Doesn't matter. The big problem is illegal guns, not legal ones. Banning all guns would not solve the problem.
Sad week in Orlando
- Thread starter HowiMetdaSlayer
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Doesn't matter. The big problem is illegal guns, not legal ones. Banning all guns would not solve the problem.
ILLYRIAN
Druish Pervonian Wizard
The news about the murderer gets updated daily. Did he like ISIS yes but he wasn't directed by ISIS. His parents were not guilty of helping him but they didn't not stop him hating the LGBT community. The chances are his religion promoted his ideas
Can the gun be blamed? Probably not as it is just bits of metal but what he used was an assault rifle, a weapon designed to be used in a war setting, a weapon of war not of the streets of America.
Comments have been used of this type of rifle being used for hunting, I thought the idea of hunting was to down the animal using one bullet so the head can be stuck on the wall or a rug made of its pelt. Having several holes put in it does not make for a good rug. How many hand guns have the same size and shape of bullet as that used in the assault rifle? How many bullets can be fired in each second by those assault rifles.
What type of person was he? He was a security guard and the legal owner of those weapons I doubt he was intelligent as he claimed to be if favour of three terrorist groups like ISIS, unfortunately two of those groups are against ISIS.
Can the authorities recognize when a terrorist attack is going to be made, yes but not always. But they have stopped many attacks. A problem happens when a guy legally buys a gun and doesn't tell anyone what he is going to do in the days or weeks prior to the attack. At least when a bomb is made sometimes the person is often noticed buying the certain items needed to make a bomb.
I am curious why does America allow weapons of war to be on the streets of America?
Buffy Summers: Banning all guns probably won't make the problem go away but if the assault weapons are banned I think a good start would be made.
Can the gun be blamed? Probably not as it is just bits of metal but what he used was an assault rifle, a weapon designed to be used in a war setting, a weapon of war not of the streets of America.
Comments have been used of this type of rifle being used for hunting, I thought the idea of hunting was to down the animal using one bullet so the head can be stuck on the wall or a rug made of its pelt. Having several holes put in it does not make for a good rug. How many hand guns have the same size and shape of bullet as that used in the assault rifle? How many bullets can be fired in each second by those assault rifles.
What type of person was he? He was a security guard and the legal owner of those weapons I doubt he was intelligent as he claimed to be if favour of three terrorist groups like ISIS, unfortunately two of those groups are against ISIS.
Can the authorities recognize when a terrorist attack is going to be made, yes but not always. But they have stopped many attacks. A problem happens when a guy legally buys a gun and doesn't tell anyone what he is going to do in the days or weeks prior to the attack. At least when a bomb is made sometimes the person is often noticed buying the certain items needed to make a bomb.
I am curious why does America allow weapons of war to be on the streets of America?
Buffy Summers: Banning all guns probably won't make the problem go away but if the assault weapons are banned I think a good start would be made.
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Monkey Pants
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This is such an awful tragedy, and I pray for all the families. I pray that things like this stop happening, and for that to happen precautions really need to be taken. People may say that the people, not the guns, are the problem, but there is no way to check every human on earth for sanity. Anything other than a hunting rifle should not be able to be purchased, legally or illegally. There is no reason that a normal civilian would need an assault rifle for any reason. Yes, everyone has rights, and if they have the right permits and really feel they need a gun to protect their property or hunt animals, then that is their right. But to own such a dangerous weapon that has the power to kill 50 people should never be allowed.
You actually can't just walk down the street with an assault rifle. But the types of weapons allowed to be owned (which is not the same as what are allowed to be carried around) is something that our Congress should definitely have a discussion about.
thrasherpix
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I just want to share a perspective, in part because I've had to do this with my partner a lot who is terrified of my family with all their guns. This isn't so much as intended to weigh in on the "Great American Gun Debate" (if the extreme rhetoric that dominates both sides can be called debate), but to give insight into people who see guns as something other than simply intended to kill others.
