Sam Lawson...I Don't Get It

[CharmedSlayer85]

Okay first I wanted to mention the inconsistancy of the whole thing, because when Darla was dying Angel was considering siring her saying "We don't know what would happen if I did it, I mean I have a soul so maybe you would too." I mean granted it's in quotes and those aren't the exact words, but yeah but clearly he knew what kind of would happen cause he sired Sam with a soul, but anyway. The whole Sam thing I don't get it. Angel said Sam didn't have a soul, but yet Sam gained no pleasure in being evil and kind of but not fully regretted some of the things he'd done. So I mean what exactly was he, if he didn't have a soul and he wasn't as EVIL as a vampire should be then what was he, a vamp-human? I mean I don't get it.

 

[Tranquillity]

This is certainly an interesting question. So here's my take on the Lawson situation:

Firstly, Why We Fight is another episode in season five that seems on the surface to be about Angel and someone (in this case Lawson) but is really a comment on Angel and Spike (Origin is another example of this). I think we are supposed to make some parallels between Spike and Lawson.

1. Spike and Lawson are both 'sons' of Angel
2. They are both on the sub and Angel lets them go at the end of the mission even though he knows they will both go out and kill people.
3. We know that Spike had to be 'taught' to be a vampire by Angel while Lawson was released into the world with no such tuition.
4. Both Lawson and Spike seem to experience some difficulty with the whole vampire thing - Spike sires his mother out of love (something vampires are supposed to be incapable of), is more interested in dru than killing and it is only through being taught the ways of the vampire by Angel does he come to conform. Then later, of course the chip and Buffy make him question the demon inside and he begins to change. Lawson is shown to get very little satisfaction out of being a vampire yet he obviously still does what he needs to do to survive, that is, kill - its instinctual.
5. So Spike's solution to his disatisfaction with vampire life is to go and win himself his soul back. Lawson's solution to his disatisfaction is to check up on Angel every few years, make sure he's still suffering and then, when he finds that Angel is living the high life, he comes in and tries to kill team angel in order to make the old man suffer. he is essentially still evil and is unable to resist the impulse to do evil.

Lawson's reappearance serves the purpose of making Angel realise that Spike is acctually pretty amazing and not the idiot Angel conveiniently casts him as. This allows Angel up to admit for the first time that Spike is also a champion (in A hole in the World - I think) and also contributes to Angel coming to the conclusion that he is not the prophecy guy (i'm not saying he's not but this is certainly what Angel himself believes by the end of the series). The final shot of the episode is telling - Angel is sitting slumped in a chair while Spike is given the higher status, standing confidently.

 

[CharmedSlayer85]

This is certainly an interesting question. So here's my take on the Lawson situation:

Firstly, Why We Fight is another episode in season five that seems on the surface to be about Angel and someone (in this case Lawson) but is really a comment on Angel and Spike (Origin is another example of this). I think we are supposed to make some parallels between Spike and Lawson.

1. Spike and Lawson are both 'sons' of Angel
2. They are both on the sub and Angel lets them go at the end of the mission even though he knows they will both go out and kill people.
3. We know that Spike had to be 'taught' to be a vampire by Angel while Lawson was released into the world with no such tuition.
4. Both Lawson and Spike seem to experience some difficulty with the whole vampire thing - Spike sires his mother out of love (something vampires are supposed to be incapable of), is more interested in dru than killing and it is only through being taught the ways of the vampire by Angel does he come to conform. Then later, of course the chip and Buffy make him question the demon inside and he begins to change. Lawson is shown to get very little satisfaction out of being a vampire yet he obviously still does what he needs to do to survive, that is, kill - its instinctual.
5. So Spike's solution to his disatisfaction with vampire life is to go and win himself his soul back. Lawson's solution to his disatisfaction is to check up on Angel every few years, make sure he's still suffering and then, when he finds that Angel is living the high life, he comes in and tries to kill team angel in order to make the old man suffer. he is essentially still evil and is unable to resist the impulse to do evil.

