Sad week in Orlando

[white avenger]

No one wants to ban guns.

Of course they do. Hillary Clinton has said on many occasions that she thinks that there are "just too many guns" (not too many assault weapons or too many illegally owned guns) in America, and that that is an issue her administration will make a top priority. Obama demonizes assault weapons rather than address the simple fact that terrorism has finally come to America, and the government here is as helpless to stop it as any other nation in the world.

In all fairness, Trump's pro gun rhetoric is little more than hot air, playing to the conservative mindset.. If he doesn't favor an outright ban on guns, he wouldn't lose any sleep if far more stringent gun ownership laws were passed.

It's far easier to blame an inanimate object for all of our problems than to admit the fact that our government has been going steadily to crap for a long time now, and the professional politicians, who have lost all sense of what the real world is, are the major cause of it all.

 

[Mr Trick]

Of course they do. Hillary Clinton has said on many occasions that she thinks that there are "just too many guns" (not too many assault weapons or too many illegally owned guns) in America, and that that is an issue her administration will make a top priority. Obama demonizes assault weapons rather than address the simple fact that terrorism has finally come to America, and the government here is as helpless to stop it as any other nation in the world.

In all fairness, Trump's pro gun rhetoric is little more than hot air, playing to the conservative mindset.. If he doesn't favor an outright ban on guns, he wouldn't lose any sleep if far more stringent gun ownership laws were passed.

It's far easier to blame an inanimate object for all of our problems than to admit the fact that our government has been going steadily to crap for a long time now, and the professional politicians, who have lost all sense of what the real world is, are the major cause of it all.

But to fair most people on here are anti-gun like myself have never suggested baning them just that there should be stronger laws on axcess to them. The issues over gun ownership is one part of the problem, but there is a bigger society problem. The problem with that is that its much harder to solve an issue within the culture than it is to just restrict the use of guns.

 

[bespangeled]

I live in AZ - so guns are just a fact of life here. Family members with concealed carry permits know enough to put guns up out of reach of the children.

I still think that if someone is such a danger that they can't fly then they should not be permitted to buy an automatic weapon. There is seriously something that needs to be fixed on that list, if it's safe to sell arms but not plane tickets. Terrorism came here 15 years ago - and we really don't need to arm the terrorists.

 

[November]

Has anyone heard of ghost boxes? They are 3D printers that print guns and assault rifles. The developers were Americans. At the time I saw it, they were running legally, selling tiny gun factories, above the law.

Gun laws won't stop terrorists.

 

[white avenger]

I still think that if someone is such a danger that they can't fly then they should not be permitted to buy an automatic weapon.

That's exactly what the currently required background check is supposed to address. We're talking about a man who the FBI, among other agencies, supposedly investigated and failed to see any evidence against. Do we assume that they failed in their job, or accept that there is no possible way to predict the future 100% of the time? We live in a society where a man is assumed innocent until proven guilty, and I seriously doubt that many would care to change that.

The simple fact is that in a functioning society acts of terrorism are virtually impossible to either predict or effectively protect against, and mass killings are acts of terrorism, not simple crimes. No law, regulation, restriction, inspection, or wizard with a crystal ball can accurately predict where someone trying to make a "political" statement of advance an agenda will strike, and there is no way to deny terrorists, whether they are members of some organization, or someone working entirely alone, access to the tools required to achieve their results.

Background checks can, and usually do, stop known criminals from legally obtaining firearms and explosives, and waiting periods can, and usually do, prevent heat of the moment killings. The method is effective, if somewhat bothersome to honest citizens, and the vast majority of gun owners accept that fact. Terrorists and criminals obviously do not, by the very definition, act within the confines of current laws and regulations, or any laws and regulations that might be written and imposed in the future.

Even if it were possible, which it is not, to simply confiscate and destroy every single firearm in the United States and prevent the legal manufacture and ownership of any firearms in the future, criminals and terrorists would still obtain the weapons that they require. It would only serve to make the illegal market more profitable for those willing to exploit it.

