Sarah's lack of gratitude

[Black Eye Guy]

I was reading through a article that Nerd4Hire posted about the gap between Chosen and Fray, and I found this a little later in it:

They have just asked about Sarah comming back to do an episode of Angel.

FURY: We had approached her about doing the 100th episode. Buffy was going to appear in my episode, the episode that I directed, so we put out the offer to Sarah and she politely declined which, I will say, she had her reasons. I think there might have been a death of an aunt or something that she was dealing with but, regardless, I guess Joss kind of felt a little bit put off about the way it was done. There was a perceived notion, on both sides, I can say, between Sarah and Joss of ingratitude for both parties. Joss doesn't feel like Sarah's ever shown the proper amount of gratitude for what he's done for her and her career, and I think she feels the same way. That she feels she was never afforded the credit for Buffy's success and the gratitude from Joss.

I have always felt this, I don't think Sarah has ever shown a love for Buffy, she has never done a Commentary on the DVD's, and she is not in a majority of the DVD extra's. She did not attended the wrap party for the show, and I am sure if she had pushed it she could have stayed another day, instead of flying to go shoot Scooby Doo 2, I mean 7 years together and she could not go to the finale party??

You should read this article its very intresting:
http://www.mikejozic.com/buffyweek6.html

 

[Edmund Blackadder]

I find that a little bit unfair, actually.
Yes, she has been a little bit proccupied with her career outside of the Show and given a certain amount of distance, but come on, this was 7 years of her life. I know after 2 years ijn the same job i want to get away from it......
And as much as Joss is the creative genius behind the show itself, the actors are the ones that made the parts their own.....
With the rate of decay being so high for TV drama Joss should be pleased he had a 7 year stint with her as lead.
I hate how rich people whinge.....i know as a fan i prefer Cordy in the 100th, i'm glad SMG wasn't in 'The Girl in Question' or the finale, and i think its perfectly fair that she moved onto a big movie instead of a party(she can choose to see these people if and when she wants.....it doesnt botherme, i wasn't invited!!)
Joss has, on occasion, come across as a bit of a tyrant, ogre....if he doesn't get his own way he throws a wobbley and lets the fans Know.....for instance...CC, she was worried to tell Joss about her pregnancy for fear of retribution, when she did, what did he do......basically killed her off......
Ohhh i wish i had these kind of problems.......

 

[The Arcane]

Let's not start another one of these "Was Sarah ungrateful" threads. The fact is that we don't know enough about any of the details to really comment.

The problem with perspective is that it is limited to the person giving it. I have great respect for David Fury and absolutely trust that he believes in what he says, but he is only giving an opinion on the matter. Beyond that, even he points out that the problem was one of perception on both sides of the issue. That both Joss and Sarah were possibly making assumptions about the other. Not to mention that this is also an assumption, on his part, that the two of them were assuming anything in the first place. So it very well may all be based on false information.

I do tend to believe that there may have been an issue going on between Joss and Sarah but i also know for a fact that none of us fans know enough about it to go jumping to conclusions on who is to blame, or who is grateful or not.

As for the rest of what BEG mentioned, lack of appearances on DVDs and so on, don't forget that Sarah is a much busier lady than most of the other cast members. She has been working almost nonstop since Buffy ended. Could she have found a few hours to do a commentary? Maybe so, but if the choice was to spend an hour with her friends and family on one of her rare days off or sit in a room talking for a DVD, what would you choose to do? Sarah stuck with the show for seven years and put 110% into it, all the time she was there. Give her a little slack in wanting to get on with her post-Buffy life now.

 

[Black Eye Guy]

Ok I didn't say anything about Buffy effecting her post-buffy life, I was just making an observation that she has showed very little enthusiasm towards the series apart from the bare minimum, although this is my opinion. I also recognise that she is busy with other work, but she is not such a huge star that she has no time what so ever to herself.
And I recognise that SMG put 110% into her acting, I believe that, I could not see anyone else being Buffy, she is absolutely one of the things that make the show, but I just thought it was interesting that Fury would make this observation!

 

[The Arcane]

Ok I didn't say anything about Buffy effecting her post-buffy life, I was just making an observation that she has showed very little enthusiasm towards the series apart from the bare minimum, although this is my opinion. I also recognise that she is busy with other work, but she is not such a huge star that she has no time what so ever to herself.
And I recognise that SMG put 110% into her acting, I believe that, I could not see anyone else being Buffy, she is absolutely one of the things that make the show, but I just thought it was interesting that Fury would make this observation!