Lawson's reappearance serves the purpose of making Angel realise that Spike is acctually pretty amazing and not the idiot Angel conveiniently casts him as. This allows Angel up to admit for the first time that Spike is also a champion (in A hole in the World - I think) and also contributes to Angel coming to the conclusion that he is not the prophecy guy (i'm not saying he's not but this is certainly what Angel himself believes by the end of the series). The final shot of the episode is telling - Angel is sitting slumped in a chair while Spike is given the higher status, standing confidently.

Yeah but you must also realize that even the writers have said plenty of times that Spike is an anomoly and he's basically the one vampire in the world who kept his human emotions upon becoming a vampire. So it wasn't him not being interested in killing, he was very much interested in killing and murdering. Also Spike got his soul because he believed doing so would get Buffy to fall in love with him, it had nothing to do with dissatifaction of being a vampire or anything like that.

 

[Angel's vision]

i'm not saying he's not but this is certainly what Angel himself believes by the end of the series). The final shot of the episode is telling - Angel is sitting slumped in a chair while Spike is given the higher status, standing confidently.

The pose at the has nothing to do with it, in my view, Angel doesn't believe
he isn't the chosen vamp by the end of the series, Cordy's return put paid to that, and Spike himslef said " I thought i had a destiny".
Else why would he "sign" it away?

Anyways most of what you said is how i'd see it but for what Charmedslayer85 pionted out.

 

[Schillaci]

Also Spike got his soul because he believed doing so would get Buffy to fall in love with him, it had nothing to do with dissatifaction of being a vampire or anything like that.

That's not true, at all. Spike was clearly conflicted. The scene after he 'tries to rape' Buffy, he questions who he is. He thinks that because he's a vampire, that he should act that way, but he doesn't feel that way. He feels love, for Buffy. That's not what a vampire is, that's not what it feels, that's what a human being feels.

Actually if you look at Spike's actions you can see that they go deeper than that. It is not just his love for Buffy that makes him get his soul. Spike wants to be a good man, he spends so much of Season six trying to convince Buffy to come into the darkness with him, but really he's convincing himself to stay within the darkness, because he's lost and he needs to believe.

 

[Tranquillity]

The pose at the has nothing to do with it, in my view, Angel doesn't believe
he isn't the chosen vamp by the end of the series, Cordy's return put paid to that, and Spike himslef said " I thought i had a destiny".
Else why would he "sign" it away?

Of course things like positioning of charactes has something to do with the message they are giving! these are crafted, deliberate shows that we are watching. Power, emotion, status and the like are all conveyed through getting the actors to do particular things with their bodies. of course its relevant.

Cordy's return is to get Angel to see the mistake he made bringing them all to wolfram and hart and Angel signs the shanshu away so easily because he no longer thinks it is about him.

 

[nerd4hire]

Another thing worth considering, I think, is it isn't just Sam, and Spike who the demon doesn't drive to our expectations. There's Harmony.

In fact I think you could make an argument saying Angelverse Vampires are driven by their demons with different momentum to the dark, depending on their human history, and external influences. Angel as a series was saying that from the beginning. There's Penn, and what's the name of the vampire couple who were soulmates without souls?

 

[Angel's vision]

Cordy's return is to get Angel to see the mistake he made bringing them all to wolfram and hart and Angel signs the shanshu away so easily because he no longer thinks it is about him.

Whilst i agree she returned for that, lets not forget he was emotionally blackmailed, and his attitude to W&H was nieve,he needed guidence.

He was the Vamp in question, Cordy said, Spike said "i thought i had a destiny" as i said. He did believe he was, the circle believed he was, that's why they made him sign it away, that had alot to do with his conversation with Harmony about remembering what it was like to be human etc.That's why i do not agree with what you say about Angel no longer believing he is the chosen Vamp.
As for the pose i don't read too much into those things, but you did raise an interesting piont about that.

 

[Schillaci]

I agree about the posing of the characters, and specific statements the writers are trying to make.

