Santa Barbara Shooting

[Black Eye Guy]

What do you guys think of this whole story?

It's one of the most bizarre stories I've heard, I was watching through his YouTube videos they are quite freaky, The last one where he talks about his plan is just insane, but the rest are really unsettling.

His dad was a director, his step mom was a Real Housewife on the french version of the show, and he seems very into himself. The way he talks about himself, shoots himself on camera and even sending out a full book sized autobiography, there was something very fame hungry about him. I think he'd like all the attention he got after death, such as now having close to 6000 subscribers on YouTube.

The conversation thats sprung up from the whole thing is also strange, his sense of entitlement to women is beyond crazy, but it's something that is definitely out there and it's not really something thats only out there a little, anyone thats been out in clubs knows there is a lot of entitlement feelings on guys buying drinks for girls.
I've seen it so many times where a guy buys a drink for a friend of mine then ditches their friends and is suddenly always around, like they've invested in something to get the pay off for later.
I've been asked to get rid of those barnacle-boys a good few times now, ranging from making out with friends to pretend you're their boyfriend or telling the guy about their "boyfriend". My personal favourite is pissing the guys off in the bitchiest way possible (Last time I did it the guy was Italian and names Lugi, I kept asking questions about Mario, till he got so sick of me he left)
But my point was it's obviously something that happens a lot, but I dont think it's something, even people that do it, would acknowledge it like this guy. There are degrees to it though, if a guy buys one drink for a girl there doesn't have to be anything there, but if a girls gets a guy to buy all their drinks (like the same guy all night) I feel like that girl should be interested (just to be clear, I dont think anyone is entitled to anything, just that the girl should be thinking "I could potentially like this guy", if she wakes up the next morning and in the cold light of sobriety says "Hell no" and deletes his number thats absolutely fine. I just seen girls go out without money knowing they wont have to pay for anything and if the only person that comes along isn't of any interest to them they'll still let them buy them drinks - I do think it's fair enough if the guy is dumb enough to do it, but its just not very cool).

I think it's interesting that the debate thats come out of it is all about men entitlement and women, yet he killed 2 women and 4 men. His hate speech is mostly about women, but a fair amount about men too. But all the news articles report it the same way, that he killed "6 women and men". I specifically read more articles to see how they reported it and most reported it like that with the number next to the word women, Initially I even thought he killed all women. I honestly believe that if his hate speech wasn't out there it would be reported more as "6 people" or "4 men and 2 women", the skewering of the story makes me a little uncomfortable just to be used as a point.
Even though I agree the entitlement thing is an issue, this guy had other mental issues that I have to think played a part, but those issues are being largely ignored. Not to mention so many people instantly dismissing his problems cuz he had a nice car and went to movie premiers.

Nothing explains or forgives what he did, but there's something really sad and lonely in those videos and his writings. Must be horrible for his parents to not just know their son did what he did but to be able to watch his insane ramblings.

The whole gun control issue on this one is really interesting, there doesn't seem to be as big an uproar as there was after the sandy hooks shooting. It almost feels like the news articles are sick of reporting on the lack/ridiculous/stupid gun control issue, like they know there is no point even bringing up the issues. Each article is written like it should start with "Well we knew it was gonna happen again..."
At least the debate is still happening in the comment sections of the articles.

The whole thing feels like a plot from some awful lifetime movie about some fame hungry teenager who blogs his way trough a killing spree.

 

[white avenger]

Nothing explains or forgives what he did, but there's something really sad and lonely in those videos and his writings. Must be horrible for his parents to not just know their son did what he did but to be able to watch his insane ramblings.

The whole gun control issue on this one is really interesting, there doesn't seem to be as big an uproar as there was after the sandy hooks shooting. It almost feels like the news articles are sick of reporting on the lack/ridiculous/stupid gun control issue, like they know there is no point even bringing up the issues. Each article is written like it should start with "Well we knew it was gonna happen again..."
At least the debate is still happening in the comment sections of the articles.

Don't worry, before long there will be people screaming "Nobody needs a gun that can fire 500 times before reloading" so loudly that they will almost drown out the ones screaming "Guns don't kill people, people kill people." Sadly, both sides have valid points, but they're too busy hollering useless slogans to come together and actually try and come up with a workable solution to the problem. Hopefully someday a solution can be found. It's just not going to happen anytime soon.