 

[bespangeled]

That's exactly what the currently required background check is supposed to address.

You're right, terrorism can't be avoided, though I seriously doubt that someone who claimed to be both a member of ISIL and of Hezbollah has done enough research to know that one is Sunni and one is Shia, and that they are at war. Given that he was on some gay dating sites, and had been to the club, I think religion wasn't really his issue. But we will all come to different conclusion there.

Being on the no-fly list is not a disqualification. It should be. Once again, stop treating me as if I am anti-gun. I grew up around guns - I have family who own guns. I know all the arguments and some are pretty overblown but some make good sense. Allowing people on the no-fly list to buy guns is just plain stupid.

 

[white avenger]

Allowing people on the no-fly list to buy guns is just plain stupid.

I totally agree. If someone is on a no-fly list, or is even under investigation, they should not be able to legally obtain firearms. That's common sense, and penalizes no law abiding citizen.

As for being a terrorist, an act of terrorism doesn't require any sort of massive organization. Mass shootings have no purpose other than terrorism, whether perpetrated by ISIS, the KKK, or just some lunatic with a grudge.

And if you thought that I was treating you as if you were opposed to guns, I apologize. I was in no way trying to single you out for any such distinction. Obama and Clinton, however, are, and they surround themselves with those who agree with them. That doesn't mean that I group everyone who has an idea contrary to mine in with them.

 

[Ethan Reigns]

We seem to have a proliferation of lists - the no fly list is based on supposition rather than evidence and it is as hard to get off that list as the sex offender's list. Someone simply has to raise the idea that you have some reason to be on a list and you are on it. With the no fly list, you are never informed that you are on the list until you are refused a flight. No legal reason is given or required. It is just another version of civil forfeiture where the government takes something from you without legal justification. This has also led to torture in a foreign country (extraordinary rendition) for no reason other than someone has a bee in his bonnet that the subject of the torture is part of a terrorist enterprise.

The gun lobby is prepared to challenge the justification of lists that do not arise from legal determinations and the government does not want any light shining on their unjustified actions.

 

[bespangeled]

It's the most common kind of hate crime - gay man who hates the fact that he is gay.

Orlando shooting: Man who says he was Omar Mateen's gay lover speaks out

ORLANDO -- A man who says he was Orlando shooter Omar Mateen's gay lover is speaking out following the attack on Pulse nightclub that left 49 people dead, and dozens more injured.

In an interview with Univision anchor Maria Elena Salinas, the man -- who was called "Miguel" to protect his identity -- said he first met Mateen on the gay dating app Grindr.

***

Miguel said in an interview with Univision that Mateen, who was killed by police during the rampage on the Pulse nightclub early on June 12, was gay. He described his relationship with Mateen as "friends with benefits."

He said the sexual relationship lasted about two months, and they met at a hotel in Orlando between 15 and 20 times.

Miguel told Univison that he believes Mateen intentionally targeted Latinos in retribution for feeling rejected by Puerto Ricans.

"I believe this is not terrorism," Miguel said, despite investigators saying Mateen called 911 and posted to Facebook to pledge allegiance to ISIS during the rampage.

Rather, Miguel claimed Mateen was acting on revenge after being with a Puerto Rican man whom he later learned was HIV positive.

"He hate gay Puerto Ricans for all the stuff he did to him," Miguel said. "I believe this crazy horrible thing he did was for revenge."

Miguel said that Mateen's wife knew he was gay, and that his father forced him into an arranged marriage.

****
A U.S. official with knowledge of the situation previously told CBS News that club-goers have told investigators that Mateen had been at Pulse numerous times previously. Additionally, other media outlets have heard several stories of Mateen popping up and conversing with men on gay dating apps.

Jim Van Horn, 71, said Mateen was a "regular" at the popular Pulse nightclub.

