it being a social call, while Owen is portrayed as reckless and liable to get himself killed. Xander and Willow end up supporting Angel in being the voices of duty and responsibility, which contrast them to Owen and why Buffy can allow them to be in on her secret identity. Giles' speech at the end, of course, completes this theme. None of this was really in the early MotW draft.
The Pack (dated September 1996) is more similar to the final product, but with very key additions of Willow and Buffy's dialog at the Bronze about Angel and hyena!Xander's use of Xander's own jealousy over Angel (note that Xander did not have the excuse yet of knowing he was a vampire and it had nothing to do with what happened to Jesse!) in his cruel words to Buffy. Buffy is also wearing Angel's jacket in this episode and it's a very pointed costuming decision. It also adds to the cruelty of what hyena!Xander says to Willow, Xander's own interest in Buffy (perverted into a rape attempt) and his jealousy of Angel that leads into Prophecy Girl. While Angel is not in the episode, the few added references to him and the presence of his various costuming gifts to Buffy from earlier episodes end up having a lot of impact.
David Greenwalt's Teacher's Pet (dated October 1996) is one of the few early drafts of a MotW script where the Angel bookends were there from the start and not merely dropped in later. It's telling that he was pulling for the character to explicitly be Buffy's romantic interest instead of just a messenger months before he wrote the script where it became official. 1x07 (dated all the way to January 1997!) was comparatively written quite late, along with the penultimate episode and the finale it led into (also both January 1997!). Nightmares is another from January 1997, which, although without Angel's presence, is all about setting up Buffy's fears of death at the hands of the Master and being turned into a vampire. These mythology-heavy episodes were the last episodes written and shot. These episodes would've filmed very close to the airing of the first episodes.
It's a good example of how having draft scripts for most of the season will allow for connecting elements to be dropped into the final drafts for even the episodes that aren't arc heavy.
...
I know Witch was definitely the first episode shot. Welcome to the Hellmouth/The Harvest, I think, were next. But many of the scripts written first were Monsters of the Week very light on continuous plot that had a few scenes of Angel dropped in as bookends or just dialog references in later rewrites.
Casting began in 1995. We know that. The writing of the unaired pilot is dated January 1996. Pilot season is usually around spring. The first season started filming around fall 1996 and there are drafts dated back to August 1996. The first season was pretty much all shot before it ever aired, so the decisions weren't made because of audience reactions as it aired.
Many shows will film what is felt to be a more inconsequential MotW first where the main cast can build chemistry together, so that when they film the first episode(s), it feels more established with any portrayal kinks worked out. Off the top of my head, I can think of Romana II being tweaked a bit in Tom Baker's era of Doctor Who from the first serial shot (where Lalla Ward plays Romana much more like Mary Tamm's Romana I, even down to the costuming choice) vs. the first one aired.
And Witch (dated October 1996) probably benefited from some of those kinks and chemistry having already been worked out from filming the unaired pilot first. By the time of Welcome to the Hellmouth (dated September 1996--written first but filmed later), there's no doubt that Angel had moved up to romantic lead over Xander, no matter their screen time, despite the very opposite being apparent in the unaired pilot where Joss Whedon chose to cut Angel out of his cut-down presentation with Xander being portrayed more viably as a love interest.
Another thing that shows in the alterations is Darla being kept alive (rather than killed by Willow's holy water) and her wardrobe changed to something revealed later as a jealous mockery of Angel following Buffy around and planting a dead body in a locker to scare her off on her first day at school, despite not knowing she was the Slayer. What was essentially a throwaway unnamed vampire (Julie Benz was the test dummy for The Lost Boys-inspired prosthetics) turned into the love interest's sire backstory and was kept on for a few extra episodes as the Master's henchman.