This very topic has been discussed in quite a lot of depth over at Whedonesque (here) where Joss himself has posted ...

Always understand that when a member of the staff (even me) gives their perspective of events, that's all it is. Their perspective.

My point being that whilst it is always interesting to read the opinions of people such as David, who obviously have a much greater knowledge of a given situation than any fan does due to them being insiders, they still can only give their own perspectives. That being the case it is unfair to use that perspective to start a thread that judges Sarah. Especially as David's comment allows for both Joss and Sarah to be the ungrateful one.

As for her enthusiasm towards the show since leaving, well i'm only going off the interviews that i've seen her do but whenever she has been asked to talk about her time on Buffy she has had nothing but good things to say. She was willing to come back an do an episode of Angel if it could be worked around her existing movie commitments and she has never said a firm no to returning to the character for the sake of a movie, providing that she thinks the story is good enough to merit it going ahead.

As for not being such a huge star, well from what i've been seeing there has been few occasions in the past few years where she hasn't been involved in one thing or another. maybe she hasn't hit the A-List yet but she sure hasn't been sitting on her hands either.

At the end of the day she showed all the enthusiasm i needed to see whilst she was actually working on the show and since leaving she has never said a bad word about it. That is good enough for me.

 

[Black Eye Guy]

This very topic has been discussed in quite a lot of depth over at Whedonesque (here) where Joss himself has posted ...

Just because it was discussed there does don't mean we can't discuss it here, I personally haven't discussed it with anyone here, although I have only been here since August.

That being the case it is unfair to use that perspective to start a thread that judges Sarah. Especially as David's comment allows for both Joss and Sarah to be the ungrateful one.

Ok in my first post I said:

I have always felt this

, because that was my opinion, I did not say that she definitely did not show gratitude I said I noticed that, then backed up my point with evidence why I felt this.

As for her enthusiasm towards the show since leaving

I did not mention her enthusiasm since leaving, I was talking about during the seven years, all of the commentaries were done during the filming of Buffy.

 

[SpikedBuffy]

Sarah is a great actress, a committed person and a humanitarian.

I do not see a lack of gratitude, just a drive to become a great actress that is not stuck into the confines of one particular character. I see an extremely polite and gracious person who has such determination to be successfull, and puts her career before a lot of things. Yes, she was approached to do an episode of Angel, and couldn't do it. Not because she didn't want to reprise the role of Buffy, but because she was filming another movie in another country.

I'd care more if she was a stuck up priss, but she is far from it. She does a lot for fans, her career, and the outside world that you wouldn't find most actors/actresses doing (unless is directly benefitted themselves)

 

[The Arcane]

Just because it was discussed there does don't mean we can't discuss it here, I personally haven't discussed it with anyone here, although I have only been here since August.

But it is a fact that Sarah's commitment to Buffy has been a heated subject of debate for many years now, especially since the show ended. There are likely some threads already in existence here at Buffy Boards that discuss this topic in great depth.

I simply don't want to see another thread occur that turns into a Sarah Bashing tournament. Thankfully, most people here at BB are wise enough to know th e truth about Sarah but there are a very vocal minority (not necessarily here but around the various Buffy related boards) that love nothing more than to rip into Sarah every chance they get, just because she has dared to have a career that didn't stop at Buffy.

If you felt i was coming down hard on you for offering your opinion then i do apologise but i really hate seeing a great actress like Sarah accused of something she is not guilty off.

 

[Black Eye Guy]

I was just interested in what other people thought of David fury saying this, I agree with you that Sarah is a great actress, Cruel Intentions is one of my all-time fav movies, and I think it is one of her finest pieces of work, But I could see where people would get the idea of Sarah not being grateful to Buffy, That's why I included the stuff above about the extras. But I did not intent this to be a Sarah Bashing thread.

 

[The Arcane]

No, that's fair enough, i get that you didn't intend that to happen.

The thing is that it all too often does. David Duchovny got it in the neck for leaving the X Files, Adrian Paul was slated for his final year on Highlander, even poor old Richard Dean Anderson is having his name dragged through the mud now because certain "fans" can't accept the fact that he thinks eight years on Stargate was enough and he wants to spend more time with his family.

It bothers me how quickly certain so called fans can turn on an actor or actress simply for moving on to a new stage in their career. No actor gets into that profession to play one part for all their lives and most actors, once a show is over, very rarely are expected to continue to work their future careers around it.