 

[brinkster130]

This whole thing is disgusting, disturbing, and sad.

I personally don't mind the discussion about male entitlement that is coming from this. Being a "gentleman" does not in any way mean you are deserving of love, affection, or sex. This guy killed numerous people because his feelings were hurt over sexual rejection?! That is what triggered this, his hatred and frustration with women, that is why the media is focusing on his misogynistic narcissism. This is from his manifesto:

The Second Phase will represent my War on Women. I will punish all females for the crime of depriving me of sex.

That entitlement is ****ing sickening; and it doesn't end there, he goes on and on about hating women because they don't give him the attention he deserves. It's sad but we live in a time where we need to take a look at what our boys (and all children really) are being taught; no means no...always. This is not a hard concept yet somehow our society has failed to instill this.

I'm deeply disappointed that people reported his pathetic you tube videos before this event but the police deemed him "polite and courteous" and downplayed his mental illness. If that isn't some twisted rich boy privilege then what is? This kid was suppose to be on medication and the therapist who he regularly saw was in contact with both his parents. His parents and therapist aren't responsible, but the kid clearly wasn't getting the treatment he needs and for that I do question his parents, his therapist and the police. Why wasn't he getting more treatment? Why didn't people take the complaints seriously? Clearly the resources were available.

I really, really hope that at some point in the near future the government (both federal and local) take steps to help insure it is harder to get your hands on fire arms. Someone who is on medication for any mental health issue shouldn't be allowed to legally purchase firearms. That safety precaution is more important that doctor patient confidentiality.

Side-note : I live about 90 miles from where this happened and it isn't all over the news.

 

[white avenger]

I really, really hope that at some point in the near future the government (both federal and local) take steps to help insure it is harder to get your hands on fire arms. Someone who is on medication for any mental health issue shouldn't be allowed to legally purchase firearms. That safety precaution is more important that doctor patient confidentiality.

The problem is, that's an action that will have little or no effect on this sort of crime. The person who is determined to get a gun, WILL get a gun, and if breaking any existing law to get one is their only option, then they will break those laws. Laws don't deter crimes, they just give the police more things to charge the criminal with after the crime has already been committed.

And doctor/patient confidentiality only comes into play if the person commiting the crime was under a doctor's care in the first place. Far too many potential killers of this sort are not.

 

[EVIL UU]

I'll take great pleasure in slaughtering all of you. You will finally see that I am, in truth, the superior one, the true alpha male

And you know what is the saddest thing about it, aside from him using the concept of an alpha male to describe human beings? It will actually work. Chicks will dig him! Take a good look around tumblr and other places and you will find entire communities of young women devoted to young, fairly good-looking serial killers, school shooters, rapists and such. And it's not just that, mainstream media eat it up too, I mean, for all intents and purposes Dzhokhar Tsarnaev is a celebrity.

Anyway, is it just me or does this whole story make way too much sense in a cultural context? Glorification of violence and simultaneous demonetization of and obsession with sex meet right here, the fact that his family members work in an industry that thrives on it is just an acing on the cake.
[MENTION=5973]Black Eye Guy[/MENTION]

I think it's interesting that the debate thats come out of it is all about men entitlement and women, yet he killed 2 women and 4 men. His hate speech is mostly about women, but a fair amount about men too. But all the news articles report it the same way, that he killed "6 women and men". I specifically read more articles to see how they reported it and most reported it like that with the number next to the word women, Initially I even thought he killed all women. I honestly believe that if his hate speech wasn't out there it would be reported more as "6 people" or "4 men and 2 women", the skewering of the story makes me a little uncomfortable just to be used as a point.

It's not a story when only men die. Men are disposable. There is an evolutionary explanation to it though. In a nutshell: you have a little tribe in the desert - 10 men, 10 women. 9 men die, the tribe still survives, 9 women die, the tribe is gone. This is why to a lot of people the lives of women ( and children ) are more important than the lives of men. Thing is, we're not a little tribe in the desert anymore. From a survival perspective single woman's ability to give birth is completely meaningless with a population measured in billions. Problem is, humans haven't caught up yet.