The script that was easily the most rewritten was Never Kill a Boy on the First Date (dated August 1996). Owen has a whole different name and the end scenes take place at a bowling alley instead of the mortuary, never mind all the paralleling of Angel, Owen and Xander as potential love interests. Owen was basically rewritten to be an age and species-appropriate version of Angel down to him liking antique watches and historical poetry (yet more hints that Angel is a vampire even beyond the "Bite me" exchange), which was also contrasted with Xander's juvenile Tweety watch and trying to catch a glimpse of Buffy undressing (which becomes paralleled in 1x07 and Surprise where Angel explicitly has his back turned). But then you have Angel and Owen contrasted when one is focused on Buffy's duties as a Slayer instead of it being a social call, while Owen is portrayed as reckless and liable to get himself killed. Xander and Willow end up supporting Angel in being the voices of duty and responsibility, which contrast them to Owen and why Buffy can allow them to be in on her secret identity. Giles' speech at the end, of course, completes this theme. None of this was really in the early MotW draft.
The Pack (dated September 1996) is more similar to the final product, but with very key additions of Willow and Buffy's dialog at the Bronze about Angel and hyena!Xander's use of Xander's own jealousy over Angel (note that Xander did not have the excuse yet of knowing he was a vampire and it had nothing to do with what happened to Jesse!) in his cruel words to Buffy. Buffy is also wearing Angel's jacket in this episode and it's a very pointed costuming decision. It also adds to the cruelty of what hyena!Xander says to Willow, Xander's own interest in Buffy (perverted into a rape attempt) and his jealousy of Angel that leads into Prophecy Girl. While Angel is not in the episode, the few added references to him and the presence of his various costuming gifts to Buffy from earlier episodes end up having a lot of impact.
David Greenwalt's Teacher's Pet (dated October 1996) is one of the few early drafts of a MotW script where the Angel bookends were there from the start and not merely dropped in later. It's telling that he was pulling for the character to explicitly be Buffy's romantic interest instead of just a messenger months before he wrote the script where it became official. 1x07 (dated all the way to January 1997!) was comparatively written quite late, along with the penultimate episode and the finale it led into (also both January 1997!). Nightmares is another from January 1997, which, although without Angel's presence, is all about setting up Buffy's fears of death at the hands of the Master and being turned into a vampire. These mythology-heavy episodes were the last episodes written and shot. These episodes would've filmed very close to the airing of the first episodes.
It's a good example of how having draft scripts for most of the season will allow for connecting elements to be dropped into the final drafts for even the episodes that aren't arc heavy.
NotASlayer
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In other words, a show benefits from having some sort of plan up ahead, like Buffy S1-5 and Babylon 5, rather than trying to make it up as you go along, like Buffy 6&7 or The X-Files' conspiracy arcs (the latter has a trope named after the creator The Chris Carter Effect - TV Tropes).
Do we want to see vampire romance again, like we did with Spike and Drusilla, or Amgelus and Darla?
Do we need to see vampires as more than monsters?
Do we need to see vampires as more than monsters?
NotASlayer
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I am in two minds about this. I did like Spike and Dru, and Angelus and Darla were interesting in the flashbacks, but there are problems with making the creatures who are monsters, and always monsters, into something else as well. If you did have a vampire romance, you would need to make it monstrous to avoid sexyifying the monsters too much.
The Buffyverse vampires are monsters, and it should always be clear that they are. Unlike the demons, which can be much more variable, though rarely look as pretty.
The Buffyverse vampires are monsters, and it should always be clear that they are. Unlike the demons, which can be much more variable, though rarely look as pretty.
NileQT87
Billowy Coat, King of Pain
I think we do run the risk of a third vampire with a soul if we go there. It would have to somehow be very different.
Adding too many not only dilutes the uniqueness and loneliness of that original ensouled vampire (not unlike how introducing Kendra and Faith likewise crashed Buffy's Chosen One status), but also calls into question the morality of slaying vampires when you could instead pass out souls like candy. This is a fate that should be considered cruel, not a gift.
Vampirism is damnation, not a gift. This is something Angel was adamant about. Putting a human back into their demon-inhabited corpse is damning the soul right along with the monster. And when you're dealing with a mythology in which vampirism is more Invasion of the Body Snatchers than living forever, it's not a kind existence for the poor sod that gets stuffed back into their corpse without any choice. It's only afterwards that the human can decide if they want to wallow for eternity doing nothing or make the best of the bad hand they've been dealt by helping using abilities they only have because of a murderous demon--the very demon that is also keeping them from turning to dust.