Again, this isn't pointed at you, BEG, but there is a culture of nastiness that exists within genre show fandom. Some fans become so obsessed with a given show that they expect the actors involved to live their lives around that one character. It's scary, really. One of the reasons i post only here and at Whedonesque is that the actor bashing is almost nonexistent, unlike at other less educated forums. It's nice to have found somewhere where the fans act like grownups.

 

[Schillaci]

One of the reasons i post only here and at Whedonesque is that the actor bashing is almost nonexistent, unlike at other less educated forums. It's nice to have found somewhere where the fans act like grownups.

I find it just as nauseating when people constantly praise certain actors.

This very topic has been discussed in quite a lot of depth over at Whedonesque (here) where Joss himself has posted ...


Quote:
Always understand that when a member of the staff (even me) gives their perspective of events, that's all it is. Their perspective.


My point being that whilst it is always interesting to read the opinions of people such as David, who obviously have a much greater knowledge of a given situation than any fan does due to them being insiders, they still can only give their own perspectives. That being the case it is unfair to use that perspective to start a thread that judges Sarah. Especially as David's comment allows for both Joss and Sarah to be the ungrateful one.

While Joss is making an observation about perspective in general, I think he is way more corncerned with Fury's suggestion that he(Joss) wasn't that invested in Angel. As it's his(Joss') show and he want's all the praise going. Negative comments(problems) he'll(Joss) try pass off as someone else's fault.

Also, if he doesn't have a problem with Sarah, why doesn't he just say so?

 

[THE BLUE]

I don't think SMG to be blamed. She wasn't listened to at Season 6 and 7 about Spike/Buffy and the potentials. She carried the show for seven years, she should have earnt some respect, but no, Whedon first fabricated a spin-off, a so-called love with terror in it, and an ending where rapists can be a hero. She acted just fine. She could have walked away.

 

[eponinethen]

I don't think SMG to be blamed. She wasn't listened to at Season 6 and 7 about Spike/Buffy and the potentials. She carried the show for seven years, she should have earnt some respect, but no, Whedon first fabricated a spin-off, a so-called love with terror in it, and an ending where rapists can be a hero. She acted just fine. She could have walked away.

That's true, that's probably exactly what Joss was trying to say with the entire show: Rape someone and we'll make you a hero!

Okay I'm sorry, that was mean.. But what you just said was just so far off the point.. I agree that SMG probably hasn't done anything wrong. I haven't read that much about it because I honestly don't care what everyone says about her, she's perfect as Buffy and that's enough for me... But to say that it's ok for her to act badly because Joss made Spike a hero at the end of season 7 (after having him fail/been made a fool out of for years, might I add, not that that has any relevence here), makes no sense what so ever.. Why would that be wrong of Joss, and why oh why would it be disrespectful towards Sarah?

 

[The Arcane]

I find it just as nauseating when people constantly praise certain actors.

As do i. I'm just as likely to call somebody when i consider them to be in the wrong as i am to defend them when i think they are being judged unfairly. Nobody on this planet, be they an actor or anything else, is above saying or doing the wrong thing. I just like to know all the facts before i judge somebody, then i'll give my opinion.

In the case of what we are discussing in this thread, Sarah isn't at fault, as far as i'm concerned.

While Joss is making an observation about perspective in general, I think he is way more corncerned with Fury's suggestion that he(Joss) wasn't that invested in Angel. As it's his(Joss') show and he want's all the praise going. Negative comments(problems) he'll(Joss) try pass off as someone else's fault.

Also, if he doesn't have a problem with Sarah, why doesn't he just say so?

And i think you can't judge that from the single (as you said yourself, general) comment he made at Whedonesque. Have a look at Whedonesque for the post David Fury himself made on the matter. It adds more light to the topic in question.

As for your more general comments about Joss, in my experience he has never been shy in taking the blame for his mistakes so i don't know where you are getting that impression from at all.

 

[nerd4hire]

On Whedon not being that invested in Angel, I think it should be noted Tim Minear later called David Fury to task on that one in a fan Q & A session, and offered all the examples of Angel input that came directly from Joss. It was considerable. Tim Minear was the Show-Runner of Angel for awhile, so he would know.

Fury later admitted to being wrong on that matter in a post at Whedonesque.

 

[THE BLUE]

That's true, that's probably exactly what Joss was trying to say with the entire show: Rape someone and we'll make you a hero!