 

[Black Eye Guy]

The problem is, that's an action that will have little or no effect on this sort of crime. The person who is determined to get a gun, WILL get a gun, and if breaking any existing law to get one is their only option, then they will break those laws. Laws don't deter crimes, they just give the police more things to charge the criminal with after the crime has already been committed.



And doctor/patient confidentiality only comes into play if the person commiting the crime was under a doctor's care in the first place. Far too many potential killers of this sort are not.

That is a stupid and ridiculous argument. Of corse having tighter gun laws would detour crime. It's easy to get a gun illegally cuz it's easy to get one legally.

You can get guns legally in the US so there's no point comparing the availability of illegal guns. If you want to properly look at that you look at how easy it is to get a gun in a country where guns are illegal.

By your logic there should be no laws, people underage can get alcohol, people can get illegal drugs, people can drive drunk, people can drive without a licence - what's the point in having any of those laws? Having the laws makes people think twice about it, for this kid it was obviously a well thought out plan so the second thought wouldn't have stopped him, but maybe if he couldn't buy a gun from a shop he wouldn't have gotten one and the amount of people he killed would be 50% lower.


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[Robb Stark]

[MENTION=6758]white avenger[/MENTION],

Tighter laws, whether gun related or not, will not stop 100 percent of crime. With a population our size, the possibility will always exist for someone to slip through even the best or worst laws. No one is making that argument. But it is a statistically supported fact that when the opportunity to commit a crime goes up, then so does crime rates. That's not just me saying things, it is one of the most basic and widely accepted criminological principles.

Restricting access to guns for the mentally ill is not a government conspiracy to take people's guns away.

---------- Post added at 08:19 AM ---------- Previous post was at 08:09 AM ----------

As for this clown who shot up UCSB, these idiots are all the same. Seriously, they are fast becoming the single most cliched type of killer. These guys are all tired, isolated, lonely men with no hobbies, no experiences and tremendously warped views of their own self-worth. They are almost all narcissistic, possess degrees of low cunning and always, ALWAYS lack the intelligence they desperately claim to have. It's almost ironic. These guys spend so much time and energy thinking they're better than the world, hating the world, and they all go down the same way.

His blatant misogyny, another common trait, just makes me roll my eyes, but it's something I really, really want to address. There is this belief among a lot of guys, usually among guys who don't get a lot of girls (I'm being blunt here), that being a "nice guy" somehow means that women owe you sex or a relationship. That's crap. You should just BE nice! If you're only being kind or polite in the quest for sex, then you're an asshole. Women, just like men, are not just attracted to "nice". Guys who bitch and moan about women turning them away repeatedly, even though they're "nice", don't get it (and it took me a while to figure this out too). That is the EXACT same argument unattractive, boring women use. It takes a strength, regardless of which sex you are, to look in the mirror and want to improve yourself, to realize your weaknesses and work to correct them. It takes a coward to blame the opposite sex for your own shortcomings and become embittered.

I wish more guys, and girls (though as a guy I don't often have to hear about it from girls) would understand this. No one owes you sex, or anything else for that matter. The opposite sex is not your plaything. If an objective of yours is more sex or more relationships, and you are not achieving that objective, then change what you're doing! Work to better yourself, physically and emotionally.

 

[dtrain24]

This whole thing is disgusting, disturbing, and sad.

I personally don't mind the discussion about male entitlement that is coming from this. Being a "gentleman" does not in any way mean you are deserving of love, affection, or sex. This guy killed numerous people because his feelings were hurt over sexual rejection?! That is what triggered this, his hatred and frustration with women, that is why the media is focusing on his misogynistic narcissism. This is from his manifesto:

That entitlement is ****ing sickening; and it doesn't end there, he goes on and on about hating women because they don't give him the attention he deserves. It's sad but we live in a time where we need to take a look at what our boys (and all children really) are being taught; no means no...always. This is not a hard concept yet somehow our society has failed to instill this.

I'm deeply disappointed that people reported his pathetic you tube videos before this event but the police deemed him "polite and courteous" and downplayed his mental illness. If that isn't some twisted rich boy privilege then what is? This kid was suppose to be on medication and the therapist who he regularly saw was in contact with both his parents. His parents and therapist aren't responsible, but the kid clearly wasn't getting the treatment he needs and for that I do question his parents, his therapist and the police. Why wasn't he getting more treatment? Why didn't people take the complaints seriously? Clearly the resources were available.