But at the same time, I think it would be so tempting for the writers to want to create a new group of vampire characters--ones where they don't have to de-age a bunch of actors in their 50s-60s for flashbacks. They know what sells and what the franchise is known for.
They're probably not going to be able to outdo the original Fanged Four (I say this as someone who considers their flashbacks some of my favorite scenes of the whole 'verse) and they'd run the risk of making a poor man's copycats.
That actually might be an argument for including Shanshu'd versions of Angel and/or Spike. That would allow them to have their cake and eat it, too. It would allow them to depict that original gray area in a sea of black and white that bringing in the vampire with a soul (our first good monster!) acted as, but not have to retread the same storylines.
For example, if the new Slayer was brought in, having all these dreams of vampires killing Slayers (perfect place to include Spike, not unlike his affect on Dana) and slaying things that go bump in the night, only to find out that her mentor figure is the Slayer known for romancing the undead (two of the very worst from all history), I think having them present for her to meet in the flesh despite being older and human now might actually work as part of her character discovery, teaching her that it's not always as simple as slaying things that aren't human.
And that could lead into perhaps having friends or a lover who aren't all humans either.
Adding too many not only dilutes the uniqueness and loneliness of that original ensouled vampire (not unlike how introducing Kendra and Faith likewise crashed Buffy's Chosen One status), but also calls into question the morality of slaying vampires when you could instead pass out souls like candy. This is a fate that should be considered cruel, not a gift.
Vampirism is damnation, not a gift. This is something Angel was adamant about. Putting a human back into their demon-inhabited corpse is damning the soul right along with the monster. And when you're dealing with a mythology in which vampirism is more Invasion of the Body Snatchers than living forever, it's not a kind existence for the poor sod that gets stuffed back into their corpse without any choice. It's only afterwards that the human can decide if they want to wallow for eternity doing nothing or make the best of the bad hand they've been dealt by helping using abilities they only have because of a murderous demon--the very demon that is also keeping them from turning to dust.
But at the same time, I think it would be so tempting for the writers to want to create a new group of vampire characters--ones where they don't have to de-age a bunch of actors in their 50s-60s for flashbacks. They know what sells and what the franchise is known for.
They're probably not going to be able to outdo the original Fanged Four (I say this as someone who considers their flashbacks some of my favorite scenes of the whole 'verse) and they'd run the risk of making a poor man's copycats.
That actually might be an argument for including Shanshu'd versions of Angel and/or Spike. That would allow them to have their cake and eat it, too. It would allow them to depict that original gray area in a sea of black and white that bringing in the vampire with a soul (our first good monster!) acted as, but not have to retread the same storylines.
For example, if the new Slayer was brought in, having all these dreams of vampires killing Slayers (perfect place to include Spike, not unlike his affect on Dana) and slaying things that go bump in the night, only to find out that her mentor figure is the Slayer known for romancing the undead (two of the very worst from all history), I think having them present for her to meet in the flesh despite being older and human now might actually work as part of her character discovery, teaching her that it's not always as simple as slaying things that aren't human.
And that could lead into perhaps having friends or a lover who aren't all humans either.
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AlphaFoxtrot
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Eh, I would not be opposed to revising how vampires work, provided it's better than the original idea, doesn't get overly complicated, and still hews close to traditional concepts. Like, the comic changes need to be chalked up to syphilis.
However, Human Vampire romances have been done to death. Entire series have just been made on that concept alone. Who wants to live forever in a world without love? I don't think anyone has anything new to say on the subject.
Furthermore, the central problem of Telefantasy is that women aren't interested in romances between super powered girls and physically inferior men not named Bruce Wayne or Steve Trevor. Buffy kind of created this problem, so maybe Buffy could find a solution. Lesbians or Monster boys can't be the only solution.
However, Human Vampire romances have been done to death. Entire series have just been made on that concept alone. Who wants to live forever in a world without love? I don't think anyone has anything new to say on the subject.