Okay I'm sorry, that was mean.. But what you just said was just so far off the point.. I agree that SMG probably hasn't done anything wrong. I haven't read that much about it because I honestly don't care what everyone says about her, she's perfect as Buffy and that's enough for me... But to say that it's ok for her to act badly because Joss made Spike a hero at the end of season 7 (after having him fail/been made a fool out of for years, might I add, not that that has any relevence here), makes no sense what so ever.. Why would that be wrong of Joss, and why oh why would it be disrespectful towards Sarah?

Well, wasn't it what happened? Joss is the creator of the show which gives him the control over the characters. He did create "Spike raped Buffy" storyline and he also created Spike "became hero year after raping Buffy" storyline. Therefore, it is as well as to say, "he raped her but you know he had his reasons, anyway, now he is a hero". And that was a clear and successful message because with the medium he got (the series) he succeeded in delivering it. People do believe that Spike had his reasons when attempting it ('he loved her and wanted to prove it' argument) and Buffy asked for it. They blame her because he raped her, because she was raped! And, whatismore, as if this is not enough punishment, she says "I love you" to him. Because it is very noble to rape Buffy and save the world. Isn't it? Sorry, my mistake.

 

[buffetofsporks]

Well, to shed some light on the subject ... It was an attempted rape. I mean, I'm not saying that's in any way less horrific, but let us not forget that Spike didn't rape Buffy. He was in a state of complete confusion and disregard and he made a mistake. I mean, he went crazy because of it. So Buffy forgave him, isn't that her decision? I think it says a lot about a person to be able to forgive something that huge ...

I agree with those that say that we really don't have enough info on the whole situation. I love Sarah as an actress, and I think she's done a lot for the show. Give her a break already, guys.

 

[The Arcane]

I thought this thread was going a little off topic but i think this is a really interesting subject to discuss so i've started a thread over in the Buffy Season 6 section about the "rape" for anyone who is interested.

 

[Schillaci]

Well, wasn't it what happened?

No, no... What happened was, these green alien twazzoks came to earth and started shouting "rape, rape". Naturally the kindly humans obliged the green aliens and stuck it to them... Hellz, did you not see that? You must have been watching, Dummy, the umpire-slayer.

Joss is the creator of the show which gives him the control over the characters. He did create "Spike raped Buffy" storyline and he also created Spike "became hero year after raping Buffy" storyline.

I never seen either of these storylines.

Therefore, it is as well as to say, "he raped her but you know he had his reasons, anyway, now he is a hero".

Ignoring the fact that you are completely wrong. Let me ask you. If Spike indeed raped someone, say 100 years before, and then spent the next 100 years trying to atone for that. Saving thousands of lives, being a completely different person. Would he still not have been a hero?(Not that I ever think he was)

And that was a clear and successful message because with the medium he got (the series) he succeeded in delivering it. People do believe that Spike had his reasons when attempting it ('he loved her and wanted to prove it' argument) and Buffy asked for it. They blame her because he raped her, because she was raped! And, whatismore, as if this is not enough punishment, she says "I love you" to him. Because it is very noble to rape Buffy and save the world. Isn't it?

:violin:

Sorry, my mistake.

No problem, I'm glad you realise it was your mistake.

In a weak attempt to redeem myself in this thread and bring it back on track. Sarah Michelle Gellar acts for a living. She's dedicated at her job. Any fool can see that. She is not obligated to spend any of her time outside of whatever job she is working to give commentary on dvds or whatever. Perhaps she was never offered the chance to do commentary or whatever. Either way, its her life.

 

[The Arcane]

People do believe that Spike had his reasons when attempting it ('he loved her and wanted to prove it' argument) and Buffy asked for it. They blame her because he raped her, because she was raped! And, whatismore, as if this is not enough punishment, she says "I love you" to him. Because it is very noble to rape Buffy and save the world. Isn't it? Sorry, my mistake.

Just to back up Psychotic Jackass on this point, i think you are saying that if people see what happened on the show then that is somehow a message to us in the real world that rape is okay, assuming you have sufficient cause and the girl asks for it. For me that is far from the truth.

I would defend Spike in this one specific case, due to the nature of what he was at the time of the attack. A vampire. However i would never, ever translate that into the real world and use Spike as an example of why one human being is entitled to rape another.

However, in this case we are talking about a soulless vampire in a situation that would have been confusing to even the most level headed of guys. You cannot begin to compare that to human rape and i think pretty much all the fans would not confuse the two.

Again though, if you want to take this to a more relevant thread then it's being discussed here.