And I'm with Nerd4hire on the vamp thing. I think it was Darla who said to Angel something along the lines of "everything we were(as a human) informs all that we become(as a vampire)". They retain issues that they had and internal conflicts. I think especially with Angel, Harm, and Spike this is quite evident.

I'm not on board about the prophecy thing. I think the Shanshu is about Angel. I don't think I've ever doubted it. I mean it could be about Spike, I just don't think it is. "The powers that be" think the Shanshu is about Angel. These are the guys in the know.

 

[Tranquillity]

How do we know that the powers that be know? From what i can tell they are no more knowledgable about who are the subjects of prophecy than anybody else. That's what makes it a prophecy. They merely backed the most likey candidate.

anyway, I'm not saying the shan shu is not about Angel. In my reading of the entire series, i argue, that by the end, Angel does not believe that he is the guy of the prohecy. I'll explain my thinking:

The Powers that Be, at some point notice Angel - remorseful and eating rats in the sewers and allyways in New York. They think Aha! there is a prophecy about a vampire with a soul, lets help this chap out and get him working for us. So they send Whistler to give him a prod into action. Then he starts to help Buffy and she has to send him to hell etc...
Ok, so then the First Evil brings Angel back from hell, supposedly so he can do its bidding. He won't do it and would rather die. The PTB are happy that their Vampire shows a bit of spunk and determination, so they make it snow and Angel is saved and so is able to move to LA and start exploring his destiny. He of course, finds out about the shanshu and it becomes something of a burden to him. It confuses the boundaries of why he wants to be a hero. is it for redemption or the promise of a reward at the end? Over seasons 2,3 and 4 angel's belief in the prohecy wavers but it is still a symbol of hope for him. When they get to W&H his level of hope is pretty low and in fact, he tells Spike that the prophecy is rubbish and that he dosen't believe in it, but at the end of Numero Cinco he is seen reading the prophecy, showing us that he still has a measure of hope left. That there is a purpose to everything.

Then, throughout the rest of the series, that hope is gradually erroded.

In Destiny we are hit between the eyes with the fact that there are now two vampires with soul. Angel and Spike have their truely excellent fight with each arguing as to why they are better than the other. Spike wins the fake cup - which means nothing except that it starts Angel doubting himself.

In Soul Purpose, the dreams are not just angel’s worst fears, they are also prophetic. They foreshadow Fred's death, the loss of Buffy's trust, angel's loss of purpose and the importance of Spike. We see Angel without shoes (sans shoes = no shanshu) while we know previously Spike has dreamt of 'drowning in footwear'. Not to mention that this episode seems to be loosely based on Shakespeare's Henry IV part one with Angel taking the roll of Henry IV and Spike playing Prince Hal, his son. Eventually, prince Hal becomes Henry V, a warrior greater than his father. Food for thought indeed.

Why We Fight - i've explained my reading earlier.

In Smile Time, Angel is a puppet. Literally. The metaphor could not be clearer. He has been a puppet to his calling, to the powers that be, to wolfram and hart and yes, to the Shan Shu prophecy.

By A Hole in the World he is readily admitting that Spike is also a Champion - a thing he has previously been loath to admit.

In Underneath Spike is welcomed to the team - Wolfram and Hart and the Senior Partners are now interested in Spike, the other Vampire with a soul

In Origin, Angel is confronted with a prophecy that he can't fulfil, that only his son can. The text is Connor and Angel but the Subtext is Spike and Angel. A prophecy only his son can fulfil. Vail says 'But don't worry. Your boy is very brave. I'm sure he'll do you proud' the words resonate with double meaning.

Then we come to Timebomb - an amazing episode in which Angel makes his decision about what to do. in this episode Angel is out of phase with time (as he is out of phase with his purpose), Connor has his memories back and the need for them to be at W&H has gone. On top of that Spike and Wes conspire together over Illyria and Angel is excluded.

Angel and Illyria have the following exchange:

ANGEL
Illyria, the future can change here. You can choose a different path.

ILLYRIA
and be nothing.

ANGEL
And be what you are.
Fighting to hold on to what you were... it's destroying you.