Furthermore, the central problem of Telefantasy is that women aren't interested in romances between super powered girls and physically inferior men not named Bruce Wayne or Steve Trevor. Buffy kind of created this problem, so maybe Buffy could find a solution. Lesbians or Monster boys can't be the only solution.
NileQT87
Alas, it's an equality problem in the world of superheroes unless the unequal power levels have someone with the strength of personality like a Lois Lane. Riley and Xander were not that. Angel was particularly a superhero in his own right.
NotASlayer
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I have never really been a fan of vampire-human romances at the best of times, and the walking corpses that Buffyverse vampires are would definitely need changing to be remotely plausible.
But for vampires in general, do you really want to have a romance with something that wants to eat you? That just regards you as something that should be eaten?
But for vampires in general, do you really want to have a romance with something that wants to eat you? That just regards you as something that should be eaten?
NileQT87
The soul is the original human with both memories and therein lies the difference. Soulless, it's lust with a remorseless demon. Other demons are more variable with understanding right and wrong.
NotASlayer
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@NileQT87 A walking corpse with a soul is still a walking corpse. Adding a soul does not change the physical nature of the body.
EDIT: It will still look and feel like a walking corpse.
EDIT: It will still look and feel like a walking corpse.
NileQT87
Sentience is what makes it different from necrophilia.
T
thrasherpix
I'm actually "blah" when I see Buffy kiss Angel as I imagine the dried blood in his mouth, must be awful! Spike's mouth would be a filthy ashtray on top of that. Just one more reason for me not to like her vampire romances.
NotASlayer
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@thrasherpix Oh, yes, yuck, I had not even considered Spike's smoking. Yeah, if you kiss someone who smokes and you do not and never have, it is not pleasant.
Oh, and if you do smoke and think that chewing gum after a cigarette will make it any more pleasant for the non-smoker you are kissing? It does not.
Oh, and if you do smoke and think that chewing gum after a cigarette will make it any more pleasant for the non-smoker you are kissing? It does not.
NileQT87
Billowy Coat, King of Pain
I actually completely disagree with the notion that the vampire would feel like a corpse.
Setting aside that the whole idea behind necrophilia, which is under the paraphilia umbrella, is that the person desires control over a non-resisting partner lacking in sentience with no ability to reject them... Which does not describe a vampire in any way, soul or not...
When people talk about how corpses look and feel, what they're describing are aspects of the decomposition process such as rigor mortis, gaseous bloating, discoloration, desiccation, etc... None of which would apply to a body that is kept magically (due to a parasitic demon essentially acting as a body-snatcher that converts the host into its own species) from doing any of these things, in spite of being room temperature, having no breath and lacking a heartbeat (external tells that are very different from a full-body dissection needed for the internal differences).
Temperature and pulse aside, a vampire's skin would feel and look normal/healthy, even if pale in a lack of sunlight sort of way. And even then, the Buffyverse vampires aren't usually pronounced in their paleness. A recent meal would also give them a more lively flush in contrast to prolonged starvation (they're certainly more durable than humans in how long they can survive without, albeit with affects on their mental faculties). Given their temperature, vampires probably wouldn't produce sweat and body odor as quickly.
Vampires are more comparable to romancing a humanoid alien with different internal biology and a few minor tells like temperature (I pointed out that this also applies to Spock, whose blood is additionally green and yet is himself the result of an interspecies union, and the Doctor, who is quite famous for having two hearts) or another such creature than they are a corpse, despite their bodies having been converted into a different species from a human host they killed in the process. Though the soul is essentially putting that human back in the driver's seat, which really makes an ensouled vampire a complete human sentience in a non-human body they're reliant on the demon to keep alive.
To give another example of a body-snatcher mythology, the demons and angels in Supernatural likewise could be accused of walking around in corpse meatsuits. And given that Castiel got Jimmy Novak's body atomized twice, he was quite alone in that corpse for most of the show. Still a sentient being, albeit an inhuman one (so inhuman as to be described as eldritch--a multidimensional wavelength of celestial intent the size of the Chrysler Building).