I was raised with guns (though no AR-15s--I did fire one when I was 17, however) and children on the farm were swiftly disciplined if we so much as looked like we were thinking of touching a gun without permission...much as we were about handling the propane ovens and heaters (and also when one little boy was hitting a propane tank as hard as he could with a hammer because he liked the noise it made 😱 ) and so they weren't seen as toys, and at least for me, it didn't even occur to me to touch one under normal circumstances, at least not on my own (and the couple of times I did, it didn't occur to me to use it, and I'd absorbed on how to safely handle them that I didn't harm myself or anyone else even then).
It became clear that guns were mostly about both hunting and varmint control (the farm also had some explosives that might be used for pest control, but mostly to handle things like certain tree roots and other nuisances), which protected livestock and crops, and helped to put food on the table (right along with the farming and fishing and even some foraging). While my grandmother (who had arthritis) did carry a gun with her when we went to the city just in case it was needed for self-defense, it was seen more as a way to deter violence rather than "punish the guilty" (and I personally know a handful of people of defended themselves with guns--and not a single shot was fired, rather they showed the gun and the attackers stopped, this typically being done immediately before or after calling the cops), which means guns can save lives as well as end them. It wasn't done in fear, either, it was "just in case." (One of the two times I touched one without permission was when Granny paid others to have the car cleaned on the inside while we were to do some shopping and had forgotten the handgun she had in the car, so I grabbed it secretly to give to her when we were alone...she was mortified at having forgotten it.)
As a result, they became ubiquitous, just part of the background, like the propane, butcher knives, vehicles, and boiling water--and just as most of you don't fear these other things, I didn't fear guns for the same reason (though I knew they had to be treated carefully, just like the propane gas did). Just as most of you expect others to use vehicles safely and responsibly (though all too many don't), I have the same expectation of having and using firearms. While specific people shouldn't have guns due to incompetence or poor impulse control, I'd say the same about cars, medicine, and many other things. If I didn't trust someone with a gun, then I wouldn't trust them with a knife, vehicle, or with boiling water.
I'm aware accidents happen, but they happen everywhere--and I don't know of anyone in my family that was accidentally shot, but I do know those who died in car accidents, and even an uncle who died in the hospital because he was given a medicine that his chart clearly said he was allergic to. People are also maimed and killed by pools (and bathtubs), trampolines, horseback riding, skateboarding. It's tragic when it happens, but it's not expected to, and people are expected to use common sense and proper safety protocols (heck, I personally don't think my family did enough that way, but there's no point in my pointing this out to them since they've never used guns in a fit of rage or harmed anyone accidentally, at least not in living memory). Just as these don't make me fear hospitals or cars, I don't fear gun accidents (though obviously, gross negligence or recklessness that causes an accidental discharge that harms another should be prosecuted--just as other forms of criminal negligence should be).
The point is that fearing guns so much seems silly to those of us raised with them, and you're not going to make progress to get us to see them with the same fear and/or loathing as others do. And talking as if we're a bunch of fearful, hateful people (not that anyone has in this thread) is just going to alienate them when they could otherwise be inclined to help.
That said, the NRA represents I think less than 5% of gun owners, and even many paying members don't accept the extreme (and often obnoxious) rhetoric of fear by the organization (that is the bureaucracy/leadership, which I'm almost certain is working with corporate sponsors). Plenty of gun owners voted for Obama despite how the NRA tried to portray him because we're not impressed with their fear mongering. I'm also horrified by mass shootings, and it angers me that my partner (a high school teacher) is required to take part in mass shooting drills at her school (which essentially are getting to "safe rooms" that can barricaded until the cops arrive) because it strikes me as necessary, and that is has come to this is ridiculous. And though I don't share her fear of guns, I do sympathize with her fears (since unlike me she wasn't raised with them and only thinks of them as tools of violence, an aspect that is rubbed in her face during these drills). While I don't disagree that a "good guy with a gun" MIGHT make a positive difference (under the right circumstances), trying to arm everyone seems as misguided (and unlikely to happen anyway) to me as total gun bans, both extremes being more likely to increase gun violence (and other problems) rather than decrease it.