I really, really hope that at some point in the near future the government (both federal and local) take steps to help insure it is harder to get your hands on fire arms. Someone who is on medication for any mental health issue shouldn't be allowed to legally purchase firearms. That safety precaution is more important that doctor patient confidentiality.

Side-note : I live about 90 miles from where this happened and it isn't all over the news.

I couldn't agree more. This whole thing was absolutely sickening. No girl should lose her life just because she rejected a so called "gentleman."

As a guy, I agree we need to do more to educate all our children about boundaries and no meaning no.

More specifically, as a late teenage boy, I think it's disappointing that this jackass acts as a symbol of what we're like. I guarantee that I, nor a lot of guys I know would never hurt a woman because they feel entitled to her. It's true that we want to be seen as gentlemen, but this guy was the furthest thing from one.

I applaud the feminist movement for sticking up for themselves now, with the #YesAllWomen hashtag.

 

[brinkster130]

The problem is, that's an action that will have little or no effect on this sort of crime. The person who is determined to get a gun, WILL get a gun, and if breaking any existing law to get one is their only option, then they will break those laws. Laws don't deter crimes, they just give the police more things to charge the criminal with after the crime has already been committed.

And doctor/patient confidentiality only comes into play if the person commiting the crime was under a doctor's care in the first place. Far too many potential killers of this sort are not.

You are right about laws not being enough to stop crime, however why not make it harder to do so? What is the harm in that? People shouldn't be able to walk into a store and buy a gun so easily. Look at the guy who shot up Virginia Tech and this guy at UCSB, neither one of them should have been able to legally obtain fire arms given their mental health and treatment.

Honestly at the end of the day, it doesn't take a madman to commit a crime like this. It just takes an angry person and a gun....both of which are very EASY to come by.

 

[The Bronze]

I'm not sure about this [HASHTAG]#yesallwomen[/HASHTAG] thing that's sprung up after the shootings. There's some unpleasnt stories that have been shared but I'm not sure the overall message makes sense. The general feeling being that men should be taught not to attack people, rather than teaching women how to stay safe. But you know most men don't attack people and we have laws in place for the people who do attack others. I guess i don't really see what the aim of it all is. Plus I think the rants of this man are being blown up out of proportion to the incident. Reminds me a little of whenever there's a shooting it gets blamed on the music the shooter listened to. The actual problem being that you have an angry/sick individual with a weapon.

 

[white avenger]

I have debated and argued the subject of gun control for most of my adult life, and I have come to one conclusion. I'm right and you're wrong. Unfortunately, there are people with opposite views to mine who feel exactly the same way. That being the case, I see no reason whatsoever to engage in yet another fruitless discussion on the subject.

Anyone who is genuinely interested in the topic, and has not yet reached that level of commitment, I would recommend the book "Control: Exposing The Truth About Guns," by Glenn Beck. His arguments are articulate and based on provable facts, not emotionalism, and, I believe, address just about every argument on the subject.

---------- Post added at 07:34 PM ---------- Previous post was at 06:03 PM ----------

[MENTION=6758]white avenger[/MENTION],
But it is a statistically supported fact that when the opportunity to commit a crime goes up, then so does crime rates. That's not just me saying things, it is one of the most basic and widely accepted criminological principles.

(I swore that I was goin to stay away from this topic, but I just can't resist this one)

I couldn't agree more. In fact, I would be willing to bet that the majority of the supporters of the right to keep and bear arms would share that belief. But what we like to point out is that almost without exception, these mass shootings have taken place in designated "gun free zones," places where the killer is sure that he will encounter no resistance from his victims. Would it matter if there were armed citizens there to offer resistance? We have no idea, since it hasn't ever happened, but one fact stands out.

There's never been an attempted mass shooting at a gun show.