As for hygiene, that's really a choice on the vampire's part. Breath for a human or vampire who has eaten something pungent or smokes would be just as different from those who brush, floss and use mouthwash. Not to mention baths, wearing perfume or cologne, grooming, etc...
It's as ridiculous as comparing Angel's smell during the time he was feeding on rats as a homeless bum to the era where he was taking steamy, hot showers and being quite self-conscious about fitting in amongst humans. It took him a long time to even be comfortable feeding around humans and was self-conscious about being touched or hugged in game face by those who love him and weren't seeing a monster when they did so. With Spike, the smoking, alcohol and crypt would probably register faster than his last meal. Spike was never quite as self-conscious about public feeding either. Well, we have proof that Harmony thought to brush both sets of teeth!
All of those variables regarding hygeine are present in regular humans.
And on a comical note, given that the first kiss in 1x07 (no, it wasn't every kiss) between David Boreanaz and Sarah Michelle Gellar famously involved a gross-out contest with foods like tuna and pickles beforehand and the kiss involved tongue (which we now see with the lights on)... LOL.
Setting aside that the whole idea behind necrophilia, which is under the paraphilia umbrella, is that the person desires control over a non-resisting partner lacking in sentience with no ability to reject them... Which does not describe a vampire in any way, soul or not...
When people talk about how corpses look and feel, what they're describing are aspects of the decomposition process such as rigor mortis, gaseous bloating, discoloration, desiccation, etc... None of which would apply to a body that is kept magically (due to a parasitic demon essentially acting as a body-snatcher that converts the host into its own species) from doing any of these things, in spite of being room temperature, having no breath and lacking a heartbeat (external tells that are very different from a full-body dissection needed for the internal differences).
Temperature and pulse aside, a vampire's skin would feel and look normal/healthy, even if pale in a lack of sunlight sort of way. And even then, the Buffyverse vampires aren't usually pronounced in their paleness. A recent meal would also give them a more lively flush in contrast to prolonged starvation (they're certainly more durable than humans in how long they can survive without, albeit with affects on their mental faculties). Given their temperature, vampires probably wouldn't produce sweat and body odor as quickly.
Vampires are more comparable to romancing a humanoid alien with different internal biology and a few minor tells like temperature (I pointed out that this also applies to Spock, whose blood is additionally green and yet is himself the result of an interspecies union, and the Doctor, who is quite famous for having two hearts) or another such creature than they are a corpse, despite their bodies having been converted into a different species from a human host they killed in the process. Though the soul is essentially putting that human back in the driver's seat, which really makes an ensouled vampire a complete human sentience in a non-human body they're reliant on the demon to keep alive.
To give another example of a body-snatcher mythology, the demons and angels in Supernatural likewise could be accused of walking around in corpse meatsuits. And given that Castiel got Jimmy Novak's body atomized twice, he was quite alone in that corpse for most of the show. Still a sentient being, albeit an inhuman one (so inhuman as to be described as eldritch--a multidimensional wavelength of celestial intent the size of the Chrysler Building).
As for hygiene, that's really a choice on the vampire's part. Breath for a human or vampire who has eaten something pungent or smokes would be just as different from those who brush, floss and use mouthwash. Not to mention baths, wearing perfume or cologne, grooming, etc...
It's as ridiculous as comparing Angel's smell during the time he was feeding on rats as a homeless bum to the era where he was taking steamy, hot showers and being quite self-conscious about fitting in amongst humans. It took him a long time to even be comfortable feeding around humans and was self-conscious about being touched or hugged in game face by those who love him and weren't seeing a monster when they did so. With Spike, the smoking, alcohol and crypt would probably register faster than his last meal. Spike was never quite as self-conscious about public feeding either. Well, we have proof that Harmony thought to brush both sets of teeth!
All of those variables regarding hygeine are present in regular humans.
And on a comical note, given that the first kiss in 1x07 (no, it wasn't every kiss) between David Boreanaz and Sarah Michelle Gellar famously involved a gross-out contest with foods like tuna and pickles beforehand and the kiss involved tongue (which we now see with the lights on)... LOL.