I think the vast majority of gun owners (myself being one) are open to more reasonable restrictions...the trick is don't let the small but very vocal minority (who annoy and disturb the rest of us with their bumper sticker slogans & conspiracy rhetoric as well) into treating us all like we're extreme as that means you'll alienate many who might work with you (which means the vocal minority and NRA wins again). I'd LOVE to make it harder for guns to fall into the hands of the wrong people, I'm not overly worried about slippery slopes, and I know plenty of gun owners are the same who are sick of what keeps happening over and over again...though that said, I think focusing on guns is just treating the symptom rather than the disease, but I don't have a problem with treating that as well.
I was raised with guns (though no AR-15s--I did fire one when I was 17, however) and children on the farm were swiftly disciplined if we so much as looked like we were thinking of touching a gun without permission...much as we were about handling the propane ovens and heaters (and also when one little boy was hitting a propane tank as hard as he could with a hammer because he liked the noise it made 😱 ) and so they weren't seen as toys, and at least for me, it didn't even occur to me to touch one under normal circumstances, at least not on my own (and the couple of times I did, it didn't occur to me to use it, and I'd absorbed on how to safely handle them that I didn't harm myself or anyone else even then).
It became clear that guns were mostly about both hunting and varmint control (the farm also had some explosives that might be used for pest control, but mostly to handle things like certain tree roots and other nuisances), which protected livestock and crops, and helped to put food on the table (right along with the farming and fishing and even some foraging). While my grandmother (who had arthritis) did carry a gun with her when we went to the city just in case it was needed for self-defense, it was seen more as a way to deter violence rather than "punish the guilty" (and I personally know a handful of people of defended themselves with guns--and not a single shot was fired, rather they showed the gun and the attackers stopped, this typically being done immediately before or after calling the cops), which means guns can save lives as well as end them. It wasn't done in fear, either, it was "just in case." (One of the two times I touched one without permission was when Granny paid others to have the car cleaned on the inside while we were to do some shopping and had forgotten the handgun she had in the car, so I grabbed it secretly to give to her when we were alone...she was mortified at having forgotten it.)
As a result, they became ubiquitous, just part of the background, like the propane, butcher knives, vehicles, and boiling water--and just as most of you don't fear these other things, I didn't fear guns for the same reason (though I knew they had to be treated carefully, just like the propane gas did). Just as most of you expect others to use vehicles safely and responsibly (though all too many don't), I have the same expectation of having and using firearms. While specific people shouldn't have guns due to incompetence or poor impulse control, I'd say the same about cars, medicine, and many other things. If I didn't trust someone with a gun, then I wouldn't trust them with a knife, vehicle, or with boiling water.
I'm aware accidents happen, but they happen everywhere--and I don't know of anyone in my family that was accidentally shot, but I do know those who died in car accidents, and even an uncle who died in the hospital because he was given a medicine that his chart clearly said he was allergic to. People are also maimed and killed by pools (and bathtubs), trampolines, horseback riding, skateboarding. It's tragic when it happens, but it's not expected to, and people are expected to use common sense and proper safety protocols (heck, I personally don't think my family did enough that way, but there's no point in my pointing this out to them since they've never used guns in a fit of rage or harmed anyone accidentally, at least not in living memory). Just as these don't make me fear hospitals or cars, I don't fear gun accidents (though obviously, gross negligence or recklessness that causes an accidental discharge that harms another should be prosecuted--just as other forms of criminal negligence should be).
The point is that fearing guns so much seems silly to those of us raised with them, and you're not going to make progress to get us to see them with the same fear and/or loathing as others do. And talking as if we're a bunch of fearful, hateful people (not that anyone has in this thread) is just going to alienate them when they could otherwise be inclined to help.