 

[Robb Stark]

[MENTION=6758]white avenger[/MENTION],

I think you're missing my point. My point is not, in any way, to demonize gun owners. Gun owners are not criminals. Those who partake in gun shows are not criminals. When a group of non-criminals gather together, crime does not rise. But the systematic easing of access towards firearms does cause violent crime to increase. Those who aren't going to commit a crime aren't affected by tighter or looser gun laws. But those on the fence? Those with mental illness? Easier access to firearms does increase the likelihood they'll commit violent crime. How else do you explain that gun violence is exponentially higher in nations with lax gun laws?

More opportunity to commit crime will not affect those predisposed against committing it, but it will affect those who want to.

 

[Ethan Reigns]

But what we like to point out is that almost without exception, these mass shootings have taken place in designated "gun free zones," places where the killer is sure that he will encounter no resistance from his victims. Would it matter if there were armed citizens there to offer resistance? We have no idea, since it hasn't ever happened, but one fact stands out.

There's never been an attempted mass shooting at a gun show.

When the first university shooting from a bell tower occurred in Texas several decades ago, what the news did not report was that many of the students returned fire. I presume this was the model for "Earshot 3ABB18" with Johnathan in the tower. It is pretty easy to open fire at an elevated tower. If the shooter had been at ground level, a lot of students returning fire would have killed other students.

 

[Black Eye Guy]

Ayone who is genuinely interested in the topic, and has not yet reached that level of commitment, I would recommend the book "Control: Exposing The Truth About Guns," by Glenn Beck. His arguments are articulate and based on provable facts, not emotionalism, and, I believe, address just about every argument on the subject.

Yeah Glen Beck voice of reason doesn't really give the impression that book isn't biased.
The dude is a clown.

There's never been an attempted mass shooting at a gun show.

That's great. It's happening at schools though so what's your point?

That line of thinking is mirrored in the entitlement this kid had about women. In response to the #YesAllWomen campaign, men started a #NotAllMen - they were reacting instead of listening, it was my first thought too but when you stop and think objectively rather than defensively you see the point.

Shooting don't happen everywhere isn't a valid reason for anything.
The response to someone Saying there should be tighter gun control should be 'well one never shot up a school' it shouldn't be 'they're trying to control me and take my guns' it should be listening to the problem not shutting it down with crap about how responsible MOST gun owners are.


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[thetopher]

The problem is that the right to guns is written into the costitution (although not really) which was written during a different era. People hide behind it and the whole 'them people are tryin' to take my guns' mentality.

I get, why in a (relative) high crime country like the USA people should have a right to defend themselves with a handgun, hunting rifle, shotgun, or whatever. Defending yourself, your home and your family is a right
But why the hell should people be allowed to buy submacine guns, automatic rifles (even if they have to be illegally modified to become 'automatic') or any of that other crap. There is no logical justification or reasoning for this.

On the other hand we have the distraught father of one of the victims coming out and blaming the 'craven' politicians and the NRA for this shooting, which, I'm sorry, is just plain nuts.
Put the blame where it belongs, fix the system by having better background checks for gun-owners, better care for the mentally ill, stiffer sentences for any criminal using a firearm- that sort of thing.

These are all reasonable precautions that people should listen to, so that the likelihood of this happening again is greatly lowered.
Ignore the nashing and wailing of extremists on both sides- they should never be allowed to dictate the conversation.

Look at the situation itself and what allowed it to happen, don't just use the tragedy to launch into yet another gun rights issue for the sake of it. That helps nobody, least of all the victims.

 

[Black Eye Guy]

Look at the situation itself and what allowed it to happen, don't just use the tragedy to launch into yet another gun rights issue for the sake of it. That helps nobody, least of all the victims.

I disagree, you unfortunately need people to launch into the issue. Pro gun fanatics are too embedded in American politics for it to be done any other way.



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[thetopher]

I disagree, you unfortunately need people to launch into the issue. Pro gun fanatics are too embedded in American politics for it to be done any other way.



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There are fanatics on both sides of the debate- there are people who will jump on an issue and use it to enforce their own vision of what they think a country should be.
They won't bother looking at the facts of the case at all, just blame the other side for everything.
It's happened plenty of times in other countries.

 

[Gum Gnome33]

blaming the 'craven' politicians and the NRA for this shooting, which, I'm sorry, is just plain nuts.
Put the blame where it belongs, fix the system by having better background checks for gun-owners, better care for the mentally ill, stiffer sentences for any criminal using a firearm- that sort of thing.