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NotASlayer
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Which is why I stated walking corpse. It would not be like a corpse, and it would most likely gross out necrophiles who would not want a partner who is moving around. Zombiephilia would be closer, but that involves a walking, (usually) rotting corpse.
The skin would not look and feel completely normal. It lacks blood flow and would be pallid. It would not feel like touching skin, because it lacks the warmth and pulse of a living body.
The vampire would look like a living person to a degree, but lack many of the physiological properties of a living body. It would be the uncanny valley to the nth degree; something that looks human, but very definitely is not. A body that should not be moving around and yet is. It is not as if the vampires are alien; they are in fact too close to human. A body that instincts insist is dead because it lacks the signs of life, yet is still moving.
Other universes' vampires are better designed to be love interests, as they can mimic the signs of life - body temperature, pulse, skin colour - and may also be able to charm their prey so that they can hunt better, which makes them more plausible as love interests. The super-zombie brute-strength hunters that are Buffyverse vampires were never designed to be love interests.
To compare the three kinds of Dresden Files vampires. White Court vampires are pretty and feed through sex. They are designed to seduce their prey and appear like very pretty humans. The Red Court vampires are monsters wearing flesh suits to hide their monstrousness and have addictive narcotic saliva that also ensures their prey remains willing. The Black Court vampires are the closest to the Buffyverse vampires, and are dead bodies that are up and walking around. They hunt through pure violence.
NileQT87
Joss Whedon didn't get his wish. His intent got thrown out by David Greenwalt and others adding massively to the mythology by making vampires romanticized, even if only one at first. The demon conversion basically gives them a new internal anatomy.
hoponlilmama
Scooby
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Not sure I agree with that. Maybe it might feel better immediately after feeding.
Do vamps sweat? Don't think so, unless under extreme circumstances (like Angel being hit with a poisoned arrow).
NotASlayer
Vampires in other 'verses can pass for normal after feeding because they have circulation. Buffyverse vampires lack that ability.
I think the issue is the fact that vampires are completely magical creations and Whedon and Co make no attempt to explain the magics. So, whatever you want a vampire to be, that is what they are.
Also, as presented, the main vampires appear as healthy, virile, funny, 20-something men and women. The cannon fodder are much less desirable, but, no vampire presents as a corpse, walking or otherwise.
As for the creativity. The Entertainment Industry [always a business never an art] follows the Golden Rule - money talks and bs walks. So Whedon never had as much creative control as his contract stated. 20th and WB didn't hesitate to make changes when they thought it in their financial interest. [Hot vampire lovers]
One of the biggest forced changes was that Whedon accept an experienced showrunner from among 20th's candidates as his deputy. That's how David Greenwalt joined Buffy.
Also, as presented, the main vampires appear as healthy, virile, funny, 20-something men and women. The cannon fodder are much less desirable, but, no vampire presents as a corpse, walking or otherwise.
As for the creativity. The Entertainment Industry [always a business never an art] follows the Golden Rule - money talks and bs walks. So Whedon never had as much creative control as his contract stated. 20th and WB didn't hesitate to make changes when they thought it in their financial interest. [Hot vampire lovers]
One of the biggest forced changes was that Whedon accept an experienced showrunner from among 20th's candidates as his deputy. That's how David Greenwalt joined Buffy.
Ethan Reigns
Scooby
Vampires may normally have no pulse, but Gwen Raiden managed to start a heartbeat by simply electrocuting Angel. I like heartwarming stories like that.
AlphaFoxtrot
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Yeah, there's no good answer is to why Vampires can do things that would require fuller life processes then what they are said to have. I would have to believe that Vamps have a glamour, one which can cover up their inhumanity to their prey, something that the Turok Han lack. Natural Selection would favor stealth, after all.
NotASlayer
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It is common for vampires to have the ability to glamour their victims in some way, shape of form, but this is also an ability that Buffyverse vampires show no evidence of having. The closest to this was Drusilla, who was able to hypnotise people, but this appeared to be an ability separate from her vampiric nature.