That said, the NRA represents I think less than 5% of gun owners, and even many paying members don't accept the extreme (and often obnoxious) rhetoric of fear by the organization (that is the bureaucracy/leadership, which I'm almost certain is working with corporate sponsors). Plenty of gun owners voted for Obama despite how the NRA tried to portray him because we're not impressed with their fear mongering. I'm also horrified by mass shootings, and it angers me that my partner (a high school teacher) is required to take part in mass shooting drills at her school (which essentially are getting to "safe rooms" that can barricaded until the cops arrive) because it strikes me as necessary, and that is has come to this is ridiculous. And though I don't share her fear of guns, I do sympathize with her fears (since unlike me she wasn't raised with them and only thinks of them as tools of violence, an aspect that is rubbed in her face during these drills). While I don't disagree that a "good guy with a gun" MIGHT make a positive difference (under the right circumstances), trying to arm everyone seems as misguided (and unlikely to happen anyway) to me as total gun bans, both extremes being more likely to increase gun violence (and other problems) rather than decrease it.
I think the vast majority of gun owners (myself being one) are open to more reasonable restrictions...the trick is don't let the small but very vocal minority (who annoy and disturb the rest of us with their bumper sticker slogans & conspiracy rhetoric as well) into treating us all like we're extreme as that means you'll alienate many who might work with you (which means the vocal minority and NRA wins again). I'd LOVE to make it harder for guns to fall into the hands of the wrong people, I'm not overly worried about slippery slopes, and I know plenty of gun owners are the same who are sick of what keeps happening over and over again...though that said, I think focusing on guns is just treating the symptom rather than the disease, but I don't have a problem with treating that as well.
Am I the only one who is not surprised or shocked?
Yes upsetting, but to me, every shooting is.
Amazing timing isnt it?
Ok here - when has it ever been safe in a clubbing district at night? Even without guns? People in Oz get upset when Madonna runs late - cos the trains stop and no one can get home. Its never been considered safe to be out that late in a city in Australia (and we get pointed to for being so safe?)
What year were the Bali bombings? 2003ish? Hundreds died - but thats forgotten everywhere but Bali and Oz.
I quoted this as it was the first deranged individuals bit. Almost anyone can get a mental health diagnosis now. SO where is the line at normal anxiety/depression and deranged killer? And medication for these conditions causes violent thoughts and psychosis.
Drink driving and guns are different - here they DO ban cars from drunk drivers. They cant start them without a breath test. TO STOP THEM FROM KILLING PEOPLE.
Guns are really a small part of this particular shooting - in that he was motivated to kill, and likely would have without a gun.
Your mental health discussion scares me, someone mentioned an abortion clinic and religion? So if you go to a religious psych - you're normal. But got to a public one - and you're mad and medicated.
Yes upsetting, but to me, every shooting is.
Amazing timing isnt it?
Ok here - when has it ever been safe in a clubbing district at night? Even without guns? People in Oz get upset when Madonna runs late - cos the trains stop and no one can get home. Its never been considered safe to be out that late in a city in Australia (and we get pointed to for being so safe?)
What year were the Bali bombings? 2003ish? Hundreds died - but thats forgotten everywhere but Bali and Oz.
I quoted this as it was the first deranged individuals bit. Almost anyone can get a mental health diagnosis now. SO where is the line at normal anxiety/depression and deranged killer? And medication for these conditions causes violent thoughts and psychosis.
Drink driving and guns are different - here they DO ban cars from drunk drivers. They cant start them without a breath test. TO STOP THEM FROM KILLING PEOPLE.
Guns are really a small part of this particular shooting - in that he was motivated to kill, and likely would have without a gun.
Your mental health discussion scares me, someone mentioned an abortion clinic and religion? So if you go to a religious psych - you're normal. But got to a public one - and you're mad and medicated.
Anyanka Bunny Slayer
In America, if you go state funded, over-worked psychiatrists you will suffer greatly. As opposed to private care, which is lovely.
Anyanka Bunny Slayer
✨ Hail Hydra ✨
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I can see where this is heading...before he leaves office, Obama will have manufactured another "reason" to invade yet another Muslim country. After all, presidents who leave the post in a midst of bombs and cheering soldiers are remembered even more.
But wasnt it Bush who pushed the war after 9/11? It was going on before that too, I thought?
Also on your private psychatrist note - another discussion - but they milk you for money, and the care is no better.
Also on your private psychatrist note - another discussion - but they milk you for money, and the care is no better.
Anyanka Bunny Slayer
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Bush and his advisors were trying to find a reason to go to war before 9\11. So, they arranged the "terrorist attack."
The psychiatry might not be better, but they're not worn out from seeing literally dozens of patients a day.
Okay, back to the topic...
Well what is the topic?
Must only express sadness?
There are many topics in here and every single time there is a mass shooting, we hear the same arguments. And the same people crying "But thats not the point, we need to mourn" until the next mass shooting happens...
Muslims, guns, gays, culture, mental health. But shh dont say a word that might offend!
Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. - was that the einstein quote?
Must only express sadness?
There are many topics in here and every single time there is a mass shooting, we hear the same arguments. And the same people crying "But thats not the point, we need to mourn" until the next mass shooting happens...
Muslims, guns, gays, culture, mental health. But shh dont say a word that might offend!
Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. - was that the einstein quote?
Anyanka Bunny Slayer
Darling, I throughly ENJOY offending. It is my life's blood. But not on *this* site. ;)
NeonNightLight
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Another possible attempted terrorist attack yesterday. He was heading for the LA Pride Parade, but they're not 100% sure what his intentions were.
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Washburne
Protector of the key.
I see arguments like this a lot and I just can't wrap my head around it. Maybe someone can explain the logic. A guns purpose is to kill. It can be used for other things but it doesn't change it's purpose. A car on the other hand is made to take you places. Sadly they also play it's part in way too many deaths, no matter if alcohol are involved or not. The thing is, almost everything, including not man made things, can be used to kill. By accident or on purpose. Some things are just easier to use if you do it on purpose. You know, like things designed to kill.
I need some information about the 2nd amendment. It was passed 1791? Has it been altered in any way since? Because guns of 1791 and guns now are quite different are they not so you'd think that they've changed it accordingly.
Skanky Vamp
It's meaning has been altered numerous times. I believe the most recent was 2008.
Mr Trick
Scooby
I don't think that's true. Firstly I don't think he would have time to set such a thing in motion and secondly it doesn't fit in with his politics as a whole. He maybe as some claim a conservative disguised as a liberal but he still isn't a trigger happy extreme conservative like Bush was.
Bluebird
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He's actually worse. He built upon the groundwork Bush left, and there's been far more drone strikes under Obama. At least Bush was fairly upfront about it.
Mr Trick
Scooby
Politics is much more complex than that. My guess is that all that drone stuff was already set in motion from the Bush era and so it became very difficult to stop. Maybe you can fault Obama for not doing anything to stop them, but I would question if he did much more damage.
Bluebird
Please, if you are guessing your way through politics, don't lecture me on its complexities. Very rude to assume someone else's intelligence on a topic.
Bluebird
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If I'm not in a position to judge Obama, under your logic, then why are you allowed an opinion on gun control? This is a US problem which is much more complex than you think.
Mr Trick
Scooby
To be fair I did edit the post and delate that bit as maybe I was being a bit rough. But anyway its not the samething at all. You don't have to be in American and part of its culture to see a disturbing pattern devolping with Gun crimes and that a lot of Americans are blind to that issue. But I'd say its much harder to understand its politics as a whole if you are not in the country or at least educated on it. I understand that the Gun thing is a complex issue and that is why I didn't go off on one saying things like ban all guns etc... I suggested a mixture of education about the issue, restrictions on gun and more funding for young people to have alternative outlets. I agree that banning or restricting firearms would not be enough it inself, but it would certainly be a good start.
Bluebird
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How do you know I'm not educated on it? You shouldn't base an argument on assumptions or opinions - it is a fallacy.
Skanky Vamp
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Not to see it no, but maybe to best understand it. Do you realize there is a difference between 'gun crimes and/or gun violence' and mass shootings? Mass shootings are mass shootings, not gun crimes.