Van Horn, a retired pharmacist, said he met Mateen once, and the younger man talked about his ex-wife. But Van Horn said his friends soon "told me they didn't want me talking to him, because they thought he was a strange person."

***
While it is still possible Mateen was just very closely surveying his chosen target for terror, former senior FBI profiler Mary Ellen O'Toole told CBS News that doesn't seem likely.

"This to me suggests somebody that may have had sexual identity issues and may have actually been struggling with the idea that he himself was gay and that would add a different motive and a different perspective on the case," O'Toole said.

 

[November]

He did exactly what ISIS called for. He openly supported them while killing people radical Muslims hate.

 

[Skanky Vamp]

We seem to have a proliferation of lists - the no fly list is based on supposition rather than evidence and it is as hard to get off that list as the sex offender's list. Someone simply has to raise the idea that you have some reason to be on a list and you are on it. With the no fly list, you are never informed that you are on the list until you are refused a flight. No legal reason is given or required. It is just another version of civil forfeiture where the government takes something from you without legal justification.

Completely agree. Which is why it would be unjust to deny someone from buying a gun that is on the no-fly list. The no-fly list presumes guilt without actual evidence and simply the presumed guilt is not enough to warrant the removal of one's constitutional rights.

 

[white avenger]

This isn't actually related to the Orlando shootings, except to show that, sometimes, having someone around with their own guns, can actually make the difference. And it didn't devolve into Dodge City, the way that Feinstein said that it would.

Augusta police: Legally armed bystanders break up Walmart shooting

No, these people weren't heavily armed and motivated terrorists with a suicidal mindset, but it's still a potential tragedy averted.

 

[thrasherpix]

If we're going into legally armed citizens stopping a shooting, there have been more than once when that happened. Most of them time they were off duty cops (who are apparently exempted from the "no guns" policy of gun free zones, though in one college shooting the off duty cops had to race out to their cars to get their guns before running back in, and btw that place wasn't far from Virginia Tech, but 2 men with a gun made a difference...might be worth noting that in the VT shooting that police came and left in the middle of the shooting), and it wasn't people randomly shooting each other up (though in this specific case they were dang lucky they didn't accidentally set off any other ammo that wounded others):

Gun Shop Robber

'Course most people, be they robbers or mass murderers, have far too much sense than to target a gun store. Offhand, I can only think of one shooting at a shooting range (possibly a copycat or two immediately after), and in that case it was a schizophrenic woman who was given a gun "to try out" at the counter of the gun range! (And where else would this happen other than in Florida? 😛 )

I forget the details, but deadly mass murderer Charles Whitman (a professionally trained sniper) who (after killing his wife and mother) went to kill as many at the University of Texas racked up a large number of kills, yet it probably would've been a lot worse had not legally armed students (this was in the 60s) hadn't forced the sniper to take cover while the police arrived on the scene, with some taking cover and firing at him whenever he aimed to take out another student before they all fled. Had he not been a professional sniper who found a good spot, and with distance his ally (rifles have a much greater range than other guns, something he probably took into account) then those armed students may have even been the ones to stop him.

Though just as a warning to any who actually hope to be the one to stop a mass shooter with a gun...many of them wear body armor. 😱

I will say that though I don't like the idea of arming teachers (especially being made a requirement) for various reasons (though I'm okay with those who can prove competence and good character who can get a CCW license carrying secretly), being around armed people generally doesn't bother me (and when I walked into an Arizona gas station where I saw multiple armed people, my thought was that no one was going to make trouble here), no more than being around people behind the wheel of car (though if they're texting while driving, or have a beer in their hand, then I instantly become a lot more worried, same if I saw someone drinking or texting while engaged in some shooting sport). Hmm...random Buffy quote of the day:

Giles: Weapons?!
Spike: Hello! You're driving one!
Willow: Don't hurt the horsies!
Buffy: We won't. (whispers to Giles) Aim for the horsies.