Vampires, being corpses inhabited by a possessing demon, also have no means of passing skills on to later vampires. Natural selection does not tend to work for the unnatural. Supposedly, modern vampires are effectively devolved from the Turok Han, rather than being a more evolved version.
hoponlilmama
I've read a fic or two where Spike had had the use of thrall. I watched True Blood and all vamps had the ability to 'glamour' someone.
AlphaFoxtrot
Scooby
- Joined
- Sep 11, 2017
- Messages
- 4,531
- Age
- 45
Well, Buffy vamps from day one has two faces, a human one and a demon one. That little trick is never explained, but it could be very well be a glamor hiding the true form. Ancient Vampires present themselves as not human, again, not explained.
Re: Selective Pressure: Vampires have both "biological" and cultural aspects. Let's say, the Demon Age was dimensionally closer to hell and had less sunlight. That would favor larger vampires who needed more energy to fight the Old One's wars. As Hell moved away from Earth, and the Sun shined longer, the Turok Han and Van Tel couldn't meet all of their energy needs, and couldn't reproduce fast enough, while smaller vampires, vampires created for infiltration, could. This would not be dissimilar to a place like modern India, where Tigers are in steep decline, but Leopards are living closer and closer to human habitation.
Culturally, think about how Vampires would have lived before and after Christianity. A Vampire Lord could live openly, could maintain a great court, could war against humans and demand tribute from them, could get involved in human politics even. Until some old man shows up with a cross and a bottle of Holy Water and a household blessing. That's a completely different world. If you can't adapt to that, you die out. (It's never really explained why Vampires can't enter personal residences, but the day before and after they couldn't would be a paradigm shift, no?) Henrich Joseph Nest, a religious fanatic who has set up shop in a abandoned graveyard to avoid contact with humans and only feeds on lepers and vagrants, when he leaves to feed at all, will survive, while the Great Lord will struggle to feed his minions, and will soon find his weakened diminished host under siege by crusaders. And eventually, Nest will find his way of life doesn't work either, and he and his minions will die.
As for the mechanism, the Vampires who listen to the racial memories contained within the blood and their sires instructions will live long lives, the ones who don't, will attract the attention of the Slayer or some other vampire hunter. Primates are very much dependent on parental care, learned behavior and groups for survival, I don't see why Vampires wouldn't take advantage of that.
Re: Selective Pressure: Vampires have both "biological" and cultural aspects. Let's say, the Demon Age was dimensionally closer to hell and had less sunlight. That would favor larger vampires who needed more energy to fight the Old One's wars. As Hell moved away from Earth, and the Sun shined longer, the Turok Han and Van Tel couldn't meet all of their energy needs, and couldn't reproduce fast enough, while smaller vampires, vampires created for infiltration, could. This would not be dissimilar to a place like modern India, where Tigers are in steep decline, but Leopards are living closer and closer to human habitation.
Culturally, think about how Vampires would have lived before and after Christianity. A Vampire Lord could live openly, could maintain a great court, could war against humans and demand tribute from them, could get involved in human politics even. Until some old man shows up with a cross and a bottle of Holy Water and a household blessing. That's a completely different world. If you can't adapt to that, you die out. (It's never really explained why Vampires can't enter personal residences, but the day before and after they couldn't would be a paradigm shift, no?) Henrich Joseph Nest, a religious fanatic who has set up shop in a abandoned graveyard to avoid contact with humans and only feeds on lepers and vagrants, when he leaves to feed at all, will survive, while the Great Lord will struggle to feed his minions, and will soon find his weakened diminished host under siege by crusaders. And eventually, Nest will find his way of life doesn't work either, and he and his minions will die.
As for the mechanism, the Vampires who listen to the racial memories contained within the blood and their sires instructions will live long lives, the ones who don't, will attract the attention of the Slayer or some other vampire hunter. Primates are very much dependent on parental care, learned behavior and groups for survival, I don't see why Vampires wouldn't take advantage of that.