Actually, the NRA has a staggering amount of political power and influence in this country. It has, especially in recent history, absolutely been successful in controlling senators--influencing their votes with money and rewards vis a vis disclosure in future campaigns. This organization actually spends millions of dollars every year in its effort to avoid imposing tougher background checks, (claiming it's a "slippery slope" and that eventually no one will be able to get a gun).

There is absolutely no doubt that in the US, lobbyists--aka those with money and power-- do a great deal to influence our politicians, who make the laws. Because of the NRA in particular, politicians in Washington actually fear taking anti-gun stances (including even relatively modest measures like tougher background checks). All of this data is readily available.

 

[thetopher]

Actually, the NRA has a staggering amount of political power and influence in this country. It has, especially in recent history, absolutely been successful in controlling senators--influencing their votes with money and rewards vis a vis disclosure in future campaigns. This organization actually spends millions of dollars every year in its effort to avoid imposing tougher background checks, (claiming it's a "slippery slope" and that eventually no one will be able to get a gun).

There is absolutely no doubt that in the US, lobbyists--aka those with money and power-- do a great deal to influence our politicians, who make the laws. Because of the NRA in particular, politicians in Washington actually fear taking anti-gun stances (including even relatively modest measures like tougher background checks). All of this data is readily available.

The man said this within only a day or so of the shooting, when not all the details were known about the case, the police were still trying to assess the situation.

In fact, didn't the police get a headsup that this guy might try something before he did it? Didn't they question him and then dismiss him as 'shy and harmless'?

If you want to blame somebody, start with blaming the people who are actually responsible, this loser who pulled the trigger, or the people who could've stopped it but didn't.

 

[Kean]

I have debated and argued the subject of gun control for most of my adult life, and I have come to one conclusion. I'm right and you're wrong. Unfortunately, there are people with opposite views to mine who feel exactly the same way. That being the case, I see no reason whatsoever to engage in yet another fruitless discussion on the subject.

Anyone who is genuinely interested in the topic, and has not yet reached that level of commitment, I would recommend the book "Control: Exposing The Truth About Guns," by Glenn Beck. His arguments are articulate and based on provable facts, not emotionalism, and, I believe, address just about every argument on the subject.

---------- Post added at 07:34 PM ---------- Previous post was at 06:03 PM ----------



(I swore that I was goin to stay away from this topic, but I just can't resist this one)

I couldn't agree more. In fact, I would be willing to bet that the majority of the supporters of the right to keep and bear arms would share that belief. But what we like to point out is that almost without exception, these mass shootings have taken place in designated "gun free zones," places where the killer is sure that he will encounter no resistance from his victims. Would it matter if there were armed citizens there to offer resistance? We have no idea, since it hasn't ever happened, but one fact stands out.

There's never been an attempted mass shooting at a gun show.

Glenn Beck is a sensationalist, hate monger. He's hardly the balanced voice of reason on this issue.

Also, that gun show point doesn't hold up. I live in a country where not only do citizens not have access to guns (apart from the occasional farmer etc) our police force doesn't carry fire arms either. Using the logic that the lack of guns creates space for these type of crimes to happen then Ireland should be rife with mass murders, but it isn't. We have never had a mass shooting. Or really any kind of shooting that wasn't organised crime or IRA related.

In 2012 (the most recent year I can find for data) 38 people were killed in Ireland through gun related incidents: 12 from homicide, 20 from suicide, 4 from unintentional gun deaths, and 2 from gun deaths by undetermined causes. I have no doubt in my mind that if guns became accessible to the general public those figures would skyrocket.

Not having guns readily available to the general public does make a difference and it would save lives. It won't fix the ultimate problem but just because you can't eradicate something doesn't mean you don't take the steps to make it less harmful. Cancer doesn't have a cure but there are steps that can be taken that can make it less destructive, caught early enough those steps can be curative.

Over 30,000 people die from gun related incidents in the States every year, just over half of those deaths from suicide, and a further half from homicide. Only a fraction of these deaths come from mass shootings. That's thousands of lives that could be saved and so thousands of reasons to look at the accessibility of guns, reasons that have nothing to do with mass shootings, or where they take place, or how having a gun on you could prevent a shooting.