And he hears his own words (invert the conversation) - It doesn’t matter if he's not destined to be the 'One' - he can be what he is and still be a hero and champion which leads to the plan to escape W&H and bring down the black thorn....

Ironically, this letting go of the ShanShu and the need for a reward may be exactly the thing that will allow him to gain it in the long run....

I don't particularly care which of them gets it, Angel would probably like to be human better than Spike, who has maintained many links to humanity anyway. All i'm saying is that by the end of season 5, Angel dosen't think he's the guy and that is why he is able to sign it away so easily, his discussion with Harmony is wistful and sad, every ounce of hope he had for the prophecy and being human again is gone and he doesn't tell Spike about it before the final battle because Angel knows what a burden it has been for him and so is loath to burden his heir apparent with it too.

 

[alexa]

Wow I disagree with so much, but I'm also sleepy so not sure if I rant that it would make sense. But I'm an Angel fan, as well as a Spike fan.. although unlike Spike, I find Angel to be highly underrated as a character. From my angle Shanshu was something Angel held on to, but he signed that destiny away (if he did at all anyway) because his mission was more important then his own needs. Poor Angel is constantly forced to sacrifice anything that means something to him, for the better of someone else or the world (Buffy, Connor, mortality.. which he's now given up twice to save someone else or elses).

Anyways to be on topic, I don't think Spike is the only vampire to exibit signs of humanity. He is the only one to go so far as to seek out a soul though.

 

[Angel's vision]

I agree kanga, and the very notion Tranquilitity said and i agree is that yes Angel has been a puppet to the powers and W&H who both have proven to be untrustworthy the powers over the Cordy thing etc.
Because the Prophesy is a burden and the proof is IWRY, (and the journey he took in s2), he had that one day as a human and he reversed it, because as a friend once put it he would of felt guilty that he could not be the champion he is and save people.


However, because he beleived the prophesey was about him, that was the reason W&H were annoying him, don't you think that was the very reason he signed it away? To be free, of the power struggle that he was caught up in with the SP and the PTB?
Angel when he said he quit he meant it and i do not think he changed his mind, he just saw another way of going about things, the vision was one, it was a one last thing for him to do,fight the baddies one last time once and for all before he bails out, that was probably why he was willing to sacrifce himself in the last fight.

Anyway The Harmony bit is very interesting, was she good or evil or was she "sitting on the fence"?
I could never make her out, i guess she tried to be "Good" but when she is faced with the poeple around her who wont believe her to be trustworthy she might aswell be evil and go with the bad guys, it depends on who is able to persuade her easilly, the winning team,good or bad.

I guess Spike never lost his concepts of humanity, and was always underneath, His love for Buffy i guess bought it out of him, and smacked him in the face!
Lawson as i understand it was effected by the fact that Angel had a soul when he was sired and it "passed" on to Lawson, via the blood, he wasn't aware of the effects it had on Lawson till "Why we fight".

 

[CharmedSlayer85]

That's not true, at all. Spike was clearly conflicted. The scene after he 'tries to rape' Buffy, he questions who he is. He thinks that because he's a vampire, that he should act that way, but he doesn't feel that way. He feels love, for Buffy. That's not what a vampire is, that's not what it feels, that's what a human being feels.

Actually if you look at Spike's actions you can see that they go deeper than that. It is not just his love for Buffy that makes him get his soul. Spike wants to be a good man, he spends so much of Season six trying to convince Buffy to come into the darkness with him, but really he's convincing himself to stay within the darkness, because he's lost and he needs to believe.

Yes but it all goes back to his love for Buffy. I mean why does Spike want to be a good man, because he loves Buffy. Why is he so conflicted as a vampire, because he loves Buffy and he figures that without a soul Buffy could never truly love him, and it is also without a soul that he attempted to rape her and didn't even realize what he was doing until it was too late.

 

[Ashxking]

I always wondered if Wes missread the Shanshu. What if it said vampires with a soul will play a role on the side of good and evil. One letter off